Europeans: How are your gas prices?

[Doc-Holiday]

Oh good grief... I shouldn't have read this because now I have to respond and I work hard to keep my political leanings hidden. So I will try to keep this as apolitical as possible.

First off... stop complaining fellow Americans. We have it easy, why? Because President Bush has and is negotiating with OPEC for lower prices for America. I may shock you but America is a producer nation... we have oil and we pump it from our own fields so again our prices are lower.

Now for a rant to end all rants and please follow. America used to use only its own oil up to about 50 years ago. With rising pressure from ecologial activists American Policy on oil production was hardened against oil companies, No more oil refineries could be build without SIGNIFICANT amounts of red tape so harsh that no new Oil Refineries have been built in America for nearly 50 years. Our current refineries are running under outdated technology and are beyond their operational years. Why not rebuild them? You can't, Enviornmental Policy is so restrictive it prevents any beneficial upgrades (a company won't upgrade if it will hurt them a great deal more than help).

Now what about those EVIL American oil companies? yeah they suck huh? and the President? yeah he's got SECRETE DEALS WITH THEM YEAH! Oh shut the blankity up. First off the American Oil Companies are Privately Owned in name only. In America our Oil Industry is told Where and When to drill, how much to get, how much to sell it for, who to sell it to, when to sell it, what grades can be made, what additives to put, EVERY state in America has it's own gas ordinances making for 52 diffrent blends of gas, each of wich must pass through one of our hand full of aging refineries. This artificial restriction in supply has raised our gas prices, on top of that our Friends the Democrats LOVE tax hikes... after all taxes solve everything, so we have insane taxes on our gas. Then the additives also have to be refined and added, and taxed.

What about the Government? Well, they raise gas taxes every year to pay for more road work, and so that they can punish the EVIL oil Companies. All by our happy consent, year after year raising those taxes. The companies won't innovate or change what they are doing because it's just prohibitive to do so. After all, the Democrate moto is Government can do it better. Oil companies make their profit NOT on gas but on the millions of OTHER things that are made from crude oil.

Crude Oil? What does it make? Gas, deisel... uh... plastic? Yes, and more. Food, synthetics, platistics, lip balm, Asphalt, car parts, computer parts, clothing, shoes, office supplies, medical supplies, the list litteraly goes on for pages. Well... um, the gas stations are cheating us! yeah... maybe, some probably are. But just a the Oil Industry doesn't make it's money on gas (who could? just look at the rediculous regulations) Gas Stations sell gas with just enough mark up to keep the pumps running, the food and store supplies generate the largest amount of revenue for the Stations, the gas just brings customers.

While were talking about Crude Oil, can anyone tell me what it is? Oh! it's dead dinasour fossils, that's why we call it "Fossil Fuel" Right?... uh.. right? Well... no... maybe.. but, we don't know what Crude Oil is. Now your saying, I read that in a very official looking book! I remember it in school! Yes... right next to the chapter talking about the "Theory" of Evolution as being solid scientific fact. Fact is most people have a "sence of knowing" about Crude Oil and like Evolution , it's just enough of a feeling to keep you from looking at other possibilities. Allow me to elaborate a moment and draw a few conclusions. First, If Cude Oil was realy decomposed animal material, then we could replecate it's production just like diamonds and other biological synthetics. Well, no. To date we have no idea how to Synthesise Crude Oil, in fact the "Fossil Fuel" came from a marketing Campaign some years ago to tie in with the exploding rise in Evolution and dinasour phenomina in our culture.

Now, allow me to make some logical extensions. If we don't know what Crude Oil is, then we don't know where it comes from. We know rightly WHERE it is, but we don't know what causes it. IF Crude Oil is NOT a one time biological mishap then at some time in the past the PRODUCTION of Crude Oil had to begin. It is not impossible to conclude that Crude Oil is a Geological Phenomina with unknown causes and a very KNOWN result. Also if this production happnened in the past it is not impossible to assume that production could very well still be accouring since we DONT know WHAT it is, or WHERE it comes from. You might say But we do! Animals! Dinasours! well... no.. I don't think so. It's a possiblility but a remote one. Consider the amount of fuel pulled already. With only one known accourance of a world wide disaster there was only so much life on earth when it happened... in order for the amount of oil to equal the amount of flesh of animals then we are looking at a world stacked like cord wood. No I think another possibility has been left unconsidered. You may say IT TOOK MILLIONS OF YEARS! yes.. and they would have decompsed LONG before the turned to oil, only the animals that were in the disaster and under certain conditions would have changed. The probability is to remote, the answer lay in something far less fantastic. As it were, we don't know. Also if the phenomina of Crude Oil happened in the past, then it could certaintly being accouring in the present, allow me to shock you. It could very well be a "regenerating" or, continuing to be produced. NO! you say? well... oil fields DO produce more oil. that's why we can pump them for so long. Yes we can tap them to the bottom but there is still more sludge oozing in and in time, you can pump that too. Fields don't collapse... they just slow down in production when they are pumped for a long time.

Why don't we do more looking into it? Well, there are many political factions that would find a change in the accepted view of oil as a negative. Ecological Extreamists would not have the power to raise the funds they do every year by claiming limited resourses and Global Warming. Democrates would not be able to cry disaster EVERY FREAKING FOUR YEARS.

In summation, there are a GREAT deal of misconceptions of the nature of Crude Oil, of the American Government, of the way the world works. We run around knowing just enough to not know we don't know and we spout our unknowing so often. My political leanings you ask? Yes, I am an EVIL republican, yes I think we have a good man in office, no I don't think he's perfect, he's human. However I pay attention to the past and learn from history. There are a faction of people in America who would do well to see America lose it's power, it creates insecurity and causes the masses to clamour to them for protection.

Well my boss is in the room and he hates Republican's so I have to go and use my Mind Control on him and then go do my Evil Republican work to destroy the envornment, make ozone holes to fry the Canadians, raise the sea level to drown the British, cause "instibility" in the east to make the French and Germans look bad, an suppress women and minorities. If you think I am joking... listen to American polotics every fourth year... it will amaze you.

[Sylance]

There were some prices in kansas at 6.50 a gallon! (after hurrican katrina)  The prices where i am at topped off at 3.80 a gallon.  *sighs* I remember when gas was .90 a gallon......does anyone else remember that?  The good ol'days...

[ZeroVega]

 Gas was around $2 here a year ago when I first moved here. It's all about the business though and how people can make more money.
   First moved here Charlotte had a population of about 500'000 people, now it's up to about 900'000. Gas stations have a higher demand for gas so they raise their prices. (Gone up from $2 to an average of about $2.50.
   After hurricaine Katrina went up to about $3.20-3.40. People pannic when they hear something bad about gas, so they rush out to stock up, which the gas stations take advantage of and use to drive up the prices.
   Over the past week gas prices have gone down because people realised that we have the oil/gas, and America's not running out. The refineries and transportation of that oil though has slowed. Once people figured that out, no more pannic, and gas stations once again had to rely on good prices for competitive business.

[NEXUS7]

Or you could get a

[IDii]

Seems the gas prices are going up again... with this new hurricane.

Gah. And they're not even here...

I think Finland should invade Iraq. Then we could have cheap gas for a while.
Oh wait... that means I'd have to go there myself. Err... nevermind.

[Lord of the Forest]

heh, let us all go to iraq then, you know, we could make the Layonara Con in iraq, by the way we'll take as much as we can carry or just buying an oil-field there

[PsychicToaster]

One pithy remark sparked a typical RadCon response.  Ok here goes.

Doc-Holiday - 9/21/2005  1:01 PM
Now for a rant to end all rants and please follow. America used to use only its own oil up to about 50 years ago. With rising pressure from ecologial activists American Policy on oil production was hardened against oil companies, No more oil refineries could be build without SIGNIFICANT amounts of red tape so harsh that no new Oil Refineries have been built in America for nearly 50 years. Our current refineries are running under outdated technology and are beyond their operational years. Why not rebuild them? You can't, Enviornmental Policy is so restrictive it prevents any beneficial upgrades (a company won't upgrade if it will hurt them a great deal more than help).

Now what about those EVIL American oil companies? yeah they suck huh? and the President? yeah he's got SECRETE DEALS WITH THEM YEAH! Oh shut the blankity up.

So that's why he appointed a former ChevronTexaco Lawyer to head the FTC, a credential her official bio neglects to mention, and then conveniently enough in the wake of suspected price gouging its her job to investigate the situation.  It is her responsibility in this situation to recuse herself from this investigation.  Public trust in the government requires avoiding even the appearance of corruption.  That doesn't mean asking people to close their eyes and look the other way.

This artificial restriction in supply has raised our gas prices, on top of that our Friends the Democrats LOVE tax hikes... after all taxes solve everything, so we have insane taxes on our gas. Then the additives also have to be refined and added, and taxed.
What about the Government? Well, they raise gas taxes every year to pay for more road work, and so that they can punish the EVIL oil Companies. All by our happy consent, year after year raising those taxes. The companies won't innovate or change what they are doing because it's just prohibitive to do so. After all, the Democrate moto is Government can do it better. Oil companies make their profit NOT on gas but on the millions of OTHER things that are made from crude oil.

Nobody loves tax hikes and it is plain wrong of you to demonize a large portion of the nation with such an ad hominem defense of your position.  Instead of reasonably considering why public revenue policy is required to pay for public services you are ascribing to them a patently false emotional attatchment to taxes.  They won't inovate or change because they have a vested interest in preserving the status quo, so do the politicians that defend them.

Crude Oil? What does it make? Gas, deisel... uh... plastic? Yes, and more. Food, synthetics, platistics, lip balm, Asphalt, car parts, computer parts, clothing, shoes, office supplies, medical supplies, the list litteraly goes on for pages. Well... um, the gas stations are cheating us! yeah... maybe, some probably are. But just a the Oil Industry doesn't make it's money on gas (who could? just look at the rediculous regulations) Gas Stations sell gas with just enough mark up to keep the pumps running, the food and store supplies generate the largest amount of revenue for the Stations, the gas just brings customers.

Production and distribution are not the same thing.  Gas stations purchase their supply at radically inflated prices from the producers(these are the people doing the gouging, not the gas stations), even when they are under the same umbrella corporation it is not freely supplied to individual stations.  The fact of the matter is OPEC is a cartel whose survival depends upon the cooperation of all involved, and so far everyone is cooperating to pad their own pockets.  The price you pay at the pump has more to do with the producer than the gas station.

While were talking about Crude Oil, can anyone tell me what it is? Oh! it's dead dinasour fossils, that's why we call it "Fossil Fuel" Right?... uh.. right? Well... no... maybe.. but, we don't know what Crude Oil is. Now your saying, I read that in a very official looking book! I remember it in school! Yes... right next to the chapter talking about the "Theory" of Evolution as being solid scientific fact.

There is no such thing as scientific fact.  Theory is just that.  It does not need your implied irony.  Do not attempt to exploit the uncertainty inherent in science simply to make a point.  Conclusion is reached by consensus, the same way it is reached in a courtroom.  There is a body of evidence, theories that take into account and reasonably explain the processes given the available data, and the most cogent, testable, repeatable, and applicable of these becomes accepted.  The scientific method is an ongoing process, not a means to some omniscient wisdom.  Conventional wisdom does not constitute scientific consensus.  

Fact is most people have a "sence of knowing" about Crude Oil and like Evolution , it's just enough of a feeling to keep you from looking at other possibilities. Allow me to elaborate a moment and draw a few conclusions. First, If Cude Oil was realy decomposed animal material, then we could replecate it's production just like diamonds and other biological synthetics. Well, no. To date we have no idea how to Synthesise Crude Oil, in fact the "Fossil Fuel" came from a marketing Campaign some years ago to tie in with the exploding rise in Evolution and dinasour phenomina in our culture.

Again, conventional wisdom does not constitute a scientific consensus.  That sense of knowing you describe is called confirmation bias.  In both biogenic and abiogenic petroleum production theories there is a tendancy to interpret data in only a favorable way.  Likewise, because the only testable way to disprove abiogenic petroleum production is to drill in places that are not guaranteed to be sources of crude oil, companies flat out refuse to drill.  

Second, it is a logical fallacy to assume that because we can reproduce one geologic process that we can reproduce another that very probably has a biochemical element to it.  Carbon into diamonds requires no biological reagents or catalysts.  It is a far simpler process by comparison to catagenesis.

Third, you are right, fossil fuel is a misnomer.  Fossils by definition were not subjected to catagenesis.  

Now, allow me to make some logical extensions. If we don't know what Crude Oil is, then we don't know where it comes from. We know rightly WHERE it is, but we don't know what causes it. IF Crude Oil is NOT a one time biological mishap then at some time in the past the PRODUCTION of Crude Oil had to begin. It is not impossible to conclude that Crude Oil is a Geological Phenomina with unknown causes and a very KNOWN result. Also if this production happnened in the past it is not impossible to assume that production could very well still be accouring since we DONT know WHAT it is, or WHERE it comes from. You might say But we do! Animals! Dinasours! well... no.. I don't think so. It's a possiblility but a remote one. Consider the amount of fuel pulled already. With only one known accourance of a world wide disaster there was only so much life on earth when it happened... in order for the amount of oil to equal the amount of flesh of animals then we are looking at a world stacked like cord wood. No I think another possibility has been left unconsidered. You may say IT TOOK MILLIONS OF YEARS! yes.. and they would have decompsed LONG before the turned to oil, only the animals that were in the disaster and under certain conditions would have changed. The probability is to remote, the answer lay in something far less fantastic. As it were, we don't know. Also if the phenomina of Crude Oil happened in the past, then it could certaintly being accouring in the present, allow me to shock you. It could very well be a "regenerating" or, continuing to be produced. NO! you say? well... oil fields DO produce more oil. that's why we can pump them for so long. Yes we can tap them to the bottom but there is still more sludge oozing in and in time, you can pump that too. Fields don't collapse... they just slow down in production when they are pumped for a long time.

Petroleum did not come from dinosaurs, or their extinction.  Deposits date from Cambrian to Cretatceous periods, the very beginning of the dionsaurs.  Most are underwater and if biogenic theory is followed, came from plants and other microorgansims (most likely extreophiles) not animal tissue.  If abiogenic theory holds, the presence of oil in those layers suggests it rose to that depth from far deeper in the crust and that the petroleum is in fact far older than the surrounding rock.  As for it being a continuing process, that is possible but unlikely.  The concentration of hydrocarbons in lower layers is far lower than at the time of formation of the Earth.  Even if it is regenerating it is not nearly outpacing our pumping capability.

Why don't we do more looking into it? Well, there are many political factions that would find a change in the accepted view of oil as a negative. Ecological Extreamists would not have the power to raise the funds they do every year by claiming limited resourses and Global Warming. Democrates would not be able to cry disaster EVERY FREAKING FOUR YEARS.

If you're refering to 9/11 and Katrina being 4 years apart, that has nothing to do with political affiliation.  Those were legitimate disasters for America and the aftermath saw permanent rises in oil prices.  Global warming is gaining widespread acceptance in scientific circles around the globe.  Our biosphere is not invulnerable and a growing number of scientists and politicians in many countries are beginning to see that.  They are not ecological extremists, and again you are coloring the debate by painting legitimate scientists as such.

In summation, there are a GREAT deal of misconceptions of the nature of Crude Oil, of the American Government, of the way the world works. We run around knowing just enough to not know we don't know and we spout our unknowing so often. My political leanings you ask? Yes, I am an EVIL republican, yes I think we have a good man in office, no I don't think he's perfect, he's human. However I pay attention to the past and learn from history. There are a faction of people in America who would do well to see America lose it's power, it creates insecurity and causes the masses to clamour to them for protection.

Nobody said Republicans are evil, at least not that I have seen.  Likewise no one is calling for America to "lose its power."  However, there are many calling for positive patriotism in which criticism and democratic principles are encouraged rather than stifled with "with us or against us" rhetoric.  Complete security cannot be provided by anyone or any government.  Government administrates the collective resources of the people it governs for mutual benefit but it cannot provide everything for everyone.  It can insulate from many threats, but not all of them, which is why we have the 2nd ammendment (likewise we have the second ammentment to protect us from soldiers being used against civilians).  

There is an economics principle at work with regard to the environment.  It is called the tragedy of the commons.  When something is freely available (air for instance) it is not taken into account cost/benefit anaylsis, so production is greater than ideal and price is lower than ideal.  By forcing companies to remain accountable for damage they do to the environment production and market price shift closer to the ideal mark.  Yes, this means lower production and higher cost.  That is not anti-corporate any more than requiring a driver's liscence is anti-citizen.

[minerva]

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=155&photoid=4298

[Variable]

Hehe thats a great image,
  but luckily here in CO gas is only $2.82 per gallon, it shot up to around 3.20 after Katrina but came back down. I expect that it'll be back up there soon with Rita coming...
  Well i'm glad i don't live on the gulf coast.

[Doc-Holiday]

Oh heck yeah... they get pounded by storms every year, year after year... I couldn't do it. I saw my house burn once and I hope to never relive that moment. But to think that every year you could be building a new home.... more than once... is just more than I think I could take.

[Kapitän Awesome]

It makes you think, "Why don't they move?"

Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but i was talking to my friends' dad, who keeps up with stuff like this, and he said that scientists are trying to find a chemical compound called H3 to substitute for gas. It's extremely efficient, and does a lot less to the atmosphere (releases less CO2, i believe). And--the part i wasn't so sure about--there are some samples on the moon that they're trying to collect.

Also, they're working on creating nuclear power plants that have hydrogen as waste, instead of whatever it usually is. They're thinking about using this for fuel, too, if the H3 thing doesn't work out.

If I'm wrong, correct me please...I don't like bein in the dark about these things  

[steverimmer]

I was watching a program extolling the virtues of using hydrogen as a fuel for car's in the future instead of petrol but the problem with engines which run on hydrogen is that they produce water as a waste product, just as fossil fuel internal combustion engines produce CO2.  This sounds great doesn't it?  After all theres nothing wrong with water as a waste product is there?

Actually though the water it produces is in the form of a gas not water vapour or liquid water, and there is one big problem with this.  Water in the form of a gas is around about 100 times better at trapping heat than CO2.  So if everyone switched to a Hydrogen powered engine then the Greenhouse effect would almost certainly get a lot worse.

[NEXUS7]

Meeting car and Oil companys notes

Oil-
look Guys the oils going to run out sorry but that the way it is and we are going to have to charge more cuz there less.
Car-
A wait up there you do that and we will take a hit cuz well sell less cas, if you do that we ill have to make small cars that use
less oil
Oil-
Hay wait up there fellers you do that and the driver will use less oil and well take a hit. Now just hear us out here we have an ider
your going to love to make loads of cash for all of us OK.
Car-
well this better be good or its chap Hygrgen or electic cars all the way guy and that you bussness dwon that pan.
Oil-
Ok heres how it gos, you dont make monny and chap small cars right, so how about we keep the cost of oil down for a bit say $35 a barell
Then you sell BIG cars and we mean big Huge oil drinnking monsters, Hell why cas at all well call them HOME TRUCKS.
You put all you have into selling them Adds say how safe they are, adds showing open roads even open land with there huge Home trucks
diveing all over the place. PUSH PUSH PUSH the big car/truck, make it a matter of pride that your car dos less miles to the galon
than any other.HEll even make it UN-American to small girly guy car.
Car-
But why, ok we get rich for a time selling big cars but once the oil price gos up where screwed
Oil-
O no you not thinking, once every one has got a home oil drinking truck, we hike the oil price, send the oil price throw the roof,
then and only then will you custimer relise that there Home Trucks are out of date, what they need now is a small car one that uses
small amount of oil, we will be ok becouse by then oil pirce will be so high we make our cash, and get this YOU GET TO SELL EVERY OWNER
OF A HOME TRUCK A BRAND NEW LOW OIL USE CAR. thats right 1,000,000s of smucks will have to shill out to get a car that dos the same thing
as befor but with a hole he agenda and as its "new" low oil tecknolagey you can charge the earth cuz hay its chaeper than the oild drinking
truck out back. Small is the new big and not galens per mile but miles per galon. Get it.
Car-
O thats good we get to sell the same car twice to the same custimer, I like it, but theres only one problem goverment they
will see right throw this and make us go green.
Oil-
Dont you worry about that, thats all covered

End of meeting notes

[Kapitän Awesome]

@ steve

Maybe we can make the car a bit bigger, and have a little cylinder made especially for the gas. The water gets stuck, you heat it up a bit (or cool it, i'm not in school and forgot the process), and then dump the water out every once in a while

This might get irritating, but it would really help the environment (if it catches on), or perhaps make it empty itself on the road, after it hits a certain point