DM quest limits

[Tanman]

I am inclined to agree with Lord Cove and Dezza. The majority of the time, not a lot of people show up for quests that they sign up for. I remember seeing your character Kyoro on that  quest from Steverimmer when we were nearing the end.

Look who signed up for the fist event:

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/calendar/event-view.asp?eventid=2412&year=2006&month=11

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/calendar/event-view.asp?eventid=2531&year=2006&month=11
(and this was who actually turned up...there was two or three more)

The point all of us here are saying is turn up.

I thought that I will never get a chance to play a quest at all. But just meeting new people looking at the calendar you'll get there.
Oh and look out for spontaneous quests they are around

[Sab Kaylag]

I've been in two spontanious (to my knowledge anyway) quests so far ... neither of which started with me ... I just happened to be at a spot where a DM showed up and started running something nice and small.  Both were fun and im still looking for someone on account of the first one.  oh and i just got my character on the 2nd so *shrugs* it's all luck and placement.  

By the way having more descriptions for the quests WOULD be really really apreciated especially as some are level limited.  Thanks

[memilies]

I know theres no way to do this but I do kind of wish there was repercussion to signing up for a quest and not showing up for it. Like after a few times of not showing you are not allowed to sign up on quests again for a month, or if you have a habit of signing up and not showing you aren't allowed to roll the dice for an empty slot.. just anything to keep the list of names from being so long if half or more of them have no real intention of being there

I say this because when I see that long, long list of names every time a new quest shows up my impulse is simply not to bother (I'm also not such a good role player yet that i want to be a part of a group at the expense of someone else who might have added more to it, so i don't want to get in by a lucky roll of the dice or have people wishing someone else was there but i took her slot)  if most of these people are just signing up and not showing up and have a habit of continually doing this then how many more (probably newish like me) players are also being scared off?

Remember I said I know this isn't possible (or probably popular) so you don't have to list the millions of reasons why. I'm just venting.

[minerva]

Memiles: We all had to start somewhere, please do not discount your role playing abilities. If you are trying, that is what matters.  I highly doubt others would be "wishing someone else was there but i took her slot" but more.. "cool ... a new person to get to know".

[Drizzlin]

*gets ready to duck*

If you go look at the quests, you will see the same names for every single quest. I think that the xps given for quests might need to be looked at and lowered/removed. It fixed a major part of the CDQ quests.

I think this would make DM quests more for people who want to RP and be apart of Layo and weed out the few who are signing up for every single DM Quest. IMO some do that for the easy xps at the higher levels.

Just my opinion.

[Dorganath]

Wouldn't that make people then just bash for XP and levels?

[ThrainSil]

hmm Drizzlin is not altogether wrong.  But I always wonder what I would do if I had time to make all quest?

[Acacea]

I'm pretty sure the same-name signups thing has been addressed repeatedly. They often don't even show up!  If you actually ATTEND--you, yourself, attend many quests and see the same names every time, number one, hey! You're one of them! Two, assuming that they do it just for XP is a gross generalization. Maybe they don't like grinding and like, I don't know, stories and plots and roleplay and influencing the status of the world?  XP is granted for quests because it is FAR more character impacting and skill using than hitting a zombie over the head until it falls over. IT IS HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.  Sorry I can't help but be a little annoyed at this line of thought--it just keeps coming up and while some might say, "that means its a real problem!" it's really just because it is the fundamental nature of most to, when unable to have something for whatever reason, wish to ensure that no one else does either.  Some people go on quests just to leech XP, fine, they sit there and do nothing except stare at a wall or something and get XP at the end. Whatever. There aren't THAT many, and most of those can be coaxed into involvement with some effort from the more outgoing characters.   But wait! That person has been all over the world, gone back in time, fought Blood, recovered artifacts, been a spy, become a vampire, taken over a legacy, defeated the lich, been transformed into an orc, foiled the soul mother, helped a merking, saw a goddess, saved a port, redeemed a fallen paladin, realigned the planes, used their skills in combat and mental battles and has gotten a lot of XP for it! Clearly they should be level ten like my character because questing is a really silly way to level!  Please tell me how exactly it makes sense to give XP to grinders that hit the same spots over and over again amassing wealth and levels without ever attending world events, but nix actual skill usage and world influence as a means of advancement? Uh...   Perhaps I'm just defensive as well as incredulous because my character's advancement has been almost totally from quests. Yeah! Powerquester! Wait, not. She's been involved in a LOT of things and if she got there because she killed the same spawn of giants 3948572938754203852 times I would not be playing on this server.

[ThrainSil]

ouch! this thread is cutting close to the bone. Im out.

[Acacea]

Heh right, after I had a snack and a PC Screen Headache eased the rant remains unedited but rather added to here--the frustration was not actually targetted to someone suggesting something or even idly considering it, but rather the fact that the same things keep being repeated and I'm not sure why. People in any of the many camps (there are not just two, as implied earlier) paint what they see as the problem in very broad strokes that lump the good in with the bad no matter who is being talked about.

My character hasn't been in all the quests I listed; I just tossed some out that I could think of to demonstrate that questing XP is granted for a reason--it's earned, and usually involves more of the raking over the coals than simply running at something, dying, running back, etc.

Ah! But see, does that imply that people who DON'T quest all just run die run die? No, they don't--I didn't actually start questing until some of my friends left the server and a lot of her development and fun went out the window. She was never meant to be a leveller and people giggled at the thought of her ever being epic. There are many different ways to advance legitimately that are encouraged, whether with roleplayed adventures that have no need for GMs at all (what's better than being able to have your own fun?)--which can be simplified to just bashing and grinding over and over again, questing (dynamic and world impacting)--which can be simplified to simply gaining huge lumps of XP for playing tagalong or 'powerquesting' etc.

It's just not that simple. Everyone is going to screw something up and not everyone can ever be happy. If we take out one means of doing something, which is arguably the most likely, also we would have to take out the others.

The post was not made to actually slap anyone but was more of a waspish "gaaaaaaaah not agaain" from someone who does try to make reasoned responses that can be read for their merit rather than ignored for their tone. I just read too many forum posts to not occasionally shake my fist and cry to the heavens, "WHY?!"

Just usually I do it without typing it, which can get funny looks from neighbors.

[Drizzlin]

Dorganath - 12/5/2006  6:27 PM

Wouldn't that make people then just bash for XP and levels?

Maybe, but the "bashers" already bash. What it would do is also remove the leechers from DM quests, opening up slots for more people who want to RP and contribute to the world of Layonara. Do not get me wrong, I love xps just as much as the next, but I have been on this server for almost three years with the same PC for a reason, the RP.

I want to make more DM events, I have always loved them. I love the time and energy the DMs put into them, and the RP I get out of them. I also love the XPs....but if I had to get rid of one of the things I loved, to keep the rest...I choose the xps.

[Etinfall]

Acacea-But wait! That person has been all over the world, gone back in time, fought Blood, recovered artifacts, been a spy, become a vampire, taken over a legacy, defeated the lich, been transformed into an orc, foiled the soul mother, helped a merking, saw a goddess, saved a port, redeemed a fallen paladin, realigned the planes, used their skills in combat and mental battles and has gotten a lot of XP for it! Clearly they should be level ten like my character because questing is a really silly way to level!
    I surely do not wish people shouldn't be able to join quests. But I am jealous that they have done all those things to help shape the world. I am jealous that I have been here for over two years and active for at least 80% of that time and not been on one world changing quest. It gets frustrating at times and you might get tired of it but people need to vent a little. The author of this post brought up points in a friendly way. We love this server and want to be more involved but find it hard to be. The DM team is top notch and when I read something about a awesome quest I get excited and try to join quests. I might get to sign up for a couple and am even more lucky to be able to attend. Not the DM's fault, not Leanther's fault, not my fault. It just happens that way.
  I understand that you are sick of seeing posts like this, just look at as someone who is a tad upset that he/she isn't lucky enough to get to be involved. Being sarcastic doesn't help much at all.
 
  We do need to remember that on very regular occasions the Layonara team announces something new, something cool, and new ways to help us get involved.

[Acacea]

That's not a fix at all, though, which was the point--it's not a case of "would you rather go on the quest for roleplay and take out the xp or refuse and be a powerquesting leech?" because that is the kind of biased question that is in the original topic. The response to, "sure, but the bashers already bash" would obviously be "well the leechers already leech." And I don't think there are nearly as many as is painted, especially if one is judging solely by signups which is not an accurate sample.

That's just removing the reward for shaping the world and giving it only to things that are, in-character wise, less rewarding. If it would be done it would have to be done on BOTH sides, because to take it out of the "ideal" creates a picture in which the character who have been in the quests for stories and have their hands in the world's development can be taken out with a single fireball from the guy that "will just bash anyway." Good. Let them bash anyway, maybe that's just what they like to do. But remove the XP reward.

To turn it around--Don't get me wrong, I love XP just as much as the next guy, but I've been on the server here for over a year with a single PC for a reason! The roleplay! I like going out in groups outside of quests and having fun in the dungeons and encounters of the world, and the roleplay I get out of them...I like advancing too but hey if I had to remove one thing to keep the rest (though the times I've actually been able to go are few), I'd choose the XP.

I'm not suggesting to punish the people who can't make quests by removing their means of advancement. Actually, the opposite. Don't remove the advancement on the other side, either, but if that's something you are really attached to then in order to make it even it's clear that both would need to be done. And then no one levels. And we can say "oh I don't care about levels" all we like, and for most of us we're not super attached to them, but for everyone progress is nice. The ones fighting the wars of the world are the last ones I would punish in terms of progress. I don't want to punish either side, I want any character to be able to do whichever they like and advance doing it, not be stagnate because they can't do either, because one or the other camp doesn't like the other.

I -want- more people to be able to go on quests and I would like additional means of advancement to choose from. That is, at least from where I'm sitting, a large difference from shutting off each of them because someone can't fit into existing ones.

[Acacea]

Etinfall the rant was not even at the author of the topic--which was originally desiring to limit the number of quests a single PC could attend, which while not really practical still has the basic motivation of "let others advance, too." The frustration is not born of others wanting to participate--in the past I've tried to make suggestions that would help put more people on the wagon for doing things that are in the 'spirit of Layonara,' as it is so elusively called--but rather taking it away from everyone, whether good players and roleplayers or not. I am always in favor of "help others get there too" way way before "make sure no one gets there regardless of earnings." Both sides really need to be looked at before making sweeping changes.

Edit--And in the end your post acknowledges a certain type of person needs to vent sometimes...but misses that it was essentially undirected venting that you were responding to. As with the topic, things do not just apply to a small few.

[Dorganath]

Drizzlin - 12/5/2006  9:53 PM  

Dorganath - 12/5/2006  6:27 PM  Wouldn't that make people then just bash for XP and levels?

 Maybe, but the "bashers" already bash. What it would do is also remove the leechers from DM quests, opening up slots for more people who want to RP and contribute to the world of Layonara. Do not get me wrong, I love xps just as much as the next, but I have been on this server for almost three years with the same PC for a reason, the RP.   I want to make more DM events, I have always loved them. I love the time and energy the DMs put into them, and the RP I get out of them. I also love the XPs....but if I had to get rid of one of the things I loved, to keep the rest...I choose the xps.  

 I'm sorry...I just don't follow this reasoning.
  Bashers will bash. What I'm saying is that those of us who don't want to bash their way through levels *raises his hand* would be eternally at Level 5 or whatever. That pretty much turns everyone who wants to advance their character's levels into a basher. My point had nothing to do with the current group of "bashers" but rather those of us (who I consider the majority here) who wish to both RP and see their characters grow, advance, become better than they are, and in a mechanical sense, gain levels. I'm not saying that gain should happen quickly. I'm not saying it should come from RP only or bashing only, but more likely a healthy mix of both as it applies to each individual character.
  I see your point here, about how it helped the CDQ problem (which was one of abuse and GM shortage, really), but what this does not address is the basic question of: Without XP for GM quests, how does one advance without bashing?
  You're missing one other part of the equation here.
  This world needs people to advance their character levels. Take the last campaign's finale that happened in late June of this year. a small group of characters held off hoards of demons pouring from a bloodwell (not a bloodpool, but a bloodwell), while another small group infiltrated Sinthar Bloodstone's fortress and killed him.
  This could not have been done by a group of low-level adventurers who concentrated more on questing than mindless bashing. Taken one step further, the "basher" crowd who didn't really ever go on quests would probably not have been interested in going on a plot quest, especially since it wouldn't give XP.
  A corollary point here is that not all quests are pure RP. My character is in an RP-heavy quest series that has been going on for a long time, but for very reasonable and plot-important reasons, there have been periods of EXTREME combat, and these situations could not have been handled by characters who care more about participation than bashing for XP.
  As for leeches...as a GM, I'd say that the leeches are the minority. People who go on quests, by far, wish to participate and be involved. In doing so they improve themselves, gain experience and become better....more than they were.
  Let's face it...advancing in levels is fun, it's rewarding, and it's a decent, if rather discontinuous way of indicating relative skill, ability and prowess. However, by taking XP out of all quests, you essentially force the only means of advancement to be bashing....and at that point, we might as well call ourselves WoW.

[Acacea]

Did I say I needed them? Did I say it was why others went? No, that is an inaccurate assumption based on something more like, "People like to quest, quests give XP, people must go on quests to get XP."

If you took away the XP from grinding, by definition they wouldn't be grinders anymore, now would they?

It's really easy to get self righteous about things like removing rewards from people who deserve it, because it implies that one has the correct values and sacrifices where anyone who argues to give credit where credit is due is merely an XP craving fanatic.

Great, you don't need it, fantastic. Donate it to the people who can't make quests and would like to advance in a way that makes sense for their character, instead of presuming to take it away from everyone who has earned them.

Edit--Obviously this post was a direct response to the one quoting me, not the one quoting Dorg.

[Drizzlin]

My wife is banned from my PC. She apparently logged in on my PC to fix the post issue she had. I made the last posts from her log in on my PC. Do not hold her accountable for me!! hehe

I will have to have her delete those posts and I will cut and paste them into a new post to avoid confusion in the future.

[ThrainSil]

We all want to be the protagonist (sp) so we all want to lvl asap to keep pace with the others.  This is normal and healthy I think.  people go on quests for a lot of reasons but EXP is one of the main ones. No ? you say? well ask yourself how many quests you would do for no DM exp?

First time I went on a quest I thought the DM was drunk for giving so much XP.  90% of the characters did nothinging because the other 10% yapped all the time.  So I sat there, bashed 2 things and got a wild amount of EXP.  Reduce the quest EXP gain from DMs,  that will stop a lot of the quest leeches from making quests a dull (because they yap all the time) and make people who want to RP stay on the quests. No need to reward the fast type crowd and further more there is often plenty of EXP just bashing on a quest. The DM exp award is great, I love it, but I see no reason for it.

[Drizzlin]

Acacea - 12/5/2006 11:17 PM

Acacea - 12/5/2006 11:17PM

That's just removing the reward for shaping the world and giving it only to things that are, in-character wise, less rewarding. If it would be done it would have to be done on BOTH sides, because to take it out of the "ideal" creates a picture in which the character who have been in the quests for stories and have their hands in the world's development can be taken out with a single fireball from the guy that "will just bash anyway." Good. Let them bash anyway, maybe that's just what they like to do. But remove the XP reward.

The reward in itself is the shaping of the world. I would rather have the name of my PC hanging from a sign in Prantz and talked about through the world by PCs, than 50k xps. If you need XPs to make you want to be apart of the world that we play in, it is a bit sad. While I understand people want the xps (even I do) for quests, all I am saying I don't need them. As far as the "leechers" others have mentioned, if there are no xps to leech, by definition they wouldn't be leechers now would they?

Dorganath - 12/5/2006 6:27 PM Wouldn't that make people then just bash for XP and levels?

I'm sorry...I just don't follow this reasoning.

Bashers will bash.  What I'm saying is that those of us who don't want to bash their way through levels *raises his hand* would be eternally at Level 5 or whatever. That pretty much turns everyone who wants to advance their character's levels into a basher.  My point had nothing to do with the current group of "bashers" but rather those of us (who I consider the majority here) who wish to both RP and see their characters grow, advance, become better than they are, and in a mechanical sense, gain levels. I'm not saying that gain should happen quickly.  I'm not saying it should come from RP only or bashing only, but more likely a healthy mix of both as it applies to each individual character.

I see your point here, about how it helped the CDQ problem (which was one of abuse and GM shortage, really), but what this does not address is the basic question of:  Without XP for GM quests, how does one advance without bashing?  

You're missing one other part of the equation here.

This world needs people to advance their character levels.  Take the last campaign's finale that happened in late June of this year. a small group of characters held off hoards of demons pouring from a bloodwell (not a bloodpool, but a bloodwell), while another small group infiltrated Sinthar Bloodstone's fortress and killed him.

This could not have been done by a group of low-level adventurers who concentrated more on questing than mindless bashing.  Taken one step further, the "basher" crowd who didn't really ever go on quests would probably not have been interested in going on a plot quest, especially since it wouldn't give XP.

A corollary point here is that not all quests are pure RP.  My character is in an RP-heavy quest series that has been going on for a long time, but for very reasonable and plot-important reasons, there have been periods of EXTREME combat, and these situations could not have been handled by characters who care more about participation than bashing for XP.

As for leeches...as a GM, I'd say that the leeches are the minority. People who go on quests, by far, wish to participate and be involved.  In doing so they improve themselves, gain experience and become better....more than they were.

Let's face it...advancing in levels is fun, it's rewarding, and it's a decent, if rather discontinuous way of indicating relative skill, ability and prowess. However, by taking XP out of all quests, you essentially force the only means of advancement to be bashing....and at that point, we might as well call ourselves WoW.

I agree with you on all points Dor. There is nothing to argue in what you said, nor am I trying to argue. Originally I was agreeing with the person that said the same people sign up over and over. I never called them leechers. In fact most of them are super active on the quests they go on, but I agree they go on every quest they can. Is that a problem? I'm not sure. Is it an issue to some people, apparently. As far as needing higher level PCs for certain quests...that is why there are level resrictions set by the DMs for each quest. I was around when 20 was unthinkable here. The difficulty of the quests were tailored for the level of the PCs out there.

I am really a 3rd person in this "debate" if you will. I play a rotten, hated, nasty drow. I get voted out or asked to leave just about every single quest I go to, both IC and OOC. Mainly by the same PCs that sign up for every single quest out there. I don't blame them nor am I disgruntal. It is not their fault,and I accept the negative affects of the PC I choose to play. In fact I love the treatment from a RP prespective. The only solution for the dilema of my personal problem is to hope and wait a DM to run some "shady" quests that Paladins and goodys would not want to go on.

I am also big into crafting, and I really do not go out and "bind/grind" for xps. I go out and collect my CNR, which brings in the xps for me. Sure when i'm close to a level I might go out and finish it up, but I hate grinding and xp. EQ killed the grinder in me =)

Either way I am happy with the way things are. I was just trying to add and give my opinion on how to get rid of what others called "leechers". In doing so I said I don't need xps for DM quests.


EDIT: I hope I fixed this.

[Drizzlin]

ThrainSil - 12/5/2006  9:18 PM

We all want to be the protagonist (sp) so we all want to lvl asap to keep pace with the others.  This is normal and healthy I think.  people go on quests for a lot of reasons but EXP is one of the main ones. No ? you say? well ask yourself how many quests you would do for no DM exp?

First time I went on a quest I thought the DM was drunk for giving so much XP.  90% of the characters did nothinging because the other 10% yapped all the time.  So I sat there, bashed 2 things and got a wild amount of EXP.  Reduce the quest EXP gain from DMs,  that will stop a lot of the quest leeches from making quests a dull (because they yap all the time) and make people who want to RP stay on the quests. No need to reward the fast type crowd and further more there is often plenty of EXP just bashing on a quest. The DM exp award is great, I love it, but I see no reason for it.

I also agree completely with what you are saying here. I am one of these kind of people that call foul, even when I am recieving the insane rewards from the foul. I feel dirty when I line up at the end of a DM quest, but it is a good dirty. Is it rewarding? Yes. I love the quests and I love the XPs from them, but I know when something is "too" good.

I don't go to quests for the xps, but I also do not avoid them because of the xps.