Fehriel Approaches the Hlint town council representative.

[SteveMaurer]

If she even gets to this question (see the above response)

Darthirâe would not proceed with any further questions as soon as she senses hostility.   So I'll pretend she didn't get the information given from the last answers.

Second, to the question "Lady, are you going to buy something?", let me state for the record that for the past few years, Darthirâe has been a very good customer of Hlint merchants - especially their craft merchant.   She often spends time in the Silkwoods collecting bug parts, and buys potion supplies (and food, drinks, occasional lodging, arrows, bandages, healing potions) on her way up to Moraken's tower.   (Although she never has talked to him about it, she's still a bit miffed at Moraken for making fools of some of her human male companions with his nymph transformation at the academy opening in Port Hempstead, yet still makes use of the facilities there - but that's another story.)

Probably in the last Layonaran year alone, she has done 700 to 800 True worth of business with the merchants.

Still, from what has been just described, it's hard to miss a stark change in attitude among the Hlint residents.   This was a town that until very recently ([lore]Hlint[/lore]) as a "Boom town", which "lies on unarguably the most secure and therefore most traveled east-west passage on the continent of Mistone" beckoning "would-be adventurers and resource seekers, bringing them in droves from all over the continent."  And that "[d]espite these recent disruptions to daily life in Hlint it continues to draw all manner of creatures and adventures hoping to become the heroes of tomorrow".

The economy, in short, revolves around trade across the continent, along with outfitting individual mercenaries.   The repeated statements that they'd give it all up, and go back to the (mythical) halcyon days of their grandparents, seems a clear change in political direction.

So she concludes, rightly or wrongly, that the resistance to this gift is that the Hlint leaders (and most locals) think that the adventurers that have been with the town for at least the past 10 to 20 years are the cause, and not the solution, to their recent troubles.

Based on that supposition, she would first go to sound out the Illsare Priestess, and put forth that theory, along with the following questions:

1] First of all, is there a legitimate case to be made that adventurers have caused more damage than the obvious protection they give, in keeping the roads safe, the caravans coming through, and the orcs and goblins at bay?

2] Millions of people have died in the last decade.  Like many many many other towns and large cities, Hlint could have easily been wiped from the face of Layonara by various dangers.   But it was not, largely thanks to people like Fehriel, who took Hlint's banner as their own.   So what is the cause for the sudden new hostility?    Did something recent happen?

3] How uniform is this sentiment?    Is no one thankful for the heroes who died defending this town?   Is there not a human townsperson, whose life was saved by one as a child, who commemorates the grave of the adventurer who saved them?   (Emotively, Darthirâe is not at all sounding judgemental or sancimonious in this; her attitude is more one of surprise.  Hlint's reaction is the kind of one she would expect from her own home town.)

4] Does the Hlint crier tell people of how some from this very town, killed Bloodstone, and put to death the scourge of a thousand years?  Again, Darthirâe does not specifically say it, but conveys a sense of surprise that it would not be a source of small-town pride that Hlint is the home town for the people who saved the world, rather than the apparent reverse.

5] Regardless of how it happened, again Darthirâe asks the priestess, how this apparent rift between the caravan merchants (who use the trade route across the continent), the adventurers, and the local residents could be mended.   If it can be.

[Dorganath]

Darthirâe would not proceed with any further questions as soon as she senses hostility.   So I'll pretend she didn't get the information given from the last answers.

Noted.  At least she won't be shunned then.

Second, to the question "Lady, are you going to buy something?", let me state for the record that for the past few years, Darthirâe has been a very good customer of Hlint merchants - especially their craft merchant.   She often spends time in the Silkwoods collecting bug parts, and buys potion supplies (and food, drinks, occasional lodging, arrows, bandages, healing potions) on her way up to Moraken's tower.

That particular merchant meant "right here, right now."  There are other customers, afterall.

Still, from what has been just described, it's hard to miss a stark change in attitude among the Hlint residents.   This was a town that until very recently ([lore]Hlint[/lore]) as a "Boom town", which "lies on unarguably the most secure and therefore most traveled east-west passage on the continent of Mistone" beckoning "would-be adventurers and resource seekers, bringing them in droves from all over the continent."  And that "[d]espite these recent disruptions to daily life in Hlint it continues to draw all manner of creatures and adventures hoping to become the heroes of tomorrow".

OK, so let me clarify something then in a purely OOC manner which you can then translate to IC however you see fit.

First off, unfortunately not all our lore on LORE is 100% current, but realm/kingdom summaries are actually on the way soonish, just as we have updated the deity information recently.  What is written for Hlint was valid in the last campaign but that has all changed starting with the end of the campaign.

Immediately after Bloodstone's death in 1402 (I advise taking a peek at the Layonara Timeline for a sense of time here), the world was plunged into the Dark Ages, essentially a volcanic/nuclear winter that lasted a good 18 years until it was suddenly cleared (plot quest effort...I won't detail it here and no one in Hlint will likely know).  During these 18 years, millions upon millions of people died of starvation from crop failures, from increased predation from animals and other hostile creatures and from bandits seeking to take for themselves. Many towns and villages were wiped off the map, literally and figuratively, due to them literally dying out.  Populations became more isolated.

Hlint's current xenophobia is a product of this time and of the wacky events of the past prior to Bloodstone's fall.  It was, at one time, a "boom town" but the Dark Ages changed that.  The in-game representation of Hlint used to be twice as large with a full craft hall and a stronger merchant presence. The town is smaller now than it was, and the residents are happy about that.

So the "until very recently" assumption is unfortunately incorrect and has been for some time. Again, that is partially our fault, as we have a massive amount of updating to do and an all-volunteer staff who does the best they can with the time they have. We apologize if this has caused you confusion or false assumption.  

The economy, in short, revolves around trade across the continent, along with outfitting individual mercenaries.   The repeated statements that they'd give it all up, and go back to the (mythical) halcyon days of their grandparents, seems a clear change in political direction.

Their "economy" is much more slanted toward self-sufficiency than before, and that is also something they're happy about.  Sure, there are things that need to be brought in from outside, and likewise, they sell their goods to others in the normal conduction of commerce, but only as much as they need, and not just for the sake of growing their economy.  As far as they're concerned, their "economy" grows on the farms surrounding the town.

It is a change in political direction, or perhaps more accurately, a change in the mindsets of residents.  Either way, the effect is the same, but it is not a sudden shift.

So she concludes, rightly or wrongly, that the resistance to this gift is that the Hlint leaders (and most locals) think that the adventurers that have been with the town for at least the past 10 to 20 years are the cause, and not the solution, to their recent troubles.

I'll leave you to her conclusion and will neither refute nor confirm it. That is, afterall, hers to hold.

Based on that supposition, she would first go to sound out the Illsare Priestess, and put forth that theory, along with the following questions:

In general, Darthirâe finds the priestess far more open-minded and less isolationist than most of the other Hlint residents.

1] First of all, is there a legitimate case to be made that adventurers have caused more damage than the obvious protection they give, in keeping the roads safe, the caravans coming through, and the orcs and goblins at bay?

She wonders where you're going with this.  The town has its own guard and generally can defend itself just fine.  She wonders which adventurers actually make a life patrolling the roads and escorting caravans on a regular basis because...well...that's not very "adventurey".  

2] Millions of people have died in the last decade.  Like many many many other towns and large cities, Hlint could have easily been wiped from the face of Layonara by various dangers.   But it was not, largely thanks to people like Fehriel, who took Hlint's banner as their own.   So what is the cause for the sudden new hostility?    Did something recent happen?

Eh, that number may be a bit high.  Layonara's population is nowhere near that of Earth, even though they are roughly the same physical size.

As for Hlint's endangerment, she will tell you that the last major threat that the town faced were the Dark Ages themselves, and that the townsfolk believe that was because of the adventurers.  She does not necessarily agree with this view, or rather, she does not hold them to blame for what happened, even though it's a well-known thing that adventurers did in fact bring about the Dark Ages.

3] How uniform is this sentiment?    Is no one thankful for the heroes who died defending this town?   Is there not a human townsperson, whose life was saved by one as a child, who commemorates the grave of the adventurer who saved them?   (Emotively, Darthirâe is not at all sounding judgemental or sancimonious in this; her attitude is more one of surprise.  Hlint's reaction is the kind of one she would expect from her own home town.)

The answers realistically that she doesn't know many of these so-called heroes who actually died defending Hlint, as those Darthirâe speaks of were bound to the stones.  Those actually considered heroes these days by the town were the guards and resident militia who were not bound and laid down their lives for any threats that surfaced since the Dark Ages began.

She will say though that some so not necessarily blame adventurers for anything, but rather just don't wish their influence in their town to reach the levels it once was.

4] Does the Hlint crier tell people of how some from this very town, killed Bloodstone, and put to death the scourge of a thousand years?  Again, Darthirâe does not specifically say it, but conveys a sense of surprise that it would not be a source of small-town pride that Hlint is the home town for the people who saved the world, rather than the apparent reverse.

She'll correct you and say that Hlint was not, in fact, the home town for those known as the Dragoncalled.  Rather, those Dragoncalled were drawn to this town as part of the calling and that they came from all over Layonara, though a few did make Hlint their home.  So for a while, the town was proud that they were somehow "chosen" to receive these that a dragon deemed worthy to fight against the threat that was Sinthar Bloodstone, but even before the war ended, the adventurers brought wild displays of harmful magics on the main streets where families roamed.  They would bring in large beasts, summoned or tamed, or other intimidating creatures and constructs that would frighten children and cause temporary chaos.

5] Regardless of how it happened, again Darthirâe asks the priestess, how this apparent rift between the caravan merchants (who use the trade route across the continent), the adventurers, and the local residents could be mended.   If it can be.

She says this is up to the hearts and minds of the residents, and she does not believe it will be mended by campaigns of public relations or fancy gifts meant to sway their opinions, as they're generally distrustful of such gestures.  "The attitudes in town were not formed overnight and nor will they be changed in such," she says.

[SteveMaurer]

///Start OOC

OK, so let me clarify something then in a purely OOC manner which you can then translate to IC however you see fit.

First off, unfortunately not all our lore on LORE is 100% current, but realm/kingdom summaries are actually on the way soonish, just as we have updated the deity information recently.  What is written for Hlint was valid in the last campaign but that has all changed starting with the end of the campaign.

Immediately after Bloodstone's death in 1402 (I advise taking a peek at the Layonara Timeline for a sense of time here), the world was plunged into the Dark Ages, essentially a volcanic/nuclear winter that lasted a good 18 years until it was suddenly cleared (plot quest effort...I won't detail it here and no one in Hlint will likely know).  During these 18 years, millions upon millions of people died of starvation from crop failures, from increased predation from animals and other hostile creatures and from bandits seeking to take for themselves. Many towns and villages were wiped off the map, literally and figuratively, due to them literally dying out.  Populations became more isolated.

Hlint's current xenophobia is a product of this time and of the wacky events of the past prior to Bloodstone's fall.  It was, at one time, a "boom town" but the Dark Ages changed that.  The in-game representation of Hlint used to be twice as large with a full craft hall and a stronger merchant presence. The town is smaller now than it was, and the residents are happy about that.

So the "until very recently" assumption is unfortunately incorrect and has been for some time. Again, that is partially our fault, as we have a massive amount of updating to do and an all-volunteer staff who does the best they can with the time they have. We apologize if this has caused you confusion or false assumption.  

Their "economy" is much more slanted toward self-sufficiency than before, and that is also something they're happy about.  Sure, there are things that need to be brought in from outside, and likewise, they sell their goods to others in the normal conduction of commerce, but only as much as they need, and not just for the sake of growing their economy.  As far as they're concerned, their "economy" grows on the farms surrounding the town.

Ah, well that explains a lot.  Working off the lore, it really sounded like you were roleplaying a political establishment that was completely out of touch with the views and opinions of its constituents.   (Not the most uncommon of situations, mind you.)    And because of this, it led Darthirâe to do things differently than she would have otherwise.   There's no use trying to rally the public around reversing an unpopular decision made by unpopular leaders, when neither is actually unpopular.

And while Hlint's situation can now be seen as clearly against Darthirâe, it makes me happier, because the rejections she's been getting don't seem quite as arbitrary.  I'd rather a PC fail in a way that makes sense, than succeed because of artificial GM caprice that makes the world seem unrealistic.


One more OOC question:  I stated that "millions of people died the last decade", and that "Hlint could have easily been wiped from the map, if not for adventurers".  This brought the following response:

Eh, that number may be a bit high. Layonara's population is nowhere near that of Earth, even though they are roughly the same physical size.

Isn't that what you said above though?  "[M]illions upon millions of people died of starvation from crop failures, from increased predation from animals and other hostile creatures and from bandits seeking to take for themselves."

Is there something I'm missing?

More importantly though, it sounds like at least for the residents of Hlint, they are entirely unaware of how much they depend on adventurers for their safety.    And on this, I am again going to have to depend on a gameworld assumption that this is actually true.   So if her little speech below says things that are clearly false (but haven't been stated as such in the lore), assume she didn't make it.

I also assume Darthirâe is speaking to Calise, the human administrator of the Ilsare temple, and presumably the one who has control over the temple's vote in the council.
//// END OOC

"The attitudes in town were not formed overnight and nor will they be changed in such," she says.

"In truth," Darthirâe says, "I am not looking to change the attitudes of the entire town.  The people here support their leaders in part because they trust them to spend time they themselves do not have to learn of the issues, and be wiser than they about decision making.   So if I can persuade the leaders, then that should be good enough."

"And that, necessarily, starts here.  For if I cannot persuade the church of Ilsare, who remain the most enlightened of all the residents of Hlint, I doubt I'll be able to make much headway elsewhere.   And if I do persuade you, I will need your aid in approaching the other council members."

"So let me begin by giving you information I am certain many people do not know.   The reason why patrolling the roads and escorting caravans on a regular basis is not very 'adventurey', is because it is boring.  And it is boring because it is safe.  It is safe, however, not because goblins have ceased their war against the surface races.   That war continues today.    However, due to the stone bound, that war is fought almost entirely inside enemy territory, in the caverns themselves."

"And bloody that war is, indeed.  It is said that Ilsarians appreciate both intellectual argument and drama, so let me dramatize the situation intellectually.   While I do not look like the classic hard-bitten adventurer, my soul too is stone-bound.  In the course of the last three years I have, with my magics, killed in excess of two hundred and fifty red light goblins, including one of their leaders - who, through use of traps and other techniques, I assassinated by myself alone in the caves.   And I know at least twenty other people, including Fehriel, who could claim at least that amount."

"Now multiply that out.   And ask yourself where would Hlint be without the stone bound.   That is at least 20 times 250, or 5000 goblin warriors that are not present to lay ambushes on your roads, burn your fields, or kill your citizens.   I understand that you are proud of your local guards.   But do you honestly think they could withstand such a hoarde if they were left alone long enough to organize and attack?"

"Further, that is not the only danger.   Recently there was a greater portal that opened, out of which poured greater undead.   I got a look at it myself, and I do not exaggerate at all to say that it looked like it offered direct transferrence straight out of the Hells of Corath himself.   Black magic swirled about both it and its guardian.   I do not know who managed to close it, or how, but whoever did kept Hlint viable."

"In short, as I see it, venturers are victims of their own success.   If they did less good of a job at keeping danger far away, then quirks or no, they would be respected more."

"I do not say these things to suggest that you should throw yourself prostrate at the feet of those of us who have risked the bindstone ritual.    I say it as a warning.    Right now, Hlint's crier yells news of threats to the south to deaf ears - for that is nearly half a year of travel away except by portal, and no one here can imagine such troubles could come this far.  Yet if Fort Vehl or Port Hempstead truly falls under threat, it is nearly certain that most of the stone bound will leave to meet it.   And then, little Hlint will finally have what its citizens think they wish for: to be truly alone, without these troublesome and scary people who constantly come to town to wash their clothes clean of goblin and orc blood, and also their own."

"I cannot promise you this will not happen.  But I can say that if it does, you'd better be well stocked with bandages and advanced weapons. It will not take long at all for the goblins to be at your gates."

"Which brings me to the subject of the Gnomish Device.   When the worshippers of Baeron Ca'Duz attacked, they destroyed as much as they could of Hlint's crafting mechanisms.    Do you recognize why this was done?

"The answer is that it was done as a 'sting' - the bite a spider gives prey that it would normally be too big to take itself.   The point is not to kill, but to weaken and withdraw, to allow the poison to take hold.   In this case though, the 'sting' is that of inferior weaponry.  Already, as a result of that attack, both the captains of both Fort Llast and Haven have had to rely on adventurers to help keep their armorys stocked, because absent the means to make or repair their own, they are utterly dependent on outsiders who import them from elsewhere across the presently safe roads."

"And yet again, if those roads cease to be safe, you lose access to that weaponry.   Imagine that hoarde of goblins at your gates with little more than bent swords and rocks to use against them."

"In short, I completely agree with the residents of Hlint who wish to be independent.  But that independence will be aided, not harmed, by including devices that allow manufacture and maintenance of your own means of defense.   That is why it is smart for your council to put your pride aside, and accept this gift, whether or not you like the giver."

"Oh, and I'd suggest you consider building your walls higher too.   Just in case.   And practice your archery.   Not all arrows need be ones of love."

[Dorganath]

///Start OOC


Ah, well that explains a lot.  Working off the lore, it really sounded like you were roleplaying a political establishment that was completely out of touch with the views and opinions of its constituents.   (Not the most uncommon of situations, mind you.)    And because of this, it led Darthirâe to do things differently than she would have otherwise.   There's no use trying to rally the public around reversing an unpopular decision made by unpopular leaders, when neither is actually unpopular.

And while Hlint's situation can now be seen as clearly against Darthirâe, it makes me happier, because the rejections she's been getting don't seem quite as arbitrary.  I'd rather a PC fail in a way that makes sense, than succeed because of artificial GM caprice that makes the world seem unrealistic.

*nods* I've been acting in accordance with current lore (and verified with the writer of same).  We (GMs in general) try not to be arbitrary and difficult here just for the sake of doing so.  It sort of robs the fun for everyone.

One more OOC question:  I stated that "millions of people died the last decade", and that "Hlint could have easily been wiped from the map, if not for adventurers".  This brought the following response:


Isn't that what you said above though?  "[M]illions upon millions of people died of starvation from crop failures, from increased predation from animals and other hostile creatures and from bandits seeking to take for themselves."

Is there something I'm missing?

Yes, or rather a misunderstanding, and I refer you to the Timeline again.

2] Millions of people have died in the last decade.

I spoke of the Dark Ages, you spoke of the last decade.  The Dark ages spanned from 1402 until 1420, and has been over for 30 years now.  Those high numbers of deaths during that time are attributed to that time, and since the ending of that time, everything has rebounded, some things being tougher than ever, of course.

More importantly though, it sounds like at least for the residents of Hlint, they are entirely unaware of how much they depend on adventurers for their safety.    And on this, I am again going to have to depend on a gameworld assumption that this is actually true.   So if her little speech below says things that are clearly false (but haven't been stated as such in the lore), assume she didn't make it.

Well, if that is Darthirâe's opinion, I will not dissuade you.

Hlint is a town with a population of about 1500, with some regular guard and a volunteer militia.  They do not, typically, see attacks from outside anymore. As was stated, the last major threat to life (unless I missed one somewhere) was the Dark Ages.  It sounds like the assumption is that Hlintites are too ignorant and/or stubborn to see what's "best" for them, which in actuality is far from the truth.  They just prefer to see to themselves.

I also assume Darthirâe is speaking to Calise, the human administrator of the Ilsare temple, and presumably the one who has control over the temple's vote in the council.
//// END OOC

Correct.

Now, givien the above clarifications, if you wish to leave the petition/monologue/speech/dissertation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it as it is, let me know and I will respond.  If not, feel free to rewrite.

[SteveMaurer]

It sounds like the assumption is that Hlintites are too ignorant and/or stubborn to see what's "best" for them, which in actuality is far from the truth. They just prefer to see to themselves.

Far from the truth?   How specifically?   In Darthirâe's monologue, she states the following facts:[LIST=1]

• The Hlinitites do not respect adventurers.
• Adventurers kill literally thousands of Hlint's adversaries before they come even close to the road, Hlint's fields, or the city walls.
• If adventurers are ever called south to deal with daylight vampires or the Dragonstealers, their service to Hlint in ridding it of enemies may decline dramatically.
• The goblin population would, in this circumstance, pose a serious threat.
• Hlint (and Fort Llast and Haven) would be better prepared for such an eventuality if a city in the north had the ability to manufacture and maintain weaponry by itself (like Hlint).

Since you say this is "far from the truth", one of these "facts" stated above must be wrong.   As the LORE is in flux (for example, Hlint is still listed as a monarchy), I don't know what is true, and what is not true.  So it is extremely difficult not to get blindsided by things that are not posted.

I am relying on you to tell me exactly where Darthirâe is objectively wrong in with her facts.

I would also like an explanation for how a city which has recently been overrun, and thus presumably understands that security threats are real, comes to the conclusion that it is OK to proverbially (or literally) spit on its defenders, and decline cost-free outside aid that would save the lives of its own citizens.

This type of behavior simply does not square with historical precident, so either there is some other fact you are not telling me, or this is just GM fiat ("they hate you - no reason given").

[Dorganath]

OK, I think we're confusing each other a bit.  And unless I'm mistaken, what you've written below seems to indicate that Darthirâe will speak her monologue to Calise as given. So first to address the response and then the monologue.

Far from the truth?   How specifically?   In Darthirâe's monologue, she states the following facts:[LIST=1]

• The Hlinitites do not respect adventurers.
• Adventurers kill literally thousands of Hlint's adversaries before they come even close to the road, Hlint's fields, or the city walls.
• If adventurers are ever called south to deal with daylight vampires or the Dragonstealers, their service to Hlint in ridding it of enemies may decline dramatically.
• The goblin population would, in this circumstance, pose a serious threat.
• Hlint (and Fort Llast and Haven) would be better prepared for such an eventuality if a city in the north had the ability to manufacture and maintain weaponry by itself (like Hlint).

1. Yes they do, they just don't really want their kind of "trouble" in town any more than it absolutely needs to be, and further, they'd (currently) be perfectly happy if they could just be left alone.

2. Your basic assumption here is that there's some massive army poised to converge on Hlint at any moment, only held at bay by relatively minuscule population of adventurers.  Is this essentially correct? If so, that's really not the case.

3. Let's be honest. Most adventurers are not "protecting Hlint" but "raiding the goblin caves for fun and profit."  Goblins would be much more likely to raid caravans along the road than to lay seige to a fortified town.  It's just easier, and closer at that.  Looking at the map, there are 50-100 miles between Hlint and the Goblin territories.  They may be a presence, but they are not a constant threat.

4. Perhaps, assuming they were in a mind to conquer, but that's not typically the threat they represent.  It's a threat to commerce along the main roads more than anything.

5. Really not sure where you're going with this one. Placement of craft halls in-game are for balance reasons. It can be assumed that all towns of decent size have the ability to produce such goods to some degree, only they are not facilities open and available to PCs.  That's a game build decision and not neccessarily a game world reality.

Since you say this is "far from the truth", one of these "facts" stated above must be wrong.   As the LORE is in flux (for example, Hlint is still listed as a monarchy), I don't know what is true, and what is not true.  So it is extremely difficult not to get blindsided by things that are not posted.

I've been trying to tell you what is true and what is not.  You and/or Darthirâe are free to fill in the gaps as perceptions seem to warrant, but that does not make them right.

I am relying on you to tell me exactly where Darthirâe is objectively wrong in with her facts.

Well, unless I miss my mark, Darthirâe's entire campaign seems to be based on two preconceptions: 1) everyone has a price, and 2) Hlint should welcome all adventurers with open arms despite all the trouble they have caused them over the last several decades (especially prior to and during the Dark Ages).

That's her opinion, but it is not one that is shared by the majority of the town.

She is welcome to stand in the center of town and profess this belief, and she may get a few nodding heads, a lot of indifferent observers (if they even stop at all to listen) and even a few hecklers, some potentially bordering on adversarial.

There is one or two other misconceptions that you and/or Darthirâe may have, but I will cover them below. I'll say though that I'm doing so against my better judgment, as it stands to poison the RP too much, but then, it's almost at its conclusion anyway, by my estimation.

I would also like an explanation for how a city which has recently been overrun, and thus presumably understands that security threats are real, comes to the conclusion that it is OK to proverbially (or literally) spit on its defenders, and decline cost-free outside aid that would save the lives of its own citizens.

Adventurers are not the town's defenders. They are no official body that the town recognizes.  They, in general have not been hired, and all of what you are suggesting seems to be that the town should be beholden to adventurers regardless of all other concerns they may have.  They're not "spitting" on anyone.  They simply want to live a quiet existance, and adventurers, historically, disrupt that quiet to a great degree.

As for "recently overrun", I am not aware of any such instance in recent times, unless there is some quest even that has had such a scenario.  Perhaps you can illuminate me on that point.

In any case, one of the misconceptions is that it is "adventurers" that they distrust.  More accurate is to say "outsiders," meaning non-residents, strangers and so forth.  They don't mind such people passing through peacefully, though they don't necesarily trust them either.  You're keen on historical precedent, and so I say that nearly every major trouble the town has had has been due to the influence of those from outside of their borders.  As a whole, the town has decided that enough is enough, and they just would rather not have the influece from outsiders that they have had in years past.

The second potential misconception is the nature of the "refusal" that apparently started Darthirâe's fact-finding and crusade.  I don't know if this is a result of the RP with Fehriel or not, but he was told,
[INDENT]"We don't need the help or charity of your kind here."
[/INDENT]That is not a "no, we won't bring the device." it's a dismissal due in no small part to Fehriel's "alien" sort of looks.  Jakob Halleran is of the mind that such a gift would bring influence, and that is the last thing that he thinks the town needs: further influence of troublesome (his opinion) outsiders.

This type of behavior simply does not square with historical precident, so either there is some other fact you are not telling me, or this is just GM fiat ("they hate you - no reason given").

Whose historical precedent?

As for why there was such a reaction to Fehriel and a lesser such reaction to Darthirâe for the simple fact that she's "not from around here".  That's it.  That's the whole reason.  They're not turning people away at the gate, but they'd prefer outsiders to their business and move along.

So, to offer you a summary of the facts as I have given them throughout:

• Hlint is currently xenophobic...period.  The happenings in the past are not lost on them, but as a sum-total sort of game, the town as a whole believes that outsiders are more trouble than their worth, and they just want to be left to a quiet, peaceful existance.
  
• Hlint is capable of defending itself against most incidental threats it may face.  No, it could not withstand a raiding army, but that just isn't common. A raiding party though of goblins or orcs or whatever could easily enough be turned back
• The town council, and in fact the vast majority of townspeople would sooner cut off their own arms than to sell out their principles and endanger the town by accepting bribes, "gifts" or what have you, giving non-residents a foothold of influence and political power.  They've managed just fine for the last 30 years and they're happy with that.
• If need be, they can call on the resources of Trelania, the kingdom in which Hlint is located.

If Darthirâe does not wish to accept these core concepts, that's perfectly fine, but it may lead to her frustration and/or confusion.  Smooth words and well thought-out arguments won't sway everyone.  These people are not stupid or ignorant, but they do have a pride in their town and a want to keep it quiet and peaceful. I know you would argue that it's adventurers who can do that, but they do not see it that way, and until someone tells me differently, that is how they will be portrayed.

Calise's response will follow in the next post.

[Dorganath]

"In truth," Darthirâe says, "I am not looking to change the attitudes of the entire town.  The people here support their leaders in part because they trust them to spend time they themselves do not have to learn of the issues, and be wiser than they about decision making.   So if I can persuade the leaders, then that should be good enough."

"And that, necessarily, starts here.  For if I cannot persuade the church of Ilsare, who remain the most enlightened of all the residents of Hlint, I doubt I'll be able to make much headway elsewhere.   And if I do persuade you, I will need your aid in approaching the other council members."

"So let me begin by giving you information I am certain many people do not know.   The reason why patrolling the roads and escorting caravans on a regular basis is not very 'adventurey', is because it is boring.  And it is boring because it is safe.  It is safe, however, not because goblins have ceased their war against the surface races.   That war continues today.    However, due to the stone bound, that war is fought almost entirely inside enemy territory, in the caverns themselves."

"And bloody that war is, indeed.  It is said that Ilsarians appreciate both intellectual argument and drama, so let me dramatize the situation intellectually.   While I do not look like the classic hard-bitten adventurer, my soul too is stone-bound.  In the course of the last three years I have, with my magics, killed in excess of two hundred and fifty red light goblins, including one of their leaders - who, through use of traps and other techniques, I assassinated by myself alone in the caves.   And I know at least twenty other people, including Fehriel, who could claim at least that amount."

"Now multiply that out.   And ask yourself where would Hlint be without the stone bound.   That is at least 20 times 250, or 5000 goblin warriors that are not present to lay ambushes on your roads, burn your fields, or kill your citizens.   I understand that you are proud of your local guards.   But do you honestly think they could withstand such a hoarde if they were left alone long enough to organize and attack?"

"Further, that is not the only danger.   Recently there was a greater portal that opened, out of which poured greater undead.   I got a look at it myself, and I do not exaggerate at all to say that it looked like it offered direct transferrence straight out of the Hells of Corath himself.   Black magic swirled about both it and its guardian.   I do not know who managed to close it, or how, but whoever did kept Hlint viable."

"In short, as I see it, venturers are victims of their own success.   If they did less good of a job at keeping danger far away, then quirks or no, they would be respected more."

"I do not say these things to suggest that you should throw yourself prostrate at the feet of those of us who have risked the bindstone ritual.    I say it as a warning.    Right now, Hlint's crier yells news of threats to the south to deaf ears - for that is nearly half a year of travel away except by portal, and no one here can imagine such troubles could come this far.  Yet if Fort Vehl or Port Hempstead truly falls under threat, it is nearly certain that most of the stone bound will leave to meet it.   And then, little Hlint will finally have what its citizens think they wish for: to be truly alone, without these troublesome and scary people who constantly come to town to wash their clothes clean of goblin and orc blood, and also their own."

"I cannot promise you this will not happen.  But I can say that if it does, you'd better be well stocked with bandages and advanced weapons. It will not take long at all for the goblins to be at your gates."

Calise ends up politely requesting that Darthirâe pause in her talking due to her need to attend to some temple matter or other that is brought to her.  Other than that, she is generally attentive and polite.  She gives nods of acknoledgment to some things, apparent agreement on some things and a furrowed brow to others.  She doesn't speak much except to politely excuse herself and apologize for interrupting.

"Which brings me to the subject of the Gnomish Device.   When the worshippers of Baeron Ca'Duz attacked, they destroyed as much as they could of Hlint's crafting mechanisms.    Do you recognize why this was done?

"The answer is that it was done as a 'sting' - the bite a spider gives prey that it would normally be too big to take itself.   The point is not to kill, but to weaken and withdraw, to allow the poison to take hold.   In this case though, the 'sting' is that of inferior weaponry.  Already, as a result of that attack, both the captains of both Fort Llast and Haven have had to rely on adventurers to help keep their armorys stocked, because absent the means to make or repair their own, they are utterly dependent on outsiders who import them from elsewhere across the presently safe roads."

Before she can respond to the bit about the device, she seems somewhat befuddled by the dark elf reference, though ultimately decides to just hear Darthirâe  out.

"And yet again, if those roads cease to be safe, you lose access to that weaponry.   Imagine that hoarde of goblins at your gates with little more than bent swords and rocks to use against them."

"In short, I completely agree with the residents of Hlint who wish to be independent.  But that independence will be aided, not harmed, by including devices that allow manufacture and maintenance of your own means of defense.   That is why it is smart for your council to put your pride aside, and accept this gift, whether or not you like the giver."

"Oh, and I'd suggest you consider building your walls higher too.   Just in case.   And practice your archery.   Not all arrows need be ones of love."

When Darthirâe appears finished, Calise gives a friendly smile and speaks in a pleasant voice.

"Dear, you really are quite driven on this, though I am not quite sure why. I don't disagree that this town could be a little less resistant to such gestures, but they have their ways and rightly so. I am only one voice of eight, but this is also my home.

"To be honest, I'm a touch confused...so much passion about a piece of equipment," she says with a smile. "I do wish you luck on your campaign though.  Perhaps level heads will see a way to be less resistant to such things.  But if I could offer you a bit of advice dear...

"You come off a bit strong, and your words seem angled to incite fear and doubt.  I know this town. It is my home.  Fear will lead them to drive you out before they will embrace you with open arms.  Telling people how they should be grateful to the adventuring sort will not be very effective. If you want to win trust, you'll need to forget such notions and let them see a peaceful presence, not one that wishes to come in and change things to suit a different ideal.

"I have to admit, I was not sure where you were going with all of this talk but...if you're talking about the public smithy..." she says, giggling a bit. "Well dear, that's not the council's decision. That place is owned by the Xin's, and has been for generations."

[SteveMaurer]

///Start OOC

Your basic assumption here is that there's some massive army poised to converge on Hlint at any moment, only held at bay by relatively minuscule population of adventurers. Is this essentially correct? If so, that's really not the case.

My basic assumption, perhaps incorrectly inferred from the respawn mechanics, is that the Red Light goblins are very prolific in their breeding, and if ever they were left alone, could easily raise such an army within a year.   I also assume that the red light caverns have thousands of crevices in which the goblins can live but cannot be followed, and so this ability to quickly reconstitute themselves will always remain.

And yes, minuscule in numbers or not, my assumption is also that those whose souls are bound to bindstones, who thus have a significantly reduced fear of death, are the ones who have an enormous impact on the population of goblin warriors.  I'm just getting this from the in-game number of combat victories of PCs.

Perhaps, assuming they were in a mind to conquer, but that's not typically the threat they represent. It's a threat to commerce along the main roads more than anything.

OK, this is good.  I am now getting a clearer understanding of the real situation.

You are saying that Hlint's perception that they are safe from the Red Goblins is not a misperception: they really aren't threatened.    If, say, just half of the goblins that adventurers have killed in the last Layonaran year (perhaps around 1000) were still alive, they would confine themselves to ambushing caravans closest to their territories.   They would not burn fields, murder farmers in outlying areas, or lay siege to human settlements.   50-100 miles is two to five days of travel, and that is just too far for goblins to walk; they like their caverns.

So the community of Hlint, which has turned inward and sees no need to protect its trade routes, can laugh the threat off. They've never seen a cause and effect relationship between the number of adventurers in the area (or lack thereof) and the number of reported goblin attacks.

Really not sure where you're going with this one. Placement of craft halls in-game are for balance reasons. It can be assumed that all towns of decent size have the ability to produce such goods to some degree, only they are not facilities open and available to PCs. That's a game build decision and not necessarily a game world reality.

And that is definitely something I didn't know.   From the description of Hlint, a town of 1500, I expected that if weapons maintenance facilities were not depicted in game, then they simply did not exist - and weapons were only available from traders who brought them in along the roads.

So there is already a Gnomish device in town?   If so, this really does tear down a number of Darthirâe's arguments.

Well, unless I miss my mark, Darthirâe's entire campaign seems to be based on two preconceptions: 1) everyone has a price, and 2) Hlint should welcome all adventurers with open arms despite all the trouble they have caused them over the last several decades (especially prior to and during the Dark Ages).

The first preconception was based on the idea that Hlint was a boom town, and people were primarily motivated by economics - as happens in most boom towns.   The second preconception was based on the idea that the Red Light goblins are actually a threat - that children are told not to play too far beyond the walls, that every one in town knows of at least someone (maybe a traveller) who died to goblin raiders - and while those deaths may be statistically insignificant, such as the palestinian attacks against israel, they are taken seriously and invite disproportionate response.

It sounds as if both of these preconceptions are factually false in the game world.   The orcs and goblins that seem so close and threatening, are really not.   Hlint gets no real protection from adventurers, only problems.   And they're looking for hidden motivations from any act of charity, no matter how seemingly benign.

I know you would argue that it's adventurers who can do that, but they do not see it that way, and until someone tells me differently, that is how they will be portrayed.

That's fine.   There are plenty of times in history when an accurate warning was made to a community or nation that was ignored due to pride or stubbornness.   And when it comes in terms of going to, or not going to, war (for example, various Democrats warning against Bush's war of choice in Iraq, or Churchill warning to take Hitler seriously in Germany), that can be a costly mistake indeed.

I just want to separate out whether Darthirâe is making an accurate warning which is being ignored by the townspeople in game, or whether I am myself, not understanding the world correctly.  I've repeatedly gotten mixed signals about this, which is one of the reasons why I've been pushing so hard at it.

Again, I have fun whether or not my PC succeeds; but I don't have fun when I have to back out a whole bunch of RP because what seemed like perfectly reasonable assumptions - things that my PC would know but I didn't - were incorrect.   That's why I keep asking for clarification.  I'm not doing it to bug you.
///End OOC

- - -

Somewhat dejected, Darthirâe will make her way to the Tobur Xin Smithy, and just sit around for a while.   Among other things, she is trying to figure out whether it even makes sense to site a Gnomish Device here.   Is there room?   Does such a thing make undue noise?   She will also look at the people coming in.   How many of them are local vs outsiders?

If someone she knows, like Vrebel, comes in, she will greet them.  But other than that, she will be quietly pensive, reflecting on the utter alieness of the surface races, and how little she still understands them.

[Dorganath]

As Darthirâe lingers around the smithy, she sees a slightly grumbly blacksmith, along with a couple others, unpacking something from crate.  From what can be seen (and as close as they'll allow her to get, citing a need for space to work), it's difficult to tell what it may be.

http://forums.layonara.com/wild-surge-inn/232972-heard-around-wild-surge.html

// Had to call this to a close for obvious reasons.  I will debrief the rest later when I have time.
 

[Dorganath]

Now, for this response and a debrief to follow.

///Start OOC


My basic assumption, perhaps incorrectly inferred from the respawn mechanics, is that the Red Light goblins are very prolific in their breeding, and if ever they were left alone, could easily raise such an army within a year.   I also assume that the red light caverns have thousands of crevices in which the goblins can live but cannot be followed, and so this ability to quickly reconstitute themselves will always remain.

And yes, minuscule in numbers or not, my assumption is also that those whose souls are bound to bindstones, who thus have a significantly reduced fear of death, are the ones who have an enormous impact on the population of goblin warriors.  I'm just getting this from the in-game number of combat victories of PCs.

*nods* There may be validity to this, and there may not.  It is, in some part, a necessity of an online world to have effectively limitless enemies. Translating that into an IC sense, it's entirely possible that adventurers and hunters keep the goblin population in check.  It's also possible that if their population got too large, they'd have food shortages, extra disease, etc., which would likewise limit the population.  Who knows?  

In Hlint's history, goblin raids on the town itself have been rare, suggesting it would take extreme circumstances to get them to venture out from their caves to take a chance at laying seige to a town.

OK, this is good.  I am now getting a clearer understanding of the real situation.

You are saying that Hlint's perception that they are safe from the Red Goblins is not a misperception: they really aren't threatened.    If, say, just half of the goblins that adventurers have killed in the last Layonaran year (perhaps around 1000) were still alive, they would confine themselves to ambushing caravans closest to their territories.   They would not burn fields, murder farmers in outlying areas, or lay siege to human settlements.   50-100 miles is two to five days of travel, and that is just too far for goblins to walk; they like their caverns.

So the community of Hlint, which has turned inward and sees no need to protect its trade routes, can laugh the threat off. They've never seen a cause and effect relationship between the number of adventurers in the area (or lack thereof) and the number of reported goblin attacks.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the last paragraph.  They see that keeping to themselves for the most part and keeping out the (by their perception) disruptive influences of outsiders.  Sure they see value in trade routes being kept open, but that's outside of town, not inside.

And that is definitely something I didn't know.   From the description of Hlint, a town of 1500, I expected that if weapons maintenance facilities were not depicted in game, then they simply did not exist - and weapons were only available from traders who brought them in along the roads.

So there is already a Gnomish device in town?   If so, this really does tear down a number of Darthirâe's arguments.

Well yes, there's a perception difficulty when one can cross the continent in 15 minutes and an entire town of 1500 people can be depicted in an 80x80 meter grid (if I remember correctly).

The town has multiple smithys, but only one of them is depicted in-game.  Likewise, there are more than one blacksmith, and one of those is on the town council (and neither is physically represented in-game).  The list goes on, but there is of course the necessity to represent what is of mechanical and thematic importance and sacrifice those (typically) small details that are important to backstory but simply will not fit.

As for a Tinker's Device, no, there was not a mechanical or RP Tinker's Device in town before this last update.  It's of course important to note that the Tinker's Device would not significantly improve the town's ability to defend itself, as smithing facilities already existed.  The device would aid in the crafting of arrowheads and sling bullets (Well, other stuff, but as far as those things primarily critical to town defense, that would be the prime uses).

The first preconception was based on the idea that Hlint was a boom town, and people were primarily motivated by economics - as happens in most boom towns.   The second preconception was based on the idea that the Red Light goblins are actually a threat - that children are told not to play too far beyond the walls, that every one in town knows of at least someone (maybe a traveller) who died to goblin raiders - and while those deaths may be statistically insignificant, such as the palestinian attacks against israel, they are taken seriously and invite disproportionate response.

Yeah, it was, and I can understand how you would also have that perception, as that's what's available.  Unfortunately, because our world is so large, it has a lot of lore and a lot of changes have happened over the last 100 or so game years, which unfortunately have not yet been fully pushed out to the general public.

It sounds as if both of these preconceptions are factually false in the game world.   The orcs and goblins that seem so close and threatening, are really not.   Hlint gets no real protection from adventurers, only problems.   And they're looking for hidden motivations from any act of charity, no matter how seemingly benign.

Oh, Hlint does get some degree of protection from the efforts of adventurers, but it's a secondary effect in most cases. And it's not so much that they're actively looking for hidden motives but rather that they're generally suspicious of outsiders.  It's a subtle but important difference.

That's fine.   There are plenty of times in history when an accurate warning was made to a community or nation that was ignored due to pride or stubbornness.   And when it comes in terms of going to, or not going to, war (for example, various Democrats warning against Bush's war of choice in Iraq, or Churchill warning to take Hitler seriously in Germany), that can be a costly mistake indeed.

Without even coming anywhere near the political implications in such a statement (and I will actively edit any discussion that turns to RL politics), I'm not sure if you're still trying to convince me or not, but it's really not important here.  There's generally a hubris of belief on both sides of any issue.  Hlintites are convinced their current mindset is correct, just as Darthirâe is convinced she is right.  Who is really right? Well, that's for history to decide.

I just want to separate out whether Darthirâe is making an accurate warning which is being ignored by the townspeople in game, or whether I am myself, not understanding the world correctly.  I've repeatedly gotten mixed signals about this, which is one of the reasons why I've been pushing so hard at it.

What I think is at work here, in part, is that you and/or Darthirâe find the mindset of Hlint rather "alien" and atypical.  They are also not as head-in-the-sand as you/she may think. I'm including you both as I don't know whose perceptionsare at work here.

Darthirâe's "warning" may well be accurate.  It may predict some future that may yet come to pass, at which point, it will be a perfect "I told you so" moment.  On the other hand, it may not, and by preparing for those relatively minor threats that they may see from time to time, the residents and rulers of Hlint may well find themselves adequately protected against any credible and likely threats.

Remember that while they have surely heard of the Cult's activities, it's still something that's thousands of miles away, and something which may never find its way to them.

The last point I'll state on this is that in the past, adventurers have, in fact, helped repell attacks by dark elves on Hlint.  At the same time, adventurers failed to protect Prantz from falling to Lord Rael's forces.  So they, as a group, are not perfect, nor are they some infallible protective force.  Hlint simply prefers, for the moment, to take their chances with the resources they have.

Again, I have fun whether or not my PC succeeds; but I don't have fun when I have to back out a whole bunch of RP because what seemed like perfectly reasonable assumptions - things that my PC would know but I didn't - were incorrect.   That's why I keep asking for clarification.  I'm not doing it to bug you.
///End OOC

Yep, I understand, and the one comment I would make here is that you seem to see lots of possibilities and are able to take a situation and extrapolate it.  These are good things of course, but what has happened is that you go too far ahead of yourself but asking extra questions based on the assumption on what the answers will be.  So yes, that results in a lot of going back and having to re-react to situations.  So my generalized suggestion is to approach such investigations at a more gradual pace. It may end up in less time spent for the same results.

In any case, I hope overall it was illuminating into this little corner of the world.

[Dorganath]

// OOC

To everyone involved with this, thank you for your contributions and RP.

And as for what happened here:

An adventurer with low Charisma and red eyes came to the xenophobic Hlint and made a reasonable request.  The request was not denied outright, but rather he was told that the town didn't need help from those like him.

In short, there could have been a better ambassador.

Now, how Fehriel has handled it in his RP, and how others have followed up, has been great and hopefully accurate to their characters and how they would handle the situation.

It has been interesting and hopefully illuminating to everyone participating and just observing.  

In the end though, adding a Tinker's Device to the Xin Smithy was not a decision for the town to make but rather the current proprietor of the smithy itself.

So, for those curious about why I added this device in the last update...

When Fehriel made the request in an IC manner, I handled it in an IC manner.  Had Hellblazer made this same request in the "Suggestions" forum, I would have thought, "Hmm, good point. OK in for the next update."

And that's effectively what I did, as I had it added to the module sometime between Fehriel's leaving town and Darthirâe beginning her investigations.  Of course, revealing this OOCly would have brought an abrupt end to the RP, and so I let it continue.

It was a fine effort by all involved, and so again, thank you.

[Hellblazer]

//thanks for the update dorg, not sure how long it will take for feh to actually take the time to change his mind about that town, if he ever does. But then again, only fools don't change their mind when there is a contradictory evidence to a belief.

[Xaltotun]

There is a polite knock on the door and a medium sized man enters the room at the request of the occupant. He removes his head gear showing a receding hairline on an all too human head and re-introduces himself as Xaltotun, not expecting the man to remember him.

He tells Jakob Halleran that he has come into some unexpected money from a new business venture, and asks if the town council has no objections, could he approach the owner of the smithy to talk about building a tinkering section to the smithy. He further intimates he would be more than happy to help fund such a venture, for say, a percentage of the revenue, or a bench with his name on it. He adds, 'Assuming the costs are within reason, of course.'

He politely awaits Jakob's response before bowing slightly and taking his leave.

[SteveMaurer]

As Darthirâe lingers around the smithy, she sees a slightly grumbly blacksmith, along with a couple others, unpacking something from crate.  From what can be seen (and as close as they'll allow her to get, citing a need for space to work), it's difficult to tell what it may be.

With typical extended elvish patience, Darthirâe watches in silence as the workmen uncrate the equipment and begin the complicated assembly.

She would not interrupt, but if ever any of the workmen doing the construction asked her what she was doing, she would simply say "Trying to figure out what it is that you're putting in, and what it does."   She is adept at many things, but detailed mechanical knowledge is not one of them.

To any explanation, she would listen to avidly.

[Fidzy]

*Phobo went to the crafting house and found the new tinker's device*  
 
 Oh, that's nice.
 
 I shall thanks Hlint people for this.