Jobs

[Hellblazer]

I know it's not always welcomed to have suggestion of things seen on other servers but this is one that I think would really give a plus to the server. I have to say that, that servers has almost a constant full two servers that are set both at 75 players each. So maybe there is something there we can actually look at?

Jobs that you can train and that actually gives you a title in game. When you look at the player chart, you actually see for example human (fisherman) those jobs, and you can train in more than one, gives you certain small bonuses that are applies to certain skills as you reach certain levels in the job itself.

Also that could give a greater rp value to the crafting that is being done. We could even push it that as you gain more and more levels in it, maybe you could have random order from npcs that would hand out rewards for those.

Anyhow just suggesting something here.

[Script Wrecked]

Apart from being titled, these "jobs" sound like crafting. The titling component sounds like gaining RP recognition for your crafting levels. I think there is at least informal recognition of some characters' abilities within the crafting realm, specifically at the high end of crafting ability.

For those that don't know, there are ranking lists of the active crafters and all-time crafters (both accessible under "Layonara Links" in the second menu line above).

Level 22 in most crafts would probably entitle you to be called "Master Crafter".

[Hellblazer]

They are not just crafting. Some of them are actually more real jobs type, like soldiers, guards bounty hunters etc. Other are more like crafters, bakers, fishing, armor crafting.

Beside when you speak of crafting levels, I noticed a little .. hmm flaw? in the current system. If your stats are hight, then you starts with a much higher percentage, that would usually be associated with a certain level. So if you start at level 1, but still have 50% or so, then you wont be able to reach the maximum levels before you actually hit the trivial on all items. I don't know if this is actually the case, but it seems like it.

[Gulnyr]

Depends how you look at it whether it's a flaw or not, I guess.

It works like you're saying, though.  If there are two characters working in the same craft and the first has higher relevant stats than the second, then the first will have a better success rate on average and top out sooner and the second will fail more attempts on average but be able to achieve a higher crafting level.

An example:  Jennara has been unable to gain any experience in Cooking for a long, long time because she has high Wisdom and Constitution stats.  So, she'll never get any higher than level 21 in Cooking.  Tegan is a level 22 Cook with about 20000xp more than Jennara.  Is Jennara better because she has a natural aptitude and became and expert relatively quickly, or is Tegan better because she worked harder to develop the skill and has more xp to show for it?  How do you define "better," anyway?  Is Jennara cheated by not getting the extra xp or the opportunity to remain at the top of the crafting chart, or is Tegan cheated by having to work harder for the same end?  Both?  Neither?

As for jobs, I don't know about titles, at least automatic titles.  The first reason is that a system for that is going to be a huge undertaking to get right, probably, and I'm not sure it's worth it.  The second reason is the "get right" part.  If you ask someone what they do for a living, they are probably going to tell you one thing.  Maybe someone may offer that they work two jobs, but, in general, there will be a single answer.  That's because people's jobs are huge time sinks and major pillars of their lives.  If some guy should claim to be a fisherman and a physicist and a lumberjack and an assassin and the CEO of some corporation, he is full of a substance the forum will not let me name.

Similarly, our characters should not be able to be guards and fishermen and bakers and adventurers and five other things all at once.  Guard is a full-time position; militiaman is a reasonable replacement that isn't a full-time job.  People who cast a line between beers on the weekend are not fishermen; you have to spend a huge chunk of time on a ship casting nets and such to honestly claim to be a fisherman (and that seems like a boring way to spend time in-game, really - better to claim that during offline time and just RP it).  Etc, etc.

Our characters are usually adventurers.  They make their living by going out and meddling.  It's like Scooby Doo with more sword and less dog.  And no Mystery Machine.  This metaphor is falling down around me.  Anyway, some adventurers gain another (often related) job title, either officially or through reputation.  Militiaman, Wolfswood Ranger, Priestess of Lucinda, assassin, whatever.  That's the job (singular) of a character.

There used to be a system where NPCs in craft halls would offer contracts for so many of some crafted item, which would earn a little money.  There was apparently some exploit of it so it was yanked out.  I wouldn't mind seeing it again, but I don't know what the exploit was so I don't know what kind of solution to offer for the problem.  And it could offer something besides just money, maybe, though I have no idea what that would be or how it would work.

[Hellblazer]

There used to be a system where NPCs in craft halls would offer contracts for so many of some crafted item, which would earn a little money.  There was apparently some exploit of it so it was yanked out.  I wouldn't mind seeing it again, but I don't know what the exploit was so I don't know what kind of solution to offer for the problem.  And it could offer something besides just money, maybe, though I have no idea what that would be or how it would work.

Well you see that's what I'm talking about.

By the number of jobs you would do for a npc, whether it be by crafting, or doing a small guard duty. You could get rewarded with some skill points and some gold (minor of both of course) Example. A guard could be contracted by Captain Trent to do his run through the 5 maps of Hempstead a couple of time in an alloted time. Then when that time is done, and he has proofed he did the runs *thinking of putting some kind of marker the person has to touch in an order each run* he gets some trues and a point into let say spot and discipline. That could only be taken once every so many Rl days for say.

That's just an example. But the more someone would stick to it, the more the reward in the long run (always the same reward mind you, just cumulative, maxed out at maybe I don't know 10 points total then it's just gold) and his title toward that town and other town would go up. Npc's discounts or something like that maybe.

Of course, a char shouldn't be able to take more than one major job (ie guard) and one minor job (no ie for that one). The major handing a better reward than the minor. I think that two job would be the max per character.

An other example, would be to do an order of 5000 arrows for the wolfswood rangers. The first order some hickory type of arrows, with some type of arrow heads, and feathers. The second, Oak.. other heads, Third Mahog.. etc. It gives more challenge each time, and would also have the PC work the woodcraft, to reach each goals.

[Gulnyr]

Did you know character information is available to DMs?  I don't mean just LORE pages and private CDTs, but threads about individual characters with useful notes and facts and reminders.  I've never seen them so I don't know how complete they may be from a player's point of view or how easy they are to navigate, but I suspect that any particularly important aspect of a character would be written in there somewhere.  A DM, then, can choose to give bonuses to skills (or anything else) based on that information if it seems appropriate.

If a character is really RP'd and defined as a professional fisherman and not just some weekend line caster, and the party is setting some sort of net trap to catch who knows what, then maybe the DM will offer a bonus to the trap if the fisherman character's player offers up some good RP about the block and tackle and all that.  So part of what you seem to be asking for already exists.  It's just not necessarily obvious to the players.  I'm sure I've probably gotten bonuses (and penalties) to various things Jennara has tried just because of who she is and the reputation she has, but I can't give a single specific example.

Giving out actual skill points and similar mechanical goodies seems really overboard.

I'm curious what you feel the main goal of the concept is, by the way.  Is it titles or skill bonuses or having a job of some sort beyond "adventurer" or "mercenary?"  Something else?  I'm curious because your first post seemed to somehow involve attracting and/or retaining players, but the system in your last post would be "used up" and tossed aside by most characters in a hurry, leaving only the possible titles and bonuses.  Titles and bonuses are not special when everyone has them just for running a few errands a long time ago, so I'm not sure there's any attracting and retaining happening there, y'know?

[EdTheKet]

Did you know character information is available to DMs?  I don't mean just LORE pages and private CDTs, but threads about individual characters with useful notes and facts and reminders.  I've never seen them so I don't know how complete they may be from a player's point of view or how easy they are to navigate, but I suspect that any particularly important aspect of a character would be written in there somewhere.  A DM, then, can choose to give bonuses to skills (or anything else) based on that information if it seems appropriate.

Correct!

And we can also see all stats of a character on LORE, so if you want to do something on a quest relating to a craft that your character is highly proficient in, we will/can use that crafting level information to adjust the rolls.

[Hellblazer]

I really don't think that it's being overboard, you already have items that gives skills points, why not add some rp/actions to receiving them beside the leveling up or items?

Well since you ask. I'm thinking of ways to not only give something new to the actual player base, but also to get other players to come here. When the mmo comes out they will need a strong player base to carry the mmo on. I don't know what kind of marketing plans they have, but I doubt they have hundred of thousands of dollars to allot to publicity for it. So what ever player base carry on from NWN, is going to be what they have to start with. Hoping that more comes on when it is more known. We have about 50 players here, not counting multiple accounts and chars, but really players, who plays on a regular basis. So anything we can bring up for this incarnation that can bring newer players, will only ensure a bigger player base when the mmo is out. If we look around a bit, and see those servers that literally have hundreds of actual players (I doubt they only have a handful that plays 24/7 without sleep that their servers are always almost at full capacity), there is surely something we can learn and adapt to our own needs to bring in some new blood.

That's the idea behind it, beside giving a more physical mean to what players may be rping, and some more things to do in game, beside crafting, hunting, rpind and quests. A few servers I know about already offers these. If we want to attract more players for the future, then we have to offer more for them. This could be one of many things.

And yes of course it's to have some thing more than adventurers mercs of all kind, without having to have Gms present constantly to make the world evolve.  They already have a lot on their plate, this could give them a bit more to play with on their own quests actually.

[Gulnyr]

Equipment slot skill points are different than passive, always-on skill points.  Skill points from equipment are a trade-off since that equipment slot can't be filled with something else at the same time.  Skill points should not be cheap or cheapened.

Free skill points that don't require equipment slots and are gained for essentially running a few errands are an excessive reward.

[Hellblazer]

Who said free? It's only free if it's readily and easy to do in a quick fashion. I doubt someone who will craft to raises his crafting skills enough to do a particular job and then craft again to raise his skills further to be able to do the next one, will say they have gained free skill points. Still an example of what could be.

Beside, if you limit the numbers of titles (jobs) one character can gain, you also limit how many points they can gain. And by that, you have different people with different skills that a GM can use on his quest, and other players can also utilize, npc quests can be made to utilize one type for one quest and an other for an other, instead of a few people with 10 high ranks in crafting, saying I am the best, which, who knows, may have other characters feel less utilized? Not saying it's the case, but let see this from an other angle. From your own statement earlier on you were worrying of one character holding more than one title, but yet, then again, if the GM uses the people with the higher skills, what happens when it's the same characters who have the higher skills in multiple crafts? What I'm proposing, not only gives something more to do, and to look for when you are taking on crafting, or rping doing something in game. But also gives reward and maybe an easier time for a Gm to decide who to use on his quest, by the renown that person not only got toward pc, but from npc's also already being titled for such jobs.

personally I actually feel that the majority of usable equipment by all classes cheapens the skills points, as then you have everyone that can be almost equal in everything. But that's my opinion. Points that are gained doing something in game, are surely not cheapened, it's just an other way to gain a very limited amount of points and a title, that could help better define a character.

[Gulnyr]

I'm going by your example:

A guard could be contracted by Captain Trent to do his run through the 5 maps of Hempstead a couple of time in an alloted time. Then when that time is done, and he has proofed he did the runs *thinking of putting some kind of marker the person has to touch in an order each run* he gets some trues and a point into let say spot and discipline.

That is easy to do in a quick fashion and therefore, by your own definition, free.  

Think along with me for a minute, please.  Maybe I can clear up my points, and maybe you can understand where I may be missing yours.  This is the idea as I understand it:

• There would be a system whereby characters get jobs, become professionals, embark on careers, or otherwise enter into employment for some gain.  
• These are not necessarily only jobs such as the crafting tasks we can already do, but also other jobs like soldier, guard, and bounty hunter.  
• These jobs would involve an automated mechanical system or systems, such as the old crafting reward system or the exploration flag system, and would pay out rewards such as True, experience points, skill points, and mechanically relevant titles.  The rewards would be capped to prevent overdoing it.
• The system would limit the number of jobs a given character could pursue, thus limiting the potential gain of high-value rewards such as skill points, and preventing a given character from holding a silly number of titles or gaining all possible rewards.
• The primary goals of the system are to give players "something new" to do with their characters and to attract new players to the server.

Is that a good summary?

[Hellblazer]

Spot on.

The only thing missing in there is the time in between each task set to anteing the higher ranks of the jobs. Preventing someone to do all the jobs in a matter of days.

[Gulnyr]

Cool.

• How many jobs will there be?  Will there be one for each currently available craft category here?  What others will be available?
  
  • If, for the sake of example, we limit the number of jobs in the new system to the current crafts, there would be fifteen jobs available.
  • Ideally, there would be more than one task for each job.  For ease of implementation, let's say there is only one task per job.  This task must be repeated repeatedly to advance in the job.  Each repetition may involve some randomization so it doesn't seem quite so boring ("Bring me [number][material][items]." - "Bring me ten iron daggers.").  It is essentially the old crafting system thing.
  • This is not particularly new and exciting.  It basically just gives everyone one more reason to craft, which they are already doing.  Still, I kinda liked having the old system. I'm just saying it doesn't fulfill the goals of the suggestion (it's not really anything new and won't attract a lot of players).
• How long does a player have to wait between tasks in the job?  One day?  Two weeks?  One month?
• The shorter the interval, the lesser the reward should be per interval, yet the better the job will fulfill the goal to present players with something else to do.  Even so, with a limit on the number of rewards, players will soon find the system of no further use, making the new system (that someone worked so hard to make) simply a flash in the pan.
• A longer interval would help the system's goodies last longer for each character, but isn't likely to retain the attention of players who are not already interested in what the world has to offer.  In other words, if people are not already interested in Layonara, giving them something to do once a week (or less frequently) is not going to make them any more interested, especially if it is already similar to something they can do without limit (standard crafting).
• Who is going to do all this work?
• It's possible the old system could be converted, but there was something exploitable about it, so that would need to be fixed (if that's possible at all) while rejiggering it to work with the new whatever.  Else, it gets built from scratch.
• Beyond the basic system, there would need to be auxiliary systems built to make the system actually automatic in its effects, else gaining that title would have no in-character effect beyond what the other players and DMs do now.  Did I misunderstand that as one of the benefits of the proposal?
• How much balancing will this take?  The last thing we want is for a lot of work to go into a system that has to be pulled because it throws everything else off.
• Would there be a new page to track this new information?  Wouldn't that be yet one more thing for the DMs with "a lot on their plates" to deal with, since making the effort of characters matter would be part of the point?
• Are characters who follow a job path automatically more suited to fill certain roles on quests?  If, for example, Jennara doesn't pursue the Guard job path, would she then be seen as a poor choice to stand guard on a quest?  That's nonsense.  The job level of the character is just another variable in the list of characteristics that need to be tracked.  Also, DMs don't automatically "use the people with higher skills" on their quests.  If you want your character to try something, do it.  If you decided you've done enough and someone else should have a turn, awesome.  The characters with the best crafting skills don't have to do anything.  You play the character, so you make the call.
• What exactly is the huge draw of this system, in your opinion?  
• The current proposal is skeletal and maybe not a great basis for opinion, but I can't see a lot of pop and wow that would make me jump servers for it.  Should it be seen as a "one step at a time" thing?
• If it's a "one step at a time" thing, doesn't that mean there's even more work to be done?  How likely is that?

Overall, I'm not against the concept.  I'd like to see the old crafting thing back if whatever was wrong could be fixed without too much hassle, but I'm not going to cry if it doesn't come back.  I just think you are reaching pretty far for the amount of effort we've heard is being put toward NWN Layonara, and that your suggested rewards are too much for the indicated effort.  That opinion may change with some fleshing out of the idea (like if I'm shown what and when and how in a solid, specific statement).  Of course, my approval is irrelevant in the end; I don't have to do the work.

[Hellblazer]

For the jobs, there could be many, beside the regular crafting. Guard, soldiers, mercs, scout, hunter, lumberjack, miner, spy, bounty hunter, medic, mistrel, escort. I'm sure there could be more.

I'd say cap it at 10 points max, with 10 task to do. Each task being harder. I do agree that there could be multiple version of each rank made so that it's never is the same.

An example for the guard I was speaking of, is once you reach a certain level, then maybe you have to investigate a murder, or even foil a robbery or something like that.

Depending on which jobs it is. It could be either crafting levels that would determine it, or a set RL days time, a week in between maybe. With a message (lore bird) that warns the character that is trying to gain a title, that he has a new task to perform and to meet x person at x location.

As to who would be coding this, no clue. That would be up tot eh team to assign someone in their ranks to do it. I bet it wouldn't be just one person. But yes I hope, that part of the already existing things that has been used in the past or are being used now, could be converted for this, but I'm no coder.

To answer your question about quests. I'll give you an example. You have 2 rogues, 2 rangers, 2 fighter that are attending the same quest, only two has gained ranks and title into the trackers job, 1 of the rogue is the one with the highest rank, there for the most renown for this type of job. You as an employer, would you put in charge someone that has the least experience into a certain job, or take the one that has the most credential for that particular job? Think business wise here, and you will get the answer the NPC (GM) that is hiring would give you.

The biggest draw is the complexity of it I think as there is many things that has to be thought of, dialogs and such. But on the other hand, if we bring something that is better, more unique, mixed in with other goodies for actual players and new players. IF by that we can help the server grow, and offer a bigger base for the future. I think it is totally worth it.

[Gulnyr]

For the jobs, there could be many, beside the regular crafting. Guard, soldiers, mercs, scout, hunter, lumberjack, miner, spy, bounty hunter, medic, mistrel, escort. I'm sure there could be more.

I'd say cap it at 10 points max, with 10 task to do. Each task being harder. I do agree that there could be multiple version of each rank made so that it's never is the same.

So if we go with those and the current crafts, that's twenty-seven jobs.  And if each has ten different, fleshed-out tasks, that's two hundred seventy things someone has to come up with, write out, balance, make into in-game conversations, bug test, and whatever else is needed to make it work (like the automated quest generated for the investigation of the murder for the guard).  That's a lot.  

One task, randomized and repeated, is much easier to make.  It would be a shame in the MMO, but it would be pretty nice in NWN given the current distribution of labor.

I'm maintaining my opinion on the skill points being overboard.  One point for one task is crazy.

Depending on which jobs it is. It could be either crafting levels that would determine it, or a set RL days time, a week in between maybe. With a message (lore bird) that warns the character that is trying to gain a title, that he has a new task to perform and to meet x person at x location.

If it were not a set time, high-level crafters could rush through.  Maybe they should be able to rush through to get the proper level of recognition, though, which they [post=1492742]probably already have now[/post], anyway.

And, if it were implemented, it would be a million times easier if the player just checked with an NPC rather than have yet another system to send them reminders.

As to who would be coding this, no clue. That would be up tot eh team to assign someone in their ranks to do it. I bet it wouldn't be just one person. But yes I hope, that part of the already existing things that has been used in the past or are being used now, could be converted for this, but I'm no coder.

Nothing I remember from the old system would fit your fleshed-out suggestion without a pretty hefty overhaul, I think.  It wasn't that complicated.  I'm pretty sure it would all have to be built from the ground up, and that seems more than unlikely.

To answer your question about quests. I'll give you an example. You have 2 rogues, 2 rangers, 2 fighter that are attending the same quest, only two has gained ranks and title into the trackers job, 1 of the rogue is the one with the highest rank, there for the most renown for this type of job. You as an employer, would you put in charge someone that has the least experience into a certain job, or take the one that has the most credential for that particular job? Think business wise here, and you will get the answer the NPC (GM) that is hiring would give you.

If it worked that way and if I were an NPC (or the DM behind him), I probably wouldn't let half the adventurers who show up anywhere near me and my plans regardless of their experience level.  Have you seen those weirdos?  As it is, DMs aren't very often the ones turning characters away from events for IC reasons, and almost never (in my experience) while possessing an NPC, so the question seems irrelevant.

Besides that, you didn't answer the question I asked.  I'll rephrase.  If Caerwyn (currently a tracker) doesn't pursue the Tracker job path but Jennara (currently not a tracker) does, should a DM disregard Caerwyn's experience in favor of Jennara's under the new system?  If not, isn't that just another source of information for DMs to have to deal with; if so, are you nuts?

The biggest draw is the complexity of it I think as there is many things that has to be thought of, dialogs and such. But on the other hand, if we bring something that is better, more unique, mixed in with other goodies for actual players and new players. IF by that we can help the server grow, and offer a bigger base for the future. I think it is totally worth it.

The complexity is also the biggest problem with the idea.  Far simpler things have been dismissed as too much effort for NWN Layonara at this stage.  I think you will also find many people here who will tell you Layonara has something unique to offer.  I agree that a larger number of players could be a good thing, but I don't see this particular suggestion being as big a draw as you do, and therefore not worth the effort, at least on as grand a scale as you have laid out.

[Hellblazer]

are you nuts?

Alright then, let's not do anything to try and better the current version and lets stay in the status we are now, with a player base that slowly shrinks. I can remember a time when I started here, that you could easily see 20 to 30 people on at almost any given time. I spent about 6 hours today alone on the server, or with 1 to 4 people joining in. If that's what is "thought" to be good for the server, then so be it. It sure is easier, than trying to find something new that hasn't been done right?

[Shiokara]

It pains me to say this, because I am hardly one to stifle debate, but I can't help feeling that things are getting a little tense here, and are becoming less productive. This is understandable, as we all have a great deal of love and appreciation for the server and those that bring it to us.

Please take a few days to work over your thoughts. Distance yourselves from it, and come back to talk about it again with level heads.

Hellblazer, I understand and respect your innovative ideas for the server, and I understand your argument that this seems like a good plan to generate interest in the sense that the server has not tried it before.

However, I also understand Gulnyr's argument about the sheer amount of work it would take to implement an entirely new system like this, and that the crafting system of that other server does not necessarily draw the higher population.

You both have some good points, and you both clearly have the best interest of Layonara in mind at heart, which is admirable.

I wonder if there can't be a compromise between your ideas? This is to say, not a wholesale lift of what the other server does, and not a complete rejection of "jobs" and titles altogether.

I have thought of a couple options:

1) Make the title/job system more player-centered. The lists of "Active" (described in another post as "the top upcoming crafters list") and "All-time" crafters don't cut it for me, but there doesn't have to be GM involvement to fix this. My personal opinion is that it is easy enough to get noticed if you're a bigwig crafter. The crafters who get the shaft are the small-time crafters, who have to work up to making weapons and such by crafting worthless (to the player-base) items.

Here are my proposals:
Handle new, starting, and lower to intermediate crafter advertisements in large "Bazaar" events and a stickied Crafter ability post in the Marketplace forums. These shouldn't be anything long like price lists, just merely one (updateable) post that tells who the crafter is, what they do, and what items they can make that may be of interest.

These crafters can take on the titles themselves. On a server that RPs as heavily as Layo, I think it would be enough to have a very visible title on the forums. We could even agree on a community for titles. Say 1-3 is apprentice or something. Apprentice, Rookie, Novice, Veteran, Journeyman, Skilled, Expert, Master, and Senior can all be applied to the level ranges as a community agreement in this post. If you want to limit the amount of crafts one should be known for, then go ahead and set a community rule of 2. This way crafts can be taken up and dropped if the crafter is looking for a change of image or something new to do.

Bounties and patrols can be handled in much the same way. Maybe I want to set up a bounty for the goblin chief of Red Light because he DTed me at level 6 and I have a grudge. Granted, that's an OOC reason, but Jeez! Couldn't roll a 7! Out of 100! I think he deserves to die for that, don't you. /endtangent. Some are already handling "jobs" like this--consider the "guide" job of the Stormcrest guides. Or another great example is what Warchild's been doing--setting up food contracts and such to go fishing and to feed the victims of the Tsunami. This brings me to my second solution.

2) Use in-game events as a means for "jobs". Crafters need a job? Why don't you try contacting the Leringard Arms and get a job as a contractor? You can get a bit of pay; maybe a title.

The Tsunami is a big one. The "job" idea here would work quite well. Militia men for security, strong men to clear rubble, crafters for the rebuilding process, cooks to feed the refugees. There're a good deal of possibilities. I can see two ways for this to go. Obviously the crafters can be handled through the donation center and rewarded thus. Crafters could also take independent contracts. I would love to see, for example, some more contracts being sent out from the guilds in Hempstead to help clear trash. They wouldn't even have to offer true, just credit. Similarly, patrols and such can be handled as in-game RP sessions, and the terms of the contract can be decided by the individuals RPing together.

3) A possibility for some crafters (and I don't know if this is already done or not because Layonara's housing is a mystery to me) may to include concepts like this in house remodels. Where instead of the player paying a lump sum of true to get his house redone, he can help reduce the cost of his remodel using some of that true for player contracts to get materials and labor. This way everything is not handled by NPCs and such.

I will come out and say that I don't personally believe in taking a "job" through the forums alone. I definitely think there should be some in-game representation of it, but I don't see why it can't be handled by players.

Thanks for listening. I'm glad you guys are so passionate!

[Gulnyr]

Alright then, let's not do anything to try and better the current version and lets stay in the status we are now, with a player base that slowly shrinks. I can remember a time when I started here, that you could easily see 20 to 30 people on at almost any given time. I spent about 6 hours today alone on the server, or with 1 to 4 people joining in. If that's what is "thought" to be good for the server, then so be it. It sure is easier, than trying to find something new that hasn't been done right?

You quoted me out of context and then built a strawman.  Please read what I wrote again as a whole and consider what I am actually asking.

[Hellblazer]

I had, and still stand by what I wrote. There is a status quo of the easier to do is the way to go, that I find irritating. And it's not with keeping that mindset that things will improve player wise.

now don't get me wrong, what they did in the recent update is great, but still, there could be a lot of other things done that would help, new systems that has been proposed by players. But due to the coding it would take and the balancing it has not seen the day. It's true that not everything that someone propose is feasible, but if it is done else where, why would it be so hard to do here? It's not that we have to do it exactly how they did, but if the idea is good, and obviously there is something over there that must be good. Well why can't we try to implement it and see if it brings in more people? If not, well we added somethings to the existing player, if a vast majority think they don't like it after trying it, then yank it out. You don't gain anything, if you don't try.

Now I'm going to walk away from this thread, better this way I think.

[Acacea]

The whole point is that there is no one to try and the few people that can try aren't pulled from what they're doing to do massive and complicated systems. It's not about wanting things to stay the same - he's not an "all for the status quo" guy as he is being painted, he's just pointing out the realities of the situation. It's every bit as frustrating to be the messenger as it is to receive the message, in some situations. You can link a hundred other threads where ideas both less complicated, requiring less work, and ultimately for more gain are shaken heads at for multiple reasons.

As suggestion givers it is as much our responsibility to either accept the increasing number of obstacles to get anything in the door and shape our suggestions to those needs - as narrow and difficult as thinking around those roadblocks can be - or crack something open, do it ourselves, and submit it with better chances and the bulk of the work done.

So yes. You don't gain anything if you don't try. Crack open the toolset and give it a good one, y'know?