The Soul Mother - Still necessary?

[miltonyorkcastle]

I miss that guy.

[cbnicholson]

"We'll just put pretty little bushes next to these trees."    I miss that guy too. :mad: Stupid cancer!

[Hellblazer]

Aahh right, thanks cb.. now I remember who that guy was... yeah it was a shame.

[Guardian 452]

After declining to travel with someone tonight (the only other person on the server) because I feared getting killed and having another crappy "random" roll. I decided to do a forum search for the most current lengthy debate on Soul Strands (my search simply was Soul Strand)... after 7 pages of SS return grievance posts I found this thread from 2009-2010.

Is the SS system still working as intended on a server not near as populated as the days it was put in place?  I had this discussion with someone in tells... their question was... do you have a better idea of a fair system? And I told them no I did not... if I had they would have already been reading about it on the forums ... LOL.

I do understand the concept of the system... make people respect death. make them think before they act. Let me be clear too... I dont think we should just be able to "smack" anything and not fear loosing something. We cant go with XP loss on death that will punish the casual player and be a speed bump for the grinders. We had XP loss on death... it was removed.  So im still at a loss for a solution that works for both demographics but sadly I think that is impossible to find such a balance.

When the day comes that I loose a multiple year investment character... It will be the end of my time here sadly. I dont mean to use that as a threat.. its just how it will be.

When my choices are go try something risky or not play. Or do something that has little to no reward.  Hmm... doesnt seem like its best system to keep a place a float, or keep me interested in staying. Now granted... one player does not a server make. I could vanish tomorrow and this place would keep chugging right along with out skipping a beat. But is this place growing or dieing? if its dieing.. why?  Does it get addressed or just "fixed or addressed  in the MMO" Ive always envisioning the core of the MMO player base being those who hung on thru all the NWN years. But as the numbers here dwindle and the choices of alternate play grow (many of which are now free or free'sih) what will be the draw for Layo? the chance to perma death your characters?  i think not.

I wonder how many are gone because of the SS system taking away something they invested years of their lives into? impossible to tell, but I still wonder. How many have came here because of the SS system? again impossible to tell. But I would kind of wager more have left because of it... that have came (and stayed) because of it.


Ive come close to deleting this rambling babble im spewing several times now.. but instead im going to hit reply and just see what comes of it.

.

[Script Wrecked]

All the points that you make are totally valid.

A contrary point is, if no character ever dies, you get server stagnation due to a totempole effect. All the characters who got to the top first get entrenched and become part of an established (static) hierarchy. No character who comes along later can ever get to the top of the totempole because all the preceding characters attain a seniority due to having been on all the prior world shattering events.

Another contrary point is, that if you are afraid of losing your one established character, you aren't investing enough into your alternates. If you are always sidelining your alternate so that your main character can attend the big events, you are depriving your alternate the opportunity to grow (as your main did) and become as much entwined in the fabric of the server as your main has.

We do learn to love our characters, and the price we pay for love is grief, but don't be afraid of it.

[davidhoff]

I can't think of a better deterrent than death.  It's what makes the game more real to me and forces me to make hard decisions.  It's what makes me learn more about the mechanincs and learn more about what items are beneficial.  It gives the "Adventure" (notice I didn't use basher; I dislike that term) player credibility in a RP world.  It's what brings the more RP sided characters and the Adventure players together in a symbiotic relationship.  The RP'r needs the Adventurer to stay alive and accomplish goals, and the Adventurer needs the RP'r to make the game more fun and interesting.  Maybe they both learn from eachother and grow their characters into an Adventurer/RP'r combo.

It's too bad you (G-452) missed out on an opportunity to join with this other player and explore, but maybe that's the most realistic result?  Maybe your character made a wise in-game decision?  I think that's what we're shooting for is realistic/wise conduct, not some oh what the heck, lets just run in there and try because there aren't consequences.  It makes it difficult with less folks on because you want to get in game and go places, but maybe just pick a different place with less risk and that way you still get to spend time ingame with this player.

Other than that, maybe once a character perms, they turn into the undead.  They are hated by all the living and its pvp-on-site.  The living vs the undead! (although that might make them more powerful..yikes...maybe have to not give them all the undead benefits)

[jadewillow]

This is an old thread and obviously always relevant. Thanks for bringing it up again. I've dealt with this on a philosophical level by purely accepting the fact that without death, there is no life. They are different sides oof the same coin. If you try to create one without the other it is hollow and unfulfilling (i.e. WoW, Mist etc)

Do you want to be immortal? Think hard about your answer.

[Aphel]

[...]
Other than that, maybe once a character perms, they turn into the undead. [...]

[derail]Or maybe not into the undead, instead just the "undying". Now, combined with elves, the al'noth, and the Shining Hand I see something interesting there...
Now, where did I put my insane-ish elvish watchm- guard... [/derail]

I think the death system in Layo offers a great chance to players: Nothing is worse than a world being inconsistant about death. Good characters might get statues or stories about them after death, and death that comes closer because a character is down to her or his final strand surely makes for good motivation.

Characters are puppets on strings, meant to play a role in a story. There are so many stories out there, good and bad, happy and sad, tragic or comical but dramatic all of them (so I hope) - and eventually, a good story comes to an end, and so do characters. And good stories and a consistant world is what makes Layo strong and something different than "grind-and-loot-to-win" mmorpgs.

[Dremora]

I have seen full on undead systems implemented on other servers, however I believe the team on layo have already decided against implementing undead when the desire to create a lich PC as a part of a WLDQ or CDQ came up. It would require alot of scripting, the death system would no longer apply in the same way and basically, a lot of new rules, factors and stuff in general would go into it.

If you took it to apply to more than just the one person and not everyone would have someone raising them from the dead (could be done RPwise for an individual if DM oversees and its apart of a plot.. chances are your char will be an NPC though); it'd probably be considered and I'll say in advance I only skim read the comments on the oldest two pages so I am probably misinformed or misunderstanding some stuff.

On the subject of the Soul Mother, keep the miserable cow; infinite respawns are nice but.. there should be a system by which perma death can happen, against the player's will. I have played servers where everyone can just keep hitting respawn and the end result is silly. Oh my god brought me back to life, for the 80th time, oh I am favoured by this that and the other, oh a random cleric passed by my corpse and raised me yada yada yada. It gets ridicolous, and death gets taken less seriously which I believe was mentioned before.

True you can lose an SS through lameness, which is why GPs exist for every character, three chances whenever your not elligible to regain a lost SS from DM error, massive lag or whatever else might've caused you to die, lose your SS and through no fault of your own.

[Xaltotun]

Still and all, I must admit (since I have just lost a Strand) that the present system seems a little unfair. Let me paint the picture and some thoughts I have had to see what the group thinks.

I was in a party of three and got jumped by two nasty monsters and got killed i double quick time. I rolled under my SS roll %age and lost an SS.

My chagrin is not aimed at the way my SS was lost, but the fact that this is the FIRST SS he has lost and is at level 18. Why so few? Because he has only been killed a few times and this is what is annoying. When you get killed, no account is taken of how many times you have been killed, and this seems not to benefit the cautious character. So whether you have been killed a few times or 50 times, it is still the same level %age roll.

So I wondered if this might not be a way to balance out the careful, thoughtful character - the one who doesn't get killed a lot.

It would work like this:

• When a character has to roll vs the Soul Mother, they get a +40 to their roll, which is given at the start of the new character.
• Every time the character visits The Void, the 40 is reduced by 1.
• This new stat is stored on the character and not on the server to reduce lag.

So how would this work? Two illustrations to explain:

Level 5 character, soloing, gets killed by the Red Light Goblins. This is the first time they have been killed so the roll goes like this...

%age roll +40 vs %age SS loss 5% (for level) and so cannot lose an SS.

Level 30 character, soloing, gets killed by the Red Light Goblins. This is the 20th time they have been killed so the roll goes like this...

• %age roll +20 (40 - number of trips to the void which is 20) vs %age SS loss 30% (for level) and so needs to roll 10 or over to avoid an SS loss.

Now these numbers are conservative, I would suggest as some characters out there get killed a lot and some don't. One character I came across had died over 100 times and only lost 3 SS.

The advantage this process would offer is:

• It would encourage party play since if you are raised from death, you do not pay a visit to The Void.
• It would encourage more use of Rasie Dead scrolls etc. and make them worth crafting.
• It would encourage parties to take clerics with them.
• It would reduce the chances of a straight %age roll failure so make it fairer.
• It would not penalise the careful player.
• It would make no difference to the reckless player.
• It may actually reduce the amount of work needed by the time to sort out SP reimbursements for SS loss.
  

Thoughts?

[Dremora]

Without touching on the idea itself, I am just gunna point out that the benefit to a cautious character comes in staying alive, not in having less chance in attracting the gaze of grandmama death. If you are a reckless character at level 20, the number of times you roll will be greater than the number of Ss rolls a careful, cautious character will take. That in itself is the unwritten benefit which tbh applies to real life as well. You are statistically as likely to get hit by an asteroid as you are to be in a plane crash, the reason one is more likely is becaus eplanes take off many times per day, but asteroids are not knocked out of their orbit nearly as often. Thus our roll for getting turned to re pulp is taken more for planes than asteroids.

Like I said, just pointing out where the benefit is for the cautious character, not putting down your idea or any tweaks for the system.

[Guardian 452]

Im neglecting my alts? You're right I do neglect them, mostly due to they can't solo and when no one else is on they sit and collect dust. Rather than try to do something they prolly cant handle and suffer a "bad luck" roll. No thanks

Xaltotun has hit the sorest part of this issue for me right on the head. For me it isnt the system itself I dislike, its just the "bad luck" of it.

My newest character picked up his 1st SS at level 5! and a second SS at level 8! 6 Deaths.... 2 tokens! Chalk it up to bad luck of course. I should have said more clear in my last post. I wasnt afraid of going to "x" location and dieing.... I was afraid of after dieing getting yet another rotten roll. I've never liked the "random" number generator (d20) of NWN it jsut plain stinks. But its what we have I know.

I like your pitch Xaltotun but.... when no one else is playing (as happens far more often now) encouraging party play is then discouraging people to play when no one else is on. And forget about being selective for a cleric when your choices are no one and nobody.

I do think we need a system that works differently... it shouldnt just be a blind 1d100 across the board on every death. But any change will favor some classes and hurt others. Front liners will be hurt by a system that takes into account how many times you have already died. Because front liners are the 1st to die. The archers and casters in the back who have time to act when things go bad (time to act = run, use invis potions items etc) will always die less.. I know this from playing both sides of this coin here.

[Guardian 452]

It probably isnt possible but a system that takes into account how often you roll vs soul mother as in your last roll against the soul mother was 4 hours ago and thus you are at a higher risk to getting a SS vs another who last rolled against the soul mother was 44 hours ago. This IMO would keep people respecting death so they dont just try and die, try and die, try and die. But... if someone wants to risk it with increasing %'s against the Soul Mother... go for it!

This system would give me the person running the puppet a choice of taking this known added risk on or not.

Hey "Joe Adventurer".. want to go to the Rift for diamonds? Might be risky if those giants tear into you! Mmm I havnt had any run in's with the soul mother in a while so yeah Im game!.... or... Eh... I was just down in "x" and had a quick trip back to my bindstone just the other day.. so I better sit this one out.

With this system sure you can still have a Bad Luck SS... but those who "respect death" will have better odds of living longer. Instead of todays everyone has the same dumb luck. Carefull or careless it doesnt matter with a blind 1d100 How many here have been carefull and still are racking up the SS losses? Or even Permed but werent a fearless hard charger?

[davidhoff]

I think maybe Xalt has a workable new system in theory.  I don't think a level five should be able to run around willy nilly though.  Maybe a second roll could come into play to save the day?  If you haven't had five deaths since your last SS loss, then you get a reroll on the soul mother roll.  Kind of like slippery mind feat gets a reroll.  Once you get a fifth death after a SS loss you dont get the reroll.

[Dorganath]

I'm offering the next comments in the spirit of debate, so please take them as such.

A system that applies the same set of criteria to all characters is, in fact, inherently fair. It's more fair than one that gives preference to specific characters due to specific circumstances.  For the sake of argument, I am calling it "fair" in the sense that it is egalitarian and blind to circumstance. That does not necessarily equate it with being "just" or similar, less quantitative descriptors.  I shall explain...

Our current system is based on one primary parameter (level), and the aggregate results of the system are affected by one secondary parameter (number of deaths).  The very simple math here is that the more a character dies, the more rolls there will be against the Soul Mother. The more rolls there are against the Soul Mother, the more likely a character is, over his/her lifetime, to lose Strands.  That's the math of it, anyway.

This system already favors the cautious player.

A character that dies less loses fewer Soul Strands overall, on average...not necessarily on a per-death basis but definitely on a per-level basis.

Now, before anyone says it, I'll go ahead and say it myself.  The random nature of the die roll does seem to "clump" on some people more than others. Some characters seem to get lucky and roll well, while others seem to fall on the "unlucky" end of the spectrum.  It could be argued that this is unfair, but then we can also start a discussion on statistical distributions and random clustering and all sorts of other 300-level mathematical concepts. In the end, the system seems "unfair" on a microscopic level (i.e. for any given character compared to any other given character) but it's actually very fair on a macroscopic level (i.e. the average of all characters taken together).

I get it...truly. I seem to have fickle dice whether I'm doing tabletop or online gaming. Electronic dice seem to have the same twisted sense of humor as physical dice. However, NWN in specifics and gaming in general are often based on randomness. Therein lies the element of chance, and it's core to the mechanics of this sort of game.

Moving on...

The mechanics of the death system are meant to reflect the mechanics of the Soul Mother herself.  To put it simply, the Soul Mother doesn't care how cautious you are, so a system that takes the number of deaths into account doesn't fit well with lore.

There's also another issue.  "Cautiousness" is not the only way to die less often.  I can think of three right off the top of my head: superlative equipment and/or builds, fighting only against easier challenges and/or gaining the bulk of one's experience through quests. So in this way, the proposal would favor those who better know the system, have access to greater resources and so on. Different classes and builds, and their accompanying options for durability/survivability, are not evenly distributed, and yes, sometimes that can change based on level. In other words, it favors those who know how to play "the game", and more than simply knowing the game would benefit the character.  It gives a bonus to knowing the game over and above the normal advantages that such knowledge brings.  One could argue this is actually less fair because it effectively penalizes those with a lesser knowledge or ability. One could also argue it encourages the power-build as being more important than RP factors.

This is not to say the idea is "bad" or unworkable, but it needs to be looked at in a broader sense than what was proposed, because the game can't tell the difference between being cautious and just being lucky or being well-protected (or even cowardly).

That aside, there would be one further factor that would need to be considered...OK, actually two.  First, if we started this right now...today...there would immediately be a whole class of characters who would reap an immediate benefit.  This next statement is not meant as an accusation by any means, but the proposal was crafted around a character and those like her who have not died much, thus that character and those like it would stand to benefit the most and somewhat significantly. Again, one could argue that's unfair, particularly to those people who had no knowledge of such a system up to this point, and thus may have 10...20...40 or more deaths under their belt.  Had they known about it before that, perhaps it would be different...in other words, if this had been our system from the get-go, then at least everyone would know the situation.  That would not be the case if we switched to this right now as designed.

It's possible there are some options to mitigate this latter factor...meaning to start the +X bonus out even for everyone, regardless of the number of deaths up to this point and let everyone start out on a more even footing.

Anyway, that's all for conceptual debate. I have comments on specifics, which I'll do in the next post.

[Dorganath]

My chagrin is not aimed at the way my SS was lost, but the fact that this is the FIRST SS he has lost and is at level 18. Why so few? Because he has only been killed a few times and this is what is annoying. When you get killed, no account is taken of how many times you have been killed, and this seems not to benefit the cautious character. So whether you have been killed a few times or 50 times, it is still the same level %age roll.

The first one's always the hardest. *winks* But yes, that is correct, it's the same percentage roll no matter who the character is or what the character has (or hasn't) done.  It's blind.  It affects everyone equally.

It would work like this:

• When a character has to roll vs the Soul Mother, they get a +40 to their roll, which is given at the start of the new character.
• Every time the character visits The Void, the 40 is reduced by 1.
• This new stat is stored on the character and not on the server to reduce lag.

Since we're being conceptual, +40 is probably too much.  That said, it's what's known as a "tuning" parameter, so I won't dwell too much at this point.

(fwiw, where the stat is kept is fairly immaterial in this case.  Death isn't a frequent thing anyway, so any additional lag to storing this in the database is fairly minor, especially since other (more laggy) things are stored at death anyway)

I do have an issue with using the Death Void as the trigger point. The key thing is what's been said before in this debate (and similar ones): The Soul Mother pays attention when the character dies, not when it respawns. Again, there are lore reasons for this. Beyond that, visits to the Death Void have not yet been tracked in any accurate way, so this pretty much necessitates that everyone start with the maximum bonus regardless of level and regardless of however many times they may have died already.  Level 40 characters will get a huge boost to their durability vs. the Soul Mother that may never return to any sort of meaningful level.  Brand new characters will have the same benefit but they'll also be more likely to use it up. Seems kind of skewed to me.

That said, I'm interested to hear opinions on how to mitigate this disparity.

So how would this work? Two illustrations to explain:

Level 5 character, soloing, gets killed by the Red Light Goblins. This is the first time they have been killed so the roll goes like this...

• %age roll +40 vs %age SS loss 5% (for level) and so cannot lose an SS.

Level 30 character, soloing, gets killed by the Red Light Goblins. This is the 20th time they have been killed so the roll goes like this...

• %age roll +20 (40 - number of trips to the void which is 20) vs %age SS loss 30% (for level) and so needs to roll 10 or over to avoid an SS loss.

Effectively what you're doing here is extending the "free" period from three levels to something with the potential to be significantly more.

The advantage this process would offer is:

• It would encourage party play since if you are raised from death, you do not pay a visit to The Void.

Again, I have an issue with using the Void as a counter, but also it has long been lamented (even when server populations were higher) that not everyone can be lucky enough to travel with a cleric...or to put together a reasonably balanced party.

• It would encourage more use of Rasie Dead scrolls etc. and make them worth crafting.

Not going there. The death system and crafting are not interrelated. I don't think it's good practice to prop up crafting and profit by selling the avoidance of death.



That sounds like the plot to a movie, doesn't it? *rubs chin sinisterly*

• It would encourage parties to take clerics with them.

See comment above on clerics and parties.

• It would reduce the chances of a straight %age roll failure so make it fairer.

A weighted percentage, which is what you're ultimately proposing, is not any more "fair", though I suppose it depends on how you define "fair".  Is "fair" equal for all (i.e. fair treatment under the law) or is "fair" more like what is "right" or "just" or "rewarding good behavior". I suspect you mean the latter?

• It would not penalise the careful player.

It would benefit the careful player, the player who hides behind those of higher levels, the character with the highest AC and other protections (including HP), to a lesser degree the character with the highest rate of damage and the character who gains more XP though non-adventuring and the cowardly player. The "penalty" would come in not being one of these things.

• It would make no difference to the reckless player.

True, but again, that is not the only factor that keeps people from dying.

• It may actually reduce the amount of work needed by the time to sort out SP reimbursements for SS loss.

Not likely, especially when people claim the calculation is buggy and I have to track that data down.  Nice thought though.  To be honest, the workload there is not much overall. It only gets sticky when people claim the death and subsequent loss was due to a bug. Nice thought though.