Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means

[Pen N Popper]

There was some discussion on IRC today about the sign outside of Hempstead and what it means to the "evil" races listed on it.  The summary:  

It is a violation of server rules for a PC of a race listed to enter Hempstead, whether they're disguised or not, without GM supervision.  There are apparently some "famous" PCs that this does not apply to, but for the rest of us it's a no-go.

Is this an accurate statement?

[lonnarin]

I have no say in this policy, though I do have a very strong opinion of it as it...

Honestly, I just wish there were NO exceptions.  I play 3 monstrous races and I don't lose any sleep at night not being able to enter because the law is the law.  I chose to play that race, and I deal with the card I was given.  If anybody's too "famous" to obey the law because of some secret byline or World Leader status, then they are setting a horribly wrong example, and should be considered a very famous lawbreaker subject to prosecution.  Let's make an anology...

Mother says "no cookies in bed" to her two children tucked in at night, then hands a cookie to one of them.  The other asks, "can I have a cookie?" and she says no.  He asks "why does he have a cookie?" and she says, "I'm not saying".  He asks "what can I do to get a cookie?" and she says "Nothing, no cookies in bed for you!"  The other child grins wide at the first one, crumbs on his lips and chin, melted chocolate streaked on his cheeks and laughs.  The first child cries... bitter, then goes and sneaks a cookie after he thinks mom is asleep.  He hops into bed, takes a bite and the lights flip on!  Mother stands there with the paddle, snatches the cookie and tans the child's hide.  "I thought I told you NO COOKIES IN BED!"  *thwack thwack thwack*.  The child cries himself to sleep, meanwhile, Mother hands his brother another cookie, and says...  "No Cookies in Bed!"

Any parents, teachers, or critical thinkers, tell me... will the paddled child come to understand that what he did was wrong, or will this just build resentment until the child runs onto the forum and posts "Mother loves him best!  This isn't fair!"?  Is it really worth the inevitable forum-drama that will result?

[Dorganath]

It is a violation of Port Hempstead law, not server rules, for any member of a race listed on that sign to enter Port Hempstead who has not been given an exemption by the city's authority.  

I thought this question was well-addressed in a previous thread on this very subject.

[twidget658]

In my mind WL's put the community first in most cases. WL's understand that it is the community that makes the world tick. WL's do not travel in the same "group/cliques" day after day after day and never alter this travel and/or adventure. WL's branch out and work with others in the community, not just their friends, to welcome them and to help them out when and where they can.

 
 If the community doesn't know the WL, then I feel that the WL is not holding themselves to this requirement.
 
 

WL's set the standard for role-playing and do not get carried away in hack and slash and/or doing the same routine over and over. WL's support the teams, the world, and the community, they don't tear it apart; that does not mean they can't disagree with decisions or that they shouldn't give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback because they should.

[/COLOR]
 
 The metric for being a good WL is RP, community involvement, getting the new players that join to have a reason to keep coming back and getting them involved in the world.
 
 

World Leaders are players that support and protect the community as well as enhance and define RP in the world. They are some of the ones that the teams rely on in order to keep this a great place to game for families and friends as well as the community as a whole. These players will have shown that they are first-rate role-players as well as the fact that they support the community and world. Your actions in game and out of game reflect on Layonara and as such you will be held to a high standard. If these standards are violated then the World Leader status of the character and the player will be revoked.

 
 

World Leaders must continue to be active in the world at all times. Once a character becomes a World Leader that means the player must continue to play in Layonara at least somewhat frequently or that status will be removed at the discretion of the GM Team. The World Leader character must be played at least five hours a month and not just played during GM ran quests. They should be a part of the community and not just on GM events.

 
 Get out a be seen. Be an influence on the other players. Help them develop and grow their PC.
 
 

The World Leader player must be in the game or within the community environment (IRC, Forums, game) at least ten hours a month.

 
 

WL's are held to a higher standard by the GM Team and most assuredly me. They do not break community or server rules nor do they "stretch" the rules to the point of nearly breaking them. We expect them to be great RP'ers and to be constantly RP'ing and setting the standard and TEACHING others how to RP better; not meta-gaming or any of that silly stuff. They take in to account (and RP) deity relations (as they are listed), they take in to account factions, lore, history, and all of those things that would cause situations to be altered. We expect them to take others under their reach to teach them the world and introduce them to new things, without breaking server rules of course. We expect them to support the team and the world and the community, not tear it apart and/or spread rumors and gossip behind the scene.

 
 Along with the topic of this thread, an IC reason to 'break' a rule is in a sense, stretching the rule. I would think that there would have to be a huge CDQ or some other circumstance, perhaps approval from Ed, Dorg or L.
 
 

WL's work to ensure others in the community stay around and have fun while helping them improve in RP'ing and making new friends within the community. They are friendly and they communicate well with others and they help out where and when they can and it does not interfere with something they are doing at that time or coming very shortly.

[/COLOR]
 
 Make their journals! Use the WL tools that are given. The only way these tools can be used is to be in the thick of things.
 
 

WL ALWAYS put community before fun and/or action and/or RP. But quite often this would happen as that is what a WL does.

 
 

WL never travel with the same group or friends. Far from it, they have friends just like all of us and should be able to travel with them just like everybody else. But when they do they allow others to travel with them when/where it makes sense and they do not allow those that are not a "friend" of the group get kicked around or disrespected by said group. They try to help the person along to make sure that individual has fun.

 
 I feel that this has sort of been taken for granted for various reasons. It is up to each WL to adhere to the requirements that L has set in place. And since we can provide feedback to GM's, then WL's need feedback as well so they can improve.
 
 Edit: This may be moved to another thread or more appropriate place. I put it here since the WL's were mentioned.

[ycleption]

It is a violation of Port Hempstead law, not server rules, for any member of a race listed on that sign to enter Port Hempstead who has not been given an exemption by the city's authority.  

Just a clarification though, when characters are flaunting the fact that they are a banned race in Hempstead, constitutes metagaming/exploiting the mechanics to the extent that it is against server rules, correct?

Since the other thread didn't address the OOC aspects of the issue, I would suggest that this is a similar kind of issue to defacing a temple in absence of a DM, that should not be accepted by the community as being within the spirit of the server.



---------------
Edit: I've been pretty outspoken on this issue, and I hope I don't come across too strongly... it's something I've spoken to a number of players about, and want to make sure people know my reasons, aside from just that it's metagaming and it's the rule.

First, I miss the atmosphere of Vehl right after v3. When all the monstrous races congregated there, it had such a different feel, and with the re-opening of subraces, I think it could be a great place to RP if players on monstrous races didn't just go to Hempstead because they can.

Second, it puts people in an RP bind, having to deal with the OOC reality that the guards aren't going to come and arrest someone, when the IC assumption should be that they will... I really honestly just don't know how to RP with monstrous characters sitting in the middle of the square, when I've already played over the scenario before with that character.

Third and finally, I think running amok in Hempstead is disrespectful to all the players of banned races who observe the rules, and suffer the additional effort of crafting in other cities, who RP being an outcast, and/or invest heavily in Hide/MS(and never are in the open) and RP stowing away on ships or whatnot to get in Hempstead (especially since Ed confirmed that fully covered people would be asked to remove coveringby the gate guards). Playing a monstrous race is not supposed to be easy (those heavy penalties to cha and int should have RP meaning), and when some choose to take shortcuts, it's unfair to the players that RP that the law will be enforced.

[Hellblazer]

Just a clarification though, when characters are flaunting the fact that they are a banned race in Hempstead, constitutes metagaming/exploiting the mechanics to the extent that it is against server rules, correct?

Well I'm sure that could be easily remedied with a shoot first ask question later, script on the guards of hempstead. *evil grin*

If the exception is note worthy, an item could be given to him that the guards would automatically check for in their inventory; if not found, open fire and calling for back up depending on the level of the offender.

Call it a check point.

[Pen N Popper]

Quote from the other thread...

  Quote:
 [table=head;sort=1a,2,3]   It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct? |
 [/table]
Yes, you can assume that. But as you know, we do not have GM possessed guards 24/7, so if everybody just waltzes through the gate and pretend nothing happens then there's little we can do apart from having a GM presence there all the time or actively enforcing it should we become aware.
And I would think people would agree that GM time is better spent on running quests, then policing Hempstead 24/7.
 
Cost/benefit assessment: high cost, low benefit.
 
Half-giants are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead, so you'd be turned away at the gates, as would a dark elf.

The reason I asked for clarification in the first place is exactly this.  To me this means that -every- race listed on the sign (halforcs, orcs, goblins, kobold, halfgiants, drow, etc.) and those not listed (human, elf, etc.) would all be required to RP that they were asked by the guards to show their faces.  If any monstrous race enters Hempstead it is in fact metagaming.  

I personally don't like this inability to disguise oneself.  Of course there is no disguise for a massive halfgiant so either way my PC(s) would be excluded.  (Which I agree should be the case.)

[Dorganath]

Just a clarification though, when characters are flaunting the fact that they are a banned race in Hempstead, constitutes metagaming/exploiting the mechanics to the extent that it is against server rules, correct?

Since the other thread didn't address the OOC aspects of the issue, I would suggest that this is a similar kind of issue to defacing a temple in absence of a DM, that should not be accepted by the community as being within the spirit of the server.

Largely correct.  It's definitely metagaming to simply walk in the front gate as a member of a monstrous race and expect no sort of resistance.  It is, however, an entirely different thing to get past the guards by, for example, sneaking or going invisible.  And yes, it is similar, though not quite as serious, as defacing temples in front of the temple staff when there's no GM on.

On disguises....the "disguise" of a hood might work well to shadow one's features making it more difficult to recognize their face, but during the day, it would not even come close to concealing their skin color.  A decent spot roll can defeat a hood-only "disguise".  Half-orcs and half-giants are big and shaped oddly, and no amount of hoods or helmets are going to change that.

[Gulnyr]

It is, however, an entirely different thing to get past the guards by, for example, sneaking or going invisible.

I have two comments about this.

First, NWN sneaking is broken.  It is silly to think someone could "hide" and walk along an open road and through a narrow gate without being seen.  That doesn't mean it isn't possible to sneak into towns, just that what we usually think of as sneaking in-game would not work; you can't hide in the open.

Second, I think invisibility would work magnificently in the real world where it would be a new and unusual thing, but in a world where magic is real, invisibility (and illusions and other such magical disguises) would probably be detected at any actual check point.  Sure, some little village probably doesn't have mages on guard, but a rich city like Port Hempstead can not only afford them but wouldn't be able to guard squat without them.  Any enemy could sneak in invisibly, and then those nice, thick walls would be useless.  Any real enemy will bring mages in an attack, and if the city has none of its own, it is probably doomed.

Besides that, the citizens in towns know the laws, more or less, and if there is a law banning certain races from being in town, wouldn't any and every citizen who saw them have the potential to cry for the guards (or worse)?  And wouldn't there be guards patrolling the streets here and there?  Trent isn't the only guard inside Port Hempstead after all.  So, even if a 'monstrous' character could sneak in invisibly, what are they going to do except sit invisibly watching everyone else?  Or, in other words, if they aren't spies, they probably aren't going to get much done.  I imagine that even those 'monstrous' characters allowed in Port Hempstead get a lot of questions asked and need to show papers pretty often and maybe even get denied service some places anyway.  It's just that none of that stuff is modeled in the NWN version of Layonara, so no one ever thinks about it.

[Dorganath]

Agreed, but at least then there's some RPed observance of the fact that guards are out front, rather than just ignoring them for OOC reasons.

[Hellblazer]

I have two comments about this.

 you can't hide in the open.

ooh except for Sd's hehe, but then again if someone has true sight or the spot/listen for it, then even them are spotted.

[Falonthas]

its why noone ever bothers a kitty

[Falonthas]

and in regard to missing how vehl was right after v3 opened

maybe more should begin in vehl

[Acacea]

All monster races are required to begin in Vehl. It was only after the sign was put up that it was apparent that included half races, which were not considered monster races by the rest of the world. If dark elves and orcs are starting in Hempstead, they are starting in the wrong place - they don't have the option.

[Stug3]

What if your character cannot read?
 If they are not told about being refused access they how would they know? Volga is not the brightest bulb on the tree and often visits Hemp, not only does he visit but every time he passes the guards he waves or greets them in some form. There is NO way he could sneak into Hemp; he's way too big and dumb to get away with that. I don't consider it metagaming, on the contrary if he were to know what the sign says then that WOULD be metagaming... If anyone tells him to "stay outta here Giant" then he would simply not come back...no harm no foul. But until then how would he know he is not welcome?
 
 * I'm not trying to start anything or stir the pot, just giving the reason Volga does frequent Hemp...He simply doesn't know any better.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

You are missing two points though.  Regardless of being able to read, as soon as he gets near the gates, the guards ARE going to draw swords and either chase him away or kill him.  He's not alllowed in, AT ALL, and the guards enforce it.  ALL the time

secondly, the Sign is sort of an OOC "Hey, Don't do this" just as much as an IC one.

[Stug3]

Good to know....consider him 'told'

[Acacea]

They aren't going to draw swords because they use blunt weapons, nor kill outside the gates without provocation for the same reason.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Thats hardly the point.  They still arent gonna let a monster into Hempstead, whether they have hammers or swords or Potato Cannons...

[lonnarin]

As to the political environment, many goodly and just people should be boycotting Hempstead.  (Aeridenite and Azattan ones in particular!)  Famous exceptions should be disgusted by the place and make it a point not to protect them or do buisiness there.  Many of us in Vehl would view Hempstead in even worse light than Prantz, by that token.  At least the dictatorship of Prantz lets you register.  

Above all, we shouldn't be arguing with the *team* over the validity of the rule, but be constantly staging Azattan protests outside the gates, writing angry letters on the forums in character and posting them everywhere, chastising the *government* of Hempstead, requesting CDQs to change things.  If you really want to rush the gates, that's fine, but do so when a GM is there to possess the guards and go down fighting and the legend will grow!  So initiate a boycott, stage a martyrdom, lobby the government and guilds to pull out of the city and maybe the officials will respond.   New areas are being closed off, revamped, updated and decimated by player and plot actions every month, so why not lead a civil rights movement?

*could just imagine a speech given by Corash about how all life is equally precious, and former dockworkers declaring "I am still half human!"*

Just a few RP ideas I'm throwing out there on ways to cope with this issue.

PS: Methinks the potato cannon was the product of a Goranite and Prunillite union gone horribly wrong...