The World of Layonara
The NWN Persistent World => Layonara Server => Topic started by: orth on October 01, 2008, 11:36:47 pm
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Hello again,
I've received a couple queries to the status of donations which I wanted to address with the upcoming changes to the servers.
Essentially what we've always hoped for in terms of donations was enough to offset the costs to host NWN. That was five servers and their bandwidth. At its peak, Leanthar was paying over $500 a month for these servers. Over the summer it was closer to $300, but the charges were going to be over $1000 a month with the new billing structure. An impossible price.
The donations always helped and each of us was always afraid of the potential of Leanthar just really not being able to cut it any more. I lost sleep when he told me of the new pricing and the inevitability of the downtime. In the end Leanthar and I both had many reasons for finding every way possible to keep NWN going. Despite the financial weight which could be better spent, the occasional stress, the time lost better spent on future development, we really want NWN to keep serving our world.
There are a lot of people who help right now, the developers, the gamemasters, the character approvers, the lore team, the writers, the mmo team who have all helped us in the direction we seek and to continue to serve Layonara as a magnificent world realized in the form of a video game. To not bridge the time from now until the release of the mmo with a video game entity of Layonara would in our minds have been a disservice to everyone who helps out. Then there's the rest of the community, those who have been here for long times and those of you who have just fallen in love with Layonara. Despite the very limited amount of rotten apples in the orchard, we really enjoy hearing about the great times you've had. Your creative outlets both in game and in the forums. Your community spirit and support.
It is also no secret, we are hoping each of you will see NWN to the other side, and give us a chance in our future generation. Having even a fairly small starting community will be a boon to attracting more folks. Especially those very well versed in roleplay and its potential for enjoyment. And I certainly know the benefits in terms of seeking beta testers with technical aptitude. I truly hope we can carry this weight that NWN can sometimes be across the bridge. There are still concerns beyond the financial strain. The most important being time dealing with the inevitable issues that serving the world brings up.
Finally on a personal note, where would I be without having some Plenarius time? I'm not ready to just write him off in a story, I want to play it out where it all started.
So we have taken quite a downsize, we've lost 7 servers, 5 for NWN which will be combined into 2 in Montreal. 1 for DB and fileshare, and 1 to run West and Central. We'll probably have to do without a Quest server unless we can run a third module on the one server, which Dorganath and I doubt. We also lost 2 of our development servers. All of our hosting, 5 servers, is now in Montreal. 4 of these are paid by OneST8, one of them is piggy backed with some of our (him and I) other personal pages. The 5th one we're getting tomorrow/Friday will be paid by me. The tasks the 2 development servers from San Jose handled are now squeezed into the 3 remaining servers in Montreal. We have assurances from EdTheKet, Dorganath and Thak that they can help the financial strain if necessary.
So here's the deal, if you want to keep helping out to say thanks for fronting the cost of the bandwidth and server for NWN, keep donating. With that said, the truth is that we will continue to eat the costs ourselves regardless if you donate or not as the servers will be used for our future whether they host NWN or not. NWN Layonara is in good hands for now, but be willing to accept its inevitable departure, hopefully with fair warning.
If you want to say thanks to Leanthar for all he's paid in the past until now then donate. (Expenses incurred are over $20,000, that is minus all past donations.)
If you want to help OneST8 and I foot the bill, hey thanks... donate. (Average monthly bill for the two NWN servers will be $200)
If you're excited about our future and wish to help us in that regard, donations are welcome.
To recap, you owe us nothing but continuing to enjoy the world, or if you have the time, continuing to volunteer as you can and hopefully you will give us a chance with the future generation of Layonara.
If for whatever reason you just can't donate. It's cool, don't feel bad, we'll do our best to stay alive. Alas, all good things eventually come to an end, but we're pretty confident we'll have a phoenix rising from the ashes. Hope to see you there to witness it!
-James
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NWN Layonara is in good hands for now...
None better.
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Donations to L thru paypal still the best way?
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Donations to L thru paypal still the best way?
Yes please. Knew I forgot something.
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Thank you very much for doing this. This really shows a true love for the community. You all had a tough choice in front of you and you made the one that was the harder. You all rock!
My donation is in. Lets go guys, lets use this time to help them shoulder at least the cost part of this burden.
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I guess I'll be the first to say it - thanks for the clear explanation on things (financial) Orth.
I think there's been a fair bit of discussion as to what the actual breakdown of costs were when all aspects of Layonara were brought into play. And it brings a lot of value to the table when it's discussed in plain financial terms. I, for example, had no idea that the NWN portion of the endeavor was running off 5 servers. And I know I'm kind of a simple guy once tech goes beyond the toolset, but in my mind I was looking at two servers and the DB needs, so I obviously didn't quite grasp the true dynamic of how NWN Layo was running. Actually, I still don't understand when you say 5, but I've resigned myself to ignorance. Granted, my servers ran off podunk 'sorry, you don't have service this week' hosts, but whenever I looked at the posted costs for Layo I scratched my head at the accounting. I've seen L's 20k figure a few times now, and while I still don't know what part of that is NWN and what part is the business venture - your post holds a lot of value to me in that it feels like an attempt in earnest to let us know the gig.
It has got to be a bit heart wrenching for L to look at what equates to ~$300 personal monthly costs for the many years this effort has been running. Building a brand has it's costs, and hey, it's a brand - it must take some serious fire under your heiney to stay the course. But it must get tricky when you get into the balancing act of steering towards the future while maintaining some compassion towards the small community of your past. Especially one that has not come through on their portion of the costs of NWN over the past several years.
And it's tricky for the community as well. They look at the game they want to play now, this instant, for their gratification - and see it lumped into a vague concept of the brand's business venture. No doubt everyone here wants to be part of the Layo 'team' and help out, but hey, I guarantee you guys have seen it on the MMO end - certainty in your investors is a fickle thing, even amongst friends. To extend that thought to the entire population of your playerbase... talk about fickle.
Anyhow, this is getting to be a bit of a roundabout way of remarking on this:
Of course this hurts the MMO. Any time someone in the core team spends on NwN slows the progress of this dawn of a new age of Layonara.
I highly doubt I'm going to get any 'thanks' button hits on this since it gets a bit into the touchy zone.... but I sure as green tells know that it's something that folks talk about. And if Orth's big enough to extend his hand then the least I can do is speak honestly. And I fear that on the player's end of this that this honesty is overly rare in the face of their desire to be a part of the gang and rah-rah the development effort. That rah-rah isn't getting L anywhere in regard to financial backing, so here's an honest tack.
I'll pay my monthly on the MMO the instant it comes up. I will. Regardless of where I am, what I'm playing, I'm going to get in there and give it a shot. But I'm a player, not an investor who stands to be around for the longer term benefits of involvement on the business side - all I see now is risk with no business ties to me or my benefit. So, speaking coldly, there's no differentiation between it and NWN from the investment standpoint. The lone investment I have to look forward to paying dividends is the token forum response someday of 'I was playing Layonara NWN V1 when your granpappy was in diapers!'.
I'm an NWN fanatic, to a fault. And ever since the Dan's post on June 4th of 2007, the end of my character and the Layonara I know right now has been more dire in my mind then anything else involving this game. It still is. Make no mistake, I'm as rah-rah about Layo as anyone here, and I like to think that I'm in a good enough position in regard to time investment to say that. The gap that I see is in how we balance "now" versus the MMO. Orth's coming clean so the playerbase may as well eh?
Break the costs down for us in their entirity in running NWN. You guys work on your business and we cover NWN. I think it's fair to say that you're not getting much from the playerbase in the way of covering MMO expenses heh, so call it good on that end and concede that you may as well not sustain a loss on NWN. Now, you're probably thinking "well, NWN has never been covered, and I'm in the red for it". And... you may be right. Maybe the community won't come through. But give us a clear chance and give it to us with full visibility so that folks know exactly what they're paying for.
First, break down the server costs, web costs, lore-page costs, DB costs, and explain how it all works and why it's needed for NWN specifically. Second, for people to invest they need confidence in a timeline, as well as a seamless transition into your new medium. I'm personally not going to throw in money when my character could go up in flames two months from now without warning. Actually, strike that. I don't want warning. As excited as I am about the MMO, it's bittersweet. I don't want to hear about the MMO while I'm standing here in NWN. What I do want to hear is that the instant my little gnome or dwarf here is done, that I will be able to pick up a handbook, take whatever period of time I want to in reading through and planning my new character while listening to some inspiring music or perhaps spending a few leisurely half hour sessions on the toilet, send in my monthly fee, and log in at my leisure to the new Layonara... without a single faltered step from when NWN goes pop into the abyss.
And then it's on us. Now, as a player who's no longer associated with Layonara in anyway developmentally or administratively the second I upload this last version update, I'm also going to speak plainly to the rest of my fellow players. Sack up. Let's go ahead and come forward with a large group of us who sign on for keeping it rolling until it's gone. And L, Orth, all you - I know that you are probably cringing at EULA right now... but come on, we're talking about an adventuring company, a group of friends who ante's up the same amount every month to keep the server host fees paid. There ain' a darn thing wrong with that. Being organized to maintain community faith as well as viable result is not against EULA.
If enough folks come in to bring it down to a manageable cost, I'm in. If not... I say scrap it and throw NWN in the trash. Almost all of us will come back for the MMO anyhow, and with what I've said above, it's a player here saying that it's not your fault, not you guys saying it to yourselves.
The thing I dislike more then anything else in all of this is uncertainty. Uncertainty that when the rug gets pulled out that I won't have the MMO right there to catch me with another character to dream up. Uncertainty that L will run out of money and NWN will be the first to go while the MMO is still a ways off. Uncertainty like the post in 2007 or the post just this last week spelling out an uncertain end. Because, as a self-centered player... then where am I? I'm in meltdown and grasping at any other straws out there to maintain an online community.
And finally, uncertainty that the community won't rally. So folks, rally. It's not about 'I can do 50' or 'I can do 10 this month' or 'I can do 100 next year'... it's 'we can get enough of us to split it'. And we're pitiful if we can't. Not only that, but we're proving the financial point to L that we're expendable. Someone start a post. We'll count the yes's by the end, look at the itemized costs, and split it up.
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I guess I'll be the first to say it - thanks for the clear explanation on things (financial) Orth.
Actually, I still don't understand when you say 5, but I've resigned myself to ignorance.
Quick start, more thoughts obviously from your post, but just wanted to clear this up.
1. West
2. Central
3. Quest
4. Player Vault (bic storage)
5. MySQL server for persistence.
4 and 5 probably could have managed on the same machine. Quest was a luxury.
I've seen L's 20k figure a few times now, and while I still don't know what part of that is NWN and what part is the business venture - your post holds a lot of value to me in that it feels like an attempt in earnest to let us know the gig.
Remember at one time it was necessary to upgrade the machines. These servers are owned by Leanthar and colocated at our hosting providers. Albeit an asset, one with significant depreciation in the tech world. Upgrading those servers didn't come cheap. Having the hardware to handle things without consistent crashes or significant cpu and ram lag was an expensive investment at the time. I don't have an exact price on that but this was a hefty chunk of this $20,000 figure.
More to come.
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Alright. Let me first say thanks Chongo for recognizing a lot of what my post was. I don't think we've ever not disclosed things a bit more precisely because we didn't want to share it with those who have a personal investment in Layonara. It usually boiled down to not having the time or energy to focus a few hours to giving everyone the picture, not to mention exact figures variated with bandwidth usage. Also I think there might have been a little hesitation to divulge personal financial expenditures. I know when we ask for donations we open up to that but discussing dollar figures in a public forum can raise a bit of a privacy concern.
Let me continue to say I like your idea and while you thought we'd cringe at EULA, to me it's another issue. We've positioned NWN to be as separate from business ventures despite our recognition of it being somewhat important to the future. Essentially what has happened is OneST8 and I have been given permission by Leanthar to host his IP through the NWN game world. If you and a group are interested in helping with that in a dedicated way, I think it can be done. Essentially I'm going to equate it to Kevin and I hosting a party and you guys are bringing the beer and munchies.
So that's all cool. But then the guy who paid for pizza suddenly starts acting like a jerk and breaking the house rules, it's not as easy to boot him out of the house. Especially if half the party members thinks the dude was just having a little fun. We still need to administrate and organize things and that is all ultimately Leanthar's control and final say. The maintenance of a knit community comes with some tough decisions. And when dedicated financial support is made, the line sometimes gets stretched. I know you want this to be just an off the cuff sort of organized pooling with limited guarantees of expectations, but things can still get hairy.
The breakdown is fairly simple since we have a verbal agreement for unlimited bandwidth. Our hosting provider is a good friend. But sometimes verbal agreements change, so let's hope things work out there. See: Dan Scott v. GNI. The linux server hosting the player vault and the mysql DB is $110 a month. The windows server hosting the two modules is $145 a month. There ye have it, $255. Don't concern yourself with the forums or lore as those will continue to be an entity despite NWN. I'm also going to stretch it to say that it may in the end be possible to run absolutely everything on the one windows server, but I'm not certain. So if you want to aim for $145 to start, that may be a target.
Now the tricky part. Assurances of investment and planned timelines. You understand anything and everything can happen, so nothing is written in stone. In terms of where we're at with the MMO and timelines for that, I'm going to be as straight forward, although I know we continue to say it. I'm not toting a line here, this is the best I can tell you and we continue to do so, we're doing this in our spare time. Yes I understand we're planning returns for our future and we should be making those sacrifices but we just can't all commit the hours due to our real jobs and families.
There are times when we manage to complete 5% of our 100% completion in a month. There are times when we only get 5% done in 4 months. A lot of that can come in programmatic spikes too. We only have 3 dedicated programmers. OneST8, Dorganath and myself. If we're out of commission, progress stalls big time and this past eighteen months have delivered us significant life challenges for our time.
So yeah, we're not 95% of the way there, and things aren't going to be ready any moment. If I had to say at the least a certain amount of time, I'd say 6 months, at the very least, but it's tough, it really is to gauge progress when you can't allocate committed hours to development.
I can't guarantee you a scenario of NWN -> Handbook -> MMO because I can't guarantee the time its going to take to launch. If it is your contention that you wish NWN to continue indefinitely until that time based upon a continued supportive agreement, I can't come through and say 'Yep that's doable' because I don't know what is ahead for us.
If you're looking for a rolling commitment to the life of the NWN server, I can most likely continue to give you that assurance. If you want to know every month that yes NWN will be around for another 3 months, then I can do that but I'd still require caveats due to unforeseen circumstances.
So, now I've said all this, I have not talked with any of the other board members about this, so there may be issues I've forgotten or concerns they have. So let's continue to talk about this and see where we can all meet.
For now, I got some creature transparency logic to sort out. Seems the night for me has been focussed on transparency! ;)
Cheers,
orth
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Really appreciate this forum, people can surely think it through and make informed decisions.
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You can count on me donating every month :)
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I have been and will continue to do so.
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I think I can spare a small amount from each pay check. I'd rather keep Layo around a while longer then eat pizza anyway ;)
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Sooo.... fifty people at $5 a month should mostly off-set the cost of the NWN side of things? Do we have fifty regular players here? Maybe I should make a poll: If you play in Layo between six and twenty hours a week, check yes. Or something like that.... then we can decide if we have what it takes to buck up for the amount. I personally choose to give back via a time committment, as my finances are rather sorry right now, but even I might be able to sacrifice five bucks a month.
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Yeah Milty, I think you can go without a bottle or two of Soda :p
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Ill be on it once I can fix the problem with my checking account [Mostly due to my own laziness/business with other things.]
I've been wanting to buy a few things off amazon anyway, may as well do it through Layo. Does that still work/apply for a % of donation? I mean, if it does I may as well. I get the CD and book I want, you guys get what you need. Sounds reasonable to me >_> And publish that handbook so I can spend my money on you =P The days when I would've happily walked around wearing a shirt with Mist on the front have long gone :(.
>.> now if you make holy symbol jewlery , that'd be kind of awesome *goes off on tangent*
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Yeah Milty, I think you can go without a bottle or two of Soda :p
As someone paying off college loans while taking tens of thousands more on I can tell you that 5 dollars goes a long way when it comes to food.
Soda is for the rich ones.
Let's not forget about how Americans are going to be adopting a barter system in the next four years, as we dig through our back yards looking for shiny rocks to trade at the market for corn meal.
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Ouch... Poor people
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Sooo.... fifty people at $5 a month should mostly off-set the cost of the NWN side of things? Do we have fifty regular players here? Maybe I should make a poll: If you play in Layo between six and twenty hours a week, check yes. Or something like that.... then we can decide if we have what it takes to buck up for the amount. I personally choose to give back via a time committment, as my finances are rather sorry right now, but even I might be able to sacrifice five bucks a month.
Do it Milty it would be a good poll!
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heck, I say $10 a month... I can eat when I get home. If you think about it, $120 a year to pay for an on going hobby isn't that much. It's a lot better than spending 10 bucks to go see a movie once at the theater.
(lunch is god awfully expensive for some reason or another....)
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Actually, I'd say just start a thread, see how many people would come through on it, then we divide 255 by that.
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Isn't $10.00 the minimum amount selectable via PAYPAL?
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You can type in whatever you want, at least for single donations
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Isn't $10.00 the minimum amount selectable via PAYPAL?
For the monthly recurring one we have set one up for $10, but that's because L set it up like that, not because of paypal limitations.
You can donate any amount.