The World of Layonara
The NWN Persistent World => Layonara Server => Topic started by: Leanthar on May 02, 2007, 12:29:18 pm
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I very nearly closed the servers down this morning, and I mean it was close. The only reason I didnt is because the teams are working so hard on projects that I just couldnt bring myself to harm them or destroy all of their hard work. NwN is old, it is ancient, there is little to no reason to keep the server going except to allow a rare few people to enjoy their time in a world that they like (the few left in the community that still play and still truly like the world). It is only a matter of time before they are closed down, but today just wasnt that day. These servers do nothing but cause me (and a fair few of the individuals on the teams) grief, hardships, frustrations, time away from family and friends, or a whole lot of money. They used to bring a ton of fun and enjoyment but that is no longer the case (for me at least). I now dread waking up and checking the forums because I know the mentality of a few in the community; those that like to rant and rave about how they are so wronged but that they could never do anything wrong. Oh but then when something goes wrong it is our fault (or perhaps more specifically my fault) for some silly or stupid reason; never the fault of their own. Have you wondered why not a whole lot of quests have been run in the plot or why I am not around as much? That is the main reason, at least 70% of the reason. Many on the GM Team cant bring our self to log in for spot quests or impromptu quests very often (myself included) because of all the childish and immature behaviors and attitudes. A few bad apples in the community have nearly burnt every one of us out. Sad isnt it?
Five years ago I started this server off being very wide open to the public with little to no rules other than basic ones. Today look at the line of rules and the restrictions we have had to place on creativity and fun. It shows the state of online gaming and a lack of responsibility and respect in online and offline communities in general. I think it is a very sad thing indeed. It also goes to show why companies out there are moving away from having forums at all for their games, because a few of the very players that claim to love the world that they play in also seem to love to destroy that place. The emotional drama is childish and immature and does not do any community any good, and most certainly not ours.
For various reasons we are going to be changing the way development threads are displayed to the public. We only have two options and I prefer the first but if we are not able to do it we will go with the second option. One of these options will happen over the next few weeks, as we get some time to work on it.
1) We are looking to make it so that a private development thread can be read by a forum member who is a friend (marked as a friend on the forums) of the original poster (thread owner) of a thread.
2) If we are not able to do #1 we will make all development threads private and only the poster and GM Team will be able to read them.
I think it is very sad that we have come to this point but there is no other option. I refuse to continue to waste time, effort, and money watching the community blowup in rants and raves over meta-gaming or outright and blatant (IC) blaming of others in these threads. I put IC in () because a few players try to pull it off as an IC sort of thing when it is clearly not, but they feel we in the community are too stupid to see through that underhanded style of (play). Some players feel that they can point fingers at other players by posting under the pretense of (in character) in their CDTs because they know that certain individuals that meta-game read their threads. And they do it in a low and underhanded way; they are looking to give little jabs here and there and I find that unacceptable, demeaning to themselves as a human being, and just downright low. But I am also done fighting this sort of nonsense. It just drains everybodys will to play in the world, run quests in the world, keep the world servers running at all, or even be anywhere near the community as a whole. To fix the core problem of this sort of (play) that individual must understand that they need to change and then make that effort; there is nothing we can do to help them along.
What is so funny is that some of the worst meta-gamers refuse to even see that they meta-game. It is a mind game that they play with themselves, let alone with all of those around themselves. Some of them know they do it but refuse to try and better themselves. To top it all off some of those same individuals rant and rave when things are meta-gamed back on to them. Its a vicious little cycle of self-denial or not wanting to improve oneself and I am not going to play that childish game any longer.
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I'm so sorry that you no longer derive enjoyment from this world. I feel quite badly for you, especially as it is your world that you created over the years. Much as I love playing Layo, if you're at this point and cant stand it anymore, then maybe it is time for you to shut it down. At some point and time, you have to think of yourself and your family.
Is there no other option? Maybe just banning the worst of the folks for a month or two, as an object lesson? Something other than outright cessation of the world? I hate to even ask, but I have a lot of fun playing Gunther and cant imagine playing on a different server.
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Agreed with what Gunther says... Is there anything we can do to help you, Leanther?
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I don't suppose it's much use to pry into this matter, but I've been absent from gameplay for a bit and this is very confusing to me. I hadn't come across this on the forums on in game - is it occurring on quests? Within certain circles of people? It's very alienating to hear about an issue so troubling that it's sucking the life out of the campaign creator and the team, when I (and the handful of players I've consulted with) don't know what's going on. In any case, I assume it's pretty extensive to be causing this much damage, I just wish I knew exactly what was happening.
I hope this can be worked through - people can request to have their CDTs be private, but really, making all of the threads private would be a sad loss, and I don't think all the players would be as motivated if they knew no one was going to look at them. *Sigh*
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I'm a huge Fan of Layonara and would hate to see it disappear. Like Gunther and Interia before me, is there anything we can do to help? I have had such fun with the friends I've made and the characters I've given life to here that I would hate to lose it all.
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I know money can't buy happiness, but it can buy beer, and that makes some people happy.
$50 Payment submitted. Cheer up Mr. Scott.
Meanwhile, do what you have to do to reduce your stress levels. If that means just ripping down all the rules and bringing Layo back to where it was 5 years ago before the CDT novels and CDQ requirements, 180 pages of player guidelines and etc, then so be it. If that means shutting down the servers so you can get this financial ogre-baby off your back, then do it. Kick the dog, drink a beer, primally scream on the roof if you have to. You're job isn't easy and it's one of the most thankless there is.
So... Thanks Leanthar. We appreciate you.
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Leanthar, I've only been on Layo for a short time, but I've really come to enjoy all the time I spend on it. I recently moved away from my family and my oldest friends in attempt to chase a dream, but that meant making alot of sacrafices and DnD and the like were one of them. This has been my only outlet and it's really been a wonderful experience and I want to thank you and the entire team for all the dedication, creative and hardwork they put in to making this such a great enviroment. It's a shame that because certain people can't take this server for what it is and find it necessary to complain when no one is forcing them to be here. Whenever I've had a problem or question, the GM team has been more than helpful and I hope that they feel I have been polite and thankful in term, because I truly am.
All that being said, this is a short life we all have and when it's avoidable, we shouldn't be waste on time on things that cause us more headache and heartache than joy. If Layonara, which you have given us the privelage (not the right) of playing, is no longer enjoyable to you it really might be time to turn off the open sign for the last time and call it a night. You don't owe us anything. You gave us a great game to play and it's your decision when it's over and if this no longer brings you the fun it should you have every right to send us on our merry ways and for my part I would wish you health and happiness and say Thank you for the fun.
Doug
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Hey now, it's not so thankless! All the many dozens of posts and discussions and IRC chats, and, needless to say, players online at all hours of the day are all silent thanks in themselves, thanks for allowing us to meet and greet and roleplay like mad and bash critters till our robes are torn and bloodied.
This is really starting to sound like a farewell thread. That worries me.
Like lonarrin implied, I think donations would be as good a way as any to help. But I can understand if after all this time and all the trouble and money, it isn't fun any more for Leanthar. If a server is no longer fun for a player, they leave it, too.
But must it come to that? What if L could distance himself a bit from the hustle and bustle of the nagging players, and just consult more with his mods and team-members, thereby reducing the amount of trolls and nasty players he has to deal with personally? Leave some less exhausted fellows to do the more dirty policing, and just keep L informed as to any more pressing matters? May be a bit autocratic, but better perhaps than having our campaign creator dreading to handle his campaign any longer. Nothing could be worse.
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Ditto to what Gunther said. Don't let it for a moment interfere with RL, especially when family is concerned. We'll do just fine without it. Well, some will handle it better than others, but you have to prioritize.
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If I may...
It's not about the money...it never really was, nor could it be. Sure, donate if you feel you're getting enjoyment out of this and if you can, but don't donate out of guilt to keep the server running.
For those who asked, "What can I do?"
Well, the answers are all up in Leanthar's post. Concepts like respect, personal responsibility, common sense and a consideration for your fellow players and those who have put countless hours into this world, be they the admins, the GMs, the Project and/or Writing Teams or simply those outstanding individuals who have made Layonara their virtual home and who in the process have helped to shape it in a positive way.
Respect has gone out the window, and it's unfortunate. What was once a community of people with a common interest in RP and this game world for most has degenerated, and now has significant pockets of gossip, rumors, hateful (yes, hateful) behavior toward other players (not characters, but players), questionable RP, constant pushing and walking of that "thin, grey line". This just ends up frustrating the people who really do care about this world, be they just here to play and enjoy the RP or be they people who have poured their hearts into the place in one way or the other.
So what can you do? It's all here. It's also been covered every time someone on the team asks for people to be respectful of others, to show some consideration and to use common sense when dealing with players, characters, game systems and what not.
Don't get me wrong, there are some very good people here, new and old alike. There are also the proverbial "few bad apples"....and they've just about spoiled the bushel.
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Dear Leanthar,
As others have said, we understand that you need to prioritize your life, and that a game cannot hope to compete with family and such. It truly saddens me that you no longer derive enjoyment from something that has brought joy to so many of us.
The immaturity and acrimony you point out happens, yes, and it sometimes drowns out the many voices of those who try to better the community, but I hope that the latter helps to let you know you are valued, and this world is valued. Unfortunately, behind the mask of the internet's anonymity, many people feel free to act however they want. Given that, I think you have done a fantastic job of reining in many egregious behaviors on the one hand, while giving us a good deal of trust and freedom on the other. Despite the "bad apples" this is without question the best on-line community I have ever been a part of.
Basically, I just want to say there are a great number of players who are very thankful to you, no matter what happens with this server, who will be thankful for the times they had if Layo ends, and will be thankful for the getting to play more if you give us the opportunity.
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Thank you Mr L.
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Thanks for letting me live a "Second Life" here on Layonara, Leanthar....
Well, not just a second life, but a third, and a fourth, and a fifth, and a..........
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Been here for some months now I guess.
Best community I've ever been..
I had no idea online gaming could be as brilliant and rewarding before finding Layonara.
You and the Team have done a impressive job Mr. L, this place is one I am proud to call home.
Thank you greatly.
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I've been here just over a year. I was deployed to Afghanistan for 6 months of that. Reading the forums in my spare time gave me a sense of normal, in a less then normal time. Now I do not want my enjoyment to be the cause of someone else's heartache and pain. So if ya have to do something drastic like shut it down. I'll understand. I would prefer you not to, but I'll understand.
Thanks for all the fun so far
Masterjack
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A brillant world and a brillant mind. I too hope you do not shut it down, but I understand if you do. I almost left coaching this year, just because of the mentality of those "few bad apples". It is a product of our 'me' society, where everyone thinks of themselves and do not count the feelings of others. A song I love puts it this way...
Souls aren't made of stone,
sticks and bones...
(4:12 - Switchfoot)
We like to teach our children that words do not hurt...sticks and stones...but words will never hurt me...but I beg to differ. We are a living soul, a created being, by the one true Lifegiver and sometimes words do cut the soul. Know that I am praying for you L. You and your team. I know you will be granted the wisdom to make the decision that is best for you.
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Respect has gone out the window, and it's unfortunate. What was once a community of people with a common interest in RP and this game world for most has degenerated, and now has significant pockets of gossip, rumors, hateful (yes, hateful) behavior toward other players (not characters, but players), questionable RP, constant pushing and walking of that "thin, grey line".
For one, I haven't come across any of this negativity in my time here, and upon asking some of the friends I've made here, neither have they.
Now, they're choosing not to voice their own confusion here, but still I feel if there are many people completely unaffected by these issues, who haven't even come across them, the bushel can't be just about spoilt. Saying that the server has become a place of hate and bickering is boggling to me. I can't seem to track such behaviour down on the forums and as I've said, I haven't seen it in game. To be frank I'm still at a loss, and I know others who are, too.
In any case, I know that not all respect has gone out the window. I know very well that I'm not on any of the teams and I'm not dealing with these dirty issues, but everyone who's responded here certainly has nothing but respect for the staff, and so are those who haven't posted yet, but soon will. Doesn't it seem as though the respectful still outweigh and outnumber the disrespectful?
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To L and the Community,
I have to be very blunt here...
If there are a few bad apples ruining the bunch well...
Dig them out of the bunch and toss em into the nearest river.
I know that the squeeky wheel gets the grease right? Well sometimes you have to toss out the bad wheel and get a new one.
I would hope that a few problem people do not end up ruining what has become for many of us (the silent majority) a fun and beautiful world to play in.
Warn em, ban em, suspend their access for a while, I don't care, what ever it takes to restore your faith in the community L.
I would hate to see something that so many have poured their hearts and soul into be lost because a few people are being a pain in the rump.
Community:
Perhaps we do not do enough to highlight all of the good things that happen and all of the good experiences that we have here. If something great happens in game POST, let people know the excitement and thrill you felt. Perhaps if the team read some of these types of posts they would see that their efforts are not in vain.
And to the complainers...
Please remember that this is a game, not real life. We come here for enjoyment. Sit back and reflect on all of the good times you have had here before posting something negative. Did that one negative experience wipe out all of the good times?
I think not.
Edit: And I agree with MJZs post... I can't see this problem in game or out, but I'm sure it's real enough to those who deal with it.
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I'll keep this to three things.
I've been here for better than a year and a half, and bloomed from one of those bad apples into a player that at least tries to keep a positive attitude among the playerbase. I love this place. I love the community. I love the Roleplaying that I can do here. I love Layonara, and as long as Layo's around, I will be, too (even if it's only checking the forums once a week or so, occasionally hopping in-game).
Go gestapo on the people making problems. It was a ban that turned me around... You've been really loose with people; really forgiving. In some cases, too much so. Bring the hammer down. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of "security in my own opinion" to keep some of this bloody drama down. If a temporary ban doesn't do it, kick 'em for good.
But... If nothing else works, shut the place down. I can already tell you that an impressive part of the playerbase would suddenly find money that they can't REALLY spare, but are willing to throw at you to keep this place in business... But... If it really is too much, I wouldn't blame you for pulling the plug. I don't think anyone else would, either.
Peace, man.
Things'll clear up.
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If I may wax eloquent on the benefits of Layonara:
I arrived on this server a year and a month ago, and the first thing that struck me was how well everything worked. Not just the architecture (though I gaped at that for a while: Layo really is beautiful, and pushes the limits of the Aurora toolset), but the playerbase. Within minutes of Kell's arrival, he was approached from the shadows by a secretive society, and saved from the ravening jaws of.. a pair of goblin scouts.. by a well-meaning dwarven cleric (who was later in trouble with one of Lucinda's Finest for streaking through Hlint... but that's another story.)
Regardless, it was clear from the start of my time here that this was a server unlike any other. I've had tremendous enjoyment, both from the game itself and from the forums it engendered. My understanding of the mechanics of dungeons and dragons itself has been expanded by the contents of the Roleplaying forum. My abilities as a writer and editor have been honed by Character Submission, CDTs, and simple posting. And my abilities as a roleplayer have expanded as well, more than Pen and Paper ever allowed.
I have also seen people who do not have English as a primary language expand their working knowledge of it enormously simply from in-game interactions and posts to the Forum. As an English affectionado, I cannot help but feel a measure of delight in this. (I love the language - what can I say?)
I've made friends through the game I would never otherwise have met, I've had experiences here that have rekindled interest in AI, logical programming, and design, and for that, and many other things, I thank Leanthar for his inspiration, and the Team for their tireless effort. As MJZ said, this should not ever be a "thankless" task.
As others have put it before me in this thread, do what you have to, L, and we won't begrudge you any choice you make. But I wanted to add my voice to those who haven't seen the negativity, and have only our good experiences to rely on - this is a great place. You do good work, Dan.
Thanks.
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I would like to offer a bit of encouragement and hopefully perspective. Many people understand what I am about to say but I feel I need to say it anyway.
Layo is a unique place on the internet. It is a place where families can play together and kids can enjoy the RP in a DnD world without the baggage carried by many other places where expression is more free. I personally think it would be a great tragedy for you to shut down Layo because of the behavior of some of the players.
It is one thing if it's costing you too much money or interfering with family or work or something but I get the sense that after 5 years of doing this you have those areas pretty well handled. It seems the frustration comes from trying to run things and having people come along who don't appreciate the effort that you and the team have put in and think they can just do whatever they want and ruin things for other people.
I personally hate the idea of having to baby sit people and having to have so many rules to make sure there is a level playing field to ensure people's fun. Its a tough problem to make people be respectful and hold themselves accountable. When people come here new there can be a tendency to treat Layo like every other throw away world out there where you can have some fun and then run off to the next world if you get kicked off of this one. It takes some time to understand things like the fact that you personally put out hundreds of dollars per month and hours and hours of time to make this place work. It takes time to understand how much work it is to make Layo what it is. Once people understand this they usually start to respond differently but it takes time. Maybe something could be done to speed this process. Like I said I hate new rules but maybe an acknowledgement placed in the first character submission by a new player that states an understanding of this would go along way to increase the accountability. Something like:
"I understand that the world of Layonara is a unique and special place and that thousands of man hours and hundreds of dollars per month are being expended by Leanthar and the rest of the great team that make Layo what it is. I pledge to do my best to be responsible and respectful to all of the players and administrators in this community to do my part to help keep Layo special and unique"
Many people would just leave rather than have to make such a statement and that would be a good thing. Others after making this statement may think twice about how they behave in Layo and a third group will disregard it and make the statement and then violate it. For those you have their own pledge to hold them accountable to and if they won't keep their word don't deserve to have the privledge of experiencing what Layo has to offer.
Keep up the good work and I really hope there is a way that this can be remedied and become fun again for you.
I salute you and thank you and the team for the distinct priviledge you offer me.
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Wow....I'm sorry L. I know that I havent' exactly been a man of many words here on the forums but I do really enjoy the world that you have created for us. Thank you for everything! I have to agree with those who have said that if your not getting any enjoyment with Layonara then maybe it is time for a change of some kind. The team has done a great job and I appreciate everyone who has put time, effort, creativity and money into this server, Thank you! As a player who has been here for over two years now I have seen many changes, I have grown as an RP'er and have enjoyed being a part of this community. I have also really enjoyed watching others play and grow thier characters as well as getting to know people from around the world (literally).
For all the players here: The best advice I can offer as to how we can help this situation is think about what we do and how it affects others. It's been said before (thanks Dorg)...respect is a concept that has to be understood. Respect includes following the rules, not challanging the Team when decisions are made and not making work for others (think about those requests before submitting....is it really necessary?) Let's also try to show a little more appreciation (there are many ways of doing this) for this awesome experience we call Layonara.
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To L and the Community,
I have to be very blunt here...
If there are a few bad apples ruining the bunch well...
Dig them out of the bunch and toss em into the nearest river.
I know that the squeeky wheel gets the grease right? Well sometimes you have to toss out the bad wheel and get a new one.
Seconded.
Leanthar and the GM team are decent people. So much so, that the player-base tends to step on them. I am of the opinion that if there are players making the GM's lives miserable, they should be hammered into the deck, with a nice explanation as to why. Then allowed to come back after a suitable cooling off period.
Now, that being said, I'd like to make a request of the GM's: If you have a rule, enforce it. It means nothing otherwise. You have players muling, you have players metagaming and powerleveing their way past 20 in months, and they are given a free pass. The mentality is becoming "If they get away with it, why can't I?". I know that enforcing rules in an onerous, thankless, crappy job. It sucks and it sucks big, but if they are there, they need to be followed or there will be no respect for any of them.
I like it here. I have made RL friends here that I associate with outside of Layo. If the servers shut down tomorrow, I will still have those friends, and for that, I owe a debt of gratitude. I also want to thank the GM that slapped me for OOC last year. It ed me off, but it was done because it was the right thing to do.
If you aren't backing "the right thing", why not?
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Picture it...
You are the DM of a massively wonderful campaign. You have invited several people to play; some you know, some friends of friends, some just showed up because they heard there was gong to be a game. You open your home, set up the play area, supply ample munchies, guide all the players through the creation of their characters, and now it is time to play.
All goes well for a couple of hours, but then some power hungry, dominating, manipulative, poopy-head decides to be a dink. What do you do?
Being the diplomat that you are, you try to discuss how their behavior is not acceptable. When that does not work, you make some rules to cover what you feel needs to be addressed. When that does not work, you use your powers of greatness and domination to call down the smack - wiping out most of the party so that they can help the dink 'get the point'. After awhile, no one is having any fun, and the dink is politely asked to leave. If they don't leave, you cast them from your domicile with a quick boot and lock the door.
Those that remain give a sigh of relief, and much gaming joy commences.
In the end, you have protected your home and your guests from unwanted nastiness, and stress is relieved.
For my part...I'll happily hold open the door while you prepare for the bootage, and I'm sure others would be more than happy to help with other aspects of the 'launch', should you ask.
If all else fails, by all means, cancel the game and ask everyone to leave. After all, this is your game, your creation, your home, your time spent, and your ulcer. Everyone who truly cares will understand. Those who don't, well you don't need to be associating with them anyway.
Just my 2 coppers.
~B
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I would really hate to see Layonara go away. I played here a couple of years ago and thought it was great. I have just recently came back to it and have seen the wonderful development that has happened between the times. I think Leanthar you have done a spectacular job with the world. It is the most alive persistent world that I have came across. It saddens me to hear that you do not get the enjoyment out of it that you once did. I would understand if you shut down the server. If I was in your shoes I would be thinking the same thing, I wouldn't want to create something as good as this world is and see it ruined by a few bad apples.
I would suggest that you give 1 and only 1 warning to those who are ruining your world for you. Send them either an in game message or email warning them that the behavior is not acceptable and if they continued to behavior in a matter that takes fun away from the game, they will be bane permanently. No excuses, not more chances.
It is harsh but sometimes you have to be that way for people to understand that you have reached your limit.
Do what you need to do Leanther to enjoy your world again.
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Hey now, it's not so thankless! All the many dozens of posts and discussions and IRC chats, and, needless to say, players online at all hours of the day are all silent thanks in themselves, thanks for allowing us to meet and greet and roleplay like mad and bash critters till our robes are torn and bloodied.
Oh boy shes right - for 4 months I've been pondering if I should or should not post my thanks but now I feel like I must - just so you know how much people appreciate what you do.
5 months ago I had a serious accident that basiclly left me in recovery for 4 months - I was home bound and other than the occasional visit, Layo was really all I had (Sad but true!!:D) - it kept me going to a degree instead of staying in bed all day :p and sure I had my moments of "grief" (Although I hope not too many)... but never without gratitude for what you guys done for us.
And now that im up on my feet and busy (I miss Layo!) let it be known that nothing can express how much I appreciate the world you forged and the time you sacrficied. You granted other people more than you know.
Thanks L! you're a hero8)
And thanks everyone on the community!
Long live Layo :( show 'em you can behave :p
And just so you know... NWN (Layo included!) much like fine wine... only gets better as it ages:\