Nehetsrev Llun, FMRachel, or if you prefer, Me.

[MJZ]

YOU dare disagree with me?! *Breathes fire* Roaar!

Naaaw you're taking my words too harshly, I never said it was blind jingoist flag-waving. Yeah, I just watched Chain of Command recently, I even quoted it in a previous entry (there are four lights)! Performance of a lifetime. Trust me, I grew up watching TNG, I've got nothing against Picard. But no, if you've watched Sisko flip out in countless episodes of DS9, you wouldn't be badmouthing him, you'd be in the corner saying "yessir, nosir, yessir."

You should watch the episode "Far Beyond the Stars," DS9 Season 6, episode #13. It's Sisko's equivalent of "Chain of Command," and if it doesn't make your jaw drop you have no heart and stuffing for grey matter!

As for Patrick Stewart being the best actor in the series... again I must disagree. He doesn't have a very complex personality, besides Data, none of the TNG cast have enormous amounts of depth. They have their foibles, their characteristics, sure, but it is weak when you consider characters like Dukat, Garak, Kira, Odo, and Sisko from DS9.
And I must say I find the acting there of a higher caliber, as well. The actor who plays Weyoun in DS9, for example, a fidigty, cloned Vorta who's grimacing one moment, licking a Founder's boots the next, making death threats the next and laughing warmly the next, also does the Ferengi 'Brunt,' FCA. Brunt is a pushy, stupid, egotistical bully with a vendetta against Quark - if it weren't for the actor's name, I never would have guessed in my wildest dreams it was the same actor. THAT'S good acting. Weyoun himself is a marvel, but when you add Brunt - it's quite a feat of achievement.

What about Andrew J. Robinson? If you've heard of "Dirty Harry," you'll know he managed to disturb mainstream viewers once already. But what he does with Garak is again, fantastic. Watch the episode "The Wire" for a pure display of character - how's that, one side-character in DS9 honestly shows much more backstory, moral and spiritual development than main characters (*cough* Riker *cough* T'Pol *cough* Janeway) in the other series. DS9's writers outdo themselves.

There are also a series of episodes in DS9 that explore an alternate universe, where all the characters have different lives and personalities, but are played by the same actors. In that world, Sisko is a thug-ish, unscrupulous mercenary, Major Kira a manical dominatrix, etc. Their performances there are so convincing that you honestly can't see a single trace of the regular characters they have always played. It's some of the most believable acting I've seen on TV series.

Now let's all have a glass of kanar.


Edit: "Sisko's experiences in DS9 help mold and shape him, while anything that happens in TNG to Picard is forgotten the next day" - Kindo

There, forgot to qualify that myself. It's true that despite TNG's wonderful classical appeal, each new episode it's like the slate is wiped entirely clean. For example, yes, Picard goes through that torture in "Chain of Command." But does it disturb him or change his character as it logically should?  

I think at the base of the matter is, I'm praising DS9 for its character and plot development, perhaps that's not the same rubric others use. I've also always felt that DS9 didn't attract as many fans as the other series because, as was earlier mentioned, there is never an illusion of "good vs. evil" or "right vs. wrong" in DS9. I attributed this to a strain of the American-ish-ness of Starfleet that began with the original Star Trek (hey, it was the 60's after all); gilshem described it as idealism. Those two aren't mutually exclusive, but regardless of how you put it, it's the clear-cut boundaries of "we're good, they're bad" that aggravate me in any form of media, unless it's artistically intentional. I mean, villains in TNG are usually also quite hideous, for example. In DS9, the plot and characters revolve around conflicting ideas of morality, spirituality, and whether there really is a "right" or "wrong" side to things. Star Fleet often comes off in a bad light, whole episodes in fact are devoted to it, and the questions of morals raised are never brushed aside, but do continue to trouble the characters. That adds a great deal of realism!

[Hellblazer]

yes Ds9 was a very personal view on the characters of the people. Remember that Sisko lost his wife at wolf. Where to when you look at Picard he was always about duty first, which is an other ball game all together. I loved the conflict him and berverly had about the prime directive, him being all about protecting it, and her about her vows.

There is also the fact that TNG was not linear like DS9 was. Most of the episodes of DS9 followed a plot line as to TNG was more multiple series of separate events.

[Talan Va'lash]

At first, I was just gonna come in here and give my vote for TNG over DS9, but the more I read the posts here I remembered all the stuff I liked about DS9 and the commentary about DS9 being way more character driven, or at least character focused is spot on. I'd never really thought about it before though oddly.

DS9 has a darker feel and what I miss in it is the theme of exploration, uncharted space... which is really pretty central to the entire concept of star trek.

I'm still voting TNG over DS9 as my preference but I'm definitely going to aknowledge that there was some good stuff in DS9.

---

Oh, and while I was on break this week (spring break) and lounging about in the afternoons I was watching Voyager reruns on Spike (which had previously been rerunning TNG.) It's got some neat stories but sometimes it seems like they can't create an interesting plot without relying on crutches like time travel, or memory loss or adding in something thats "weird." Most of the time it either, still isn't interesting, or feels contrived.

Voyager was the last star trek series I really payed attention to at all. That was what... 1996?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

*points up at TV* What he said.

Honestly, though, Babylon 5 blew all the Star Trek series...es? away in terms of depth of feeling and actual progression of the storyline. I love Star Trek, but it was always so solidly episodic. It followed the main plot even less often than Cowboy Bebop.

Battlestar Galactica, the new one, really reminds me of Babylon 5. I need to go download those...

[Kindo]

I love Star Trek, but it was always so solidly episodic. It followed the main plot even less often than Cowboy Bebop.

Deep Space Nine had eight-part episodes. Unheard of in any other Star Trek series. More than half of season six, and almost the entire season seven is focused on the main plot. The writers really went out of their way to focus on the war and all matters related to it. The way it affects each and every character is portrayed with utmost skill. The progress in DS9 never feels even nearly as sporadic as the one in TNG.

Oh, and while I was on break this week (spring break) and lounging about in the afternoons I was watching Voyager reruns on Spike (which had previously been rerunning TNG.) It's got some neat stories but sometimes it seems like they can't create an interesting plot without relying on crutches like time travel, or memory loss or adding in something thats "weird." Most of the time it either, still isn't interesting, or feels contrived.

I agree. Voyager was... on rare occasions entertaining. Sometimes they explored something interesting, but after having watched almost all of DS9 now, I can only say that Voyager is extremely week in comparison. The characters are almost all, utterly boring and bland. The show had its bright days, but very few of them.

[Nehetsrev]

Well, I might have to start trying to see if DS9 is playing on any of my local stations still or not and give it a go.  It does sound more interesting than TNG from what I've read in this thread.  And if Battlestar Gallactica is reminescent of Babylon 5 on some levels, that too may bear further viewing (though I'll always have a special place in my heart for the old Cylons and their bouncing red-lights for eyes...).

Now, to something different...  Anyone up for a few pole-holes of disc-golf?  Hehehehe.  Went out to play some yesterday afternoon with my Dad at one of the local parks here (we've got about 4-5 different courses here in Tulsa).  Ended up winning by seven 'strokes' despite the fact I put my disc in the water twice and had to go wading or fish it out with a stick.  We'll probably start playing on a weekly basis again, which is something I'm looking forward to.  I'll have to remember to wear my hiking shoes next time, my loafers weren't meant for scrabling up and down muddy creek-banks and the like.  Hehehehehe.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

What is disc-golf?

[Nehetsrev]

What is disc-golf?

It's like golf, but played with specialized 'frisbees' that are generally a tad smaller and quite a bit heavier than normal 'frisbees'.  A course can consist of either nine or eighteen pole-holes, which are specially designed 'baskets' that you attempt to throw your disc into in as few 'strokes' as you can manage.  Most disc-golf courses can be found at public parks in larger cities across the United States, and are free to play on.  I'm not sure about whether the sport is widely known in other countries throughout the world though.

Here's a link to the website of one of the leading manufacturer's of Disc-golf discs:  INNOVA Champion - #1 in Disc Golf

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

That's pretty sweet... I think I'll check that out.

[Nehetsrev]

You're quite welcome.  I hope you're able to find a course in your area.  If you do find a course and decide to try it, you can go to the site I linked to in my previous post and see where their discs are sold in your area as well.

Though there are often tournaments for everyone from beginner to pro, I've never entered one myself, though I have seen one of the pro-tournaments as it was being held at Haikey Creek Park here in Tulsa a few years back.  The distance and accuracy some of the pros manage is astounding.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Anyone up for a few pole-holes of disc-golf?  Hehehehe.  Went out to play some yesterday afternoon with my Dad at one of the local parks here (we've got about 4-5 different courses here in Tulsa).  Ended up winning by seven 'strokes' despite the fact I put my disc in the water twice and had to go wading or fish it out with a stick. .

I love disc-golf.  --  You should ask Talan about losing discs in the water... *grumbles*