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Author Topic: On difficulty, randomness and changes  (Read 1665 times)

Dorganath

On difficulty, randomness and changes
« on: December 08, 2012, 11:21:46 am »
All,

This post is born of a recent bug report thread which began to stray into a debate. The topics raised are something I seem to have to address on a regular basis, so here I go again.

For context, the debate that tried to start was over "random" spawns and apparently disproportionate, unexpected challenges.

There's really no such thing as a "random" spawn from a design  standpoint.  The closest thing we could have is where there are more  candidate creatures that could spawn than the maximum number of  creatures that could spawn (i.e. 10 choices but only 5 slots), but even  then the spawns follow a set of rules according to the parameters set in  the spawn trigger itself.  Those rules are set by NWN. We presently have no meaningful control over how they appear; we can only make suggestions.

Besides this fact, the world changes from time to time and there  won't always be warning or notice.  Deal with it.  The development and  GM teams will do their best to make sure that the new challenge is not  disproportionately overwhelming beyond the intended challenge, but we  are under no obligation to give anyone a detailed list of what changed.   We've never done that and we're not going to start now.  Unless an area  goes from relatively easy to ridiculously impossible, in which case we  probably would provide some sort of advisory, there may be no  warning when something changes, and there will almost never be any sort of detailed list of what changes.

Remember though, this is not a  casino; we don't have a vested interest in our players losing. People have mentioned how it's not "fair" when things change without telling people. It's  always assumed that the GMs/admins/developers here have it in for our players...that we're trying to kill them off or just make life difficult for them.  We are making things reasonably difficult for players, but only in the extent that we'd rather people not just walk right up to level 40 without breaking a sweat.  Otherwise, the notion that there's some plot to kill people's characters to the point of perming them is beyond ludicrous.

The intent for most things is that there is a reasonable chance of success provided that one falls within the intended level range of the challenge presented, and I would even suggest that PCs (as a group) have the advantage almost everywhere. Even when GMs make changes, this is the metric we recommend and strive to achieve.  Yes, mistakes are made, but they're exactly that: mistakes.  Despite how many times we try to communicate this to people, we still from time to time hear about "fairness" and things...or worse, it's the things we don't hear about from people making assumptions and gossiping. This is really unproductive and it doesn't help anyone.

As far as the bug report that started this, the poster did exactly the right thing.  He saw a possible issue or cause for concern and reported it.  Maybe it's as-intended, in which case, we'll say so.  Maybe it's not, in which case we'll review it and potentially make changes and other reasonable accommodations. Regardless, bringing it forward is the best way to find out the intent and get something adjusted.  

Hopefully, this puts some minds at rest and/or addresses some concerns that people began to voice in the bug report thread.  If not, there's space in this thread for questions.
 

Guardian 452

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2012, 01:37:27 pm »
One more aspect of spawns is the day / night triggers. Not many places use these. The abandonded castle between Vehl & Hempsted. In the day some mercs spawn outside... at night undead. These could be used as another way to add variety to spawns. A lot of work no doubt.
 

drakogear

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2012, 07:53:32 pm »
Quote from: Guardian 452
One more aspect of spawns is the day / night triggers. Not many places use these. The abandonded castle between Vehl & Hempsted. In the day some mercs spawn outside... at night undead. These could be used as another way to add variety to spawns. A lot of work no doubt.


Might be a bit off topic but kinda gotta ask... Undead at night and Mercs during the day? Question... what happens to the undead when it becomes day and what happens to the Mercs at night? Does the Mercs have a necromancer that raises undead to guard thee castle wile there gone raiding or something?
 

Dorganath

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 08:11:07 pm »
The time of day only affects what spawns when PCs trigger the encounter.
 

Guardian 452

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2012, 11:11:28 pm »
The idea was durring the day mercs were looking to do a bit of looting. At night the undead seem to roam more so the looters stay away at night.
 

drakogear

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 02:40:34 am »
Quote from: Guardian 452
The idea was durring the day mercs were looking to do a bit of looting. At night the undead seem to roam more so the looters stay away at night.


Guess that kinda answers my question.

Was just wondering for the sake of well... role play and world history/story/lore w/e

Note: this being player knowledge not character knowledge... characters will have to figure it out the hard way... if they ever figure it out at all.

*Passable thought from an Undead Slayer*Hm, those Mercs must be working for a necromancer.
 

davidhoff

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 12:12:06 pm »
I just wanted to say that I had made some statements before about changing a spawn without notice being unfair and I'd like to retract and strike those sentiments.  Dezza made a good point about GM impromtus, which I do very much like, and they are in-effect changes without notice.  I like the idea of randomness and change so much, I think any potential downsides are worth it.  

So, bring on the randomness and may we all huddle around city camp fires fearing the unknown beyond the castle gates  ;)
 

drakogear

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 02:45:17 pm »
Hm, you know... this talk of randomness... almost getting me thinking of... Rogue-like games where they have random spawns everywhere being anything from creatures to items and (in some rogue-likes) random events and quests.

Rogue-likes also tend to have randomly generated maps... of which I'm sure Layo can't really have... unless maybe there's some form of editor that GMs might have control of to alter an area that players are travailing through? Like say... a living forest that turns into a seemly endless changing maze?

As for random spawns... what about... random encounters? Say your traveling down a passage... one you've pretty much always went down but instead of a peaceful stroll you come across... a band of orc in the middle of the road... or maybe a recently attacked wagon/caravan?

I know these ideas may be hard to put in as they would likely require a lot of GM interaction but these are just my thoughts on what could make for some good randomness in the game.

Off topic: Hm, though now I do kinda wander one thing... which is better... Layos soul strands... or rogue-like permadeath? Hm, not much fear of death with the soul strand system... but then again been finding it easy to die in layo too...
 

MadHattan

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 03:19:52 pm »
GM Impromtus....   Love It!  I was in a group on the way out of Leringrad Underground we didn't expect anything out of the normal then.... WHAM.  Brewmaster hit us with an amazing imprompt quest with a deep unpredictable story line.  Awesome Brewmaster just awesome.  He ran that thing for at least 3 hours but I was so emersed I lost track.  When new players showed up on the server...wham they were part of the story too.  -Madd
 

drakogear

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 03:37:09 pm »
Quote from: MadHattan
GM Impromtus....   Love It!  I was in a group on the way out of Leringrad Underground we didn't expect anything out of the normal then.... WHAM.  Brewmaster hit us with an amazing imprompt quest with a deep unpredictable story line.  Awesome Brewmaster just awesome.  He ran that thing for at least 3 hours but I was so emersed I lost track.  When new players showed up on the server...wham they were part of the story too.  -Madd


Hm, may be overstating this but... do very much agree... in fact...  Screw the calender... just give random quests and stuff when ever possible. YAY! Randomness!!! :)

After all... would you rather know what your gonna do... or have some random event pop up and lead you onto a wild and unexpected adventure. ;)

Mmmm... can still remember that one random quest I got... think it was Brewmaster that poped it up too... Sigfried was just leaving Hempsted to go out and gather CNR when he came across a crying woman begging the gate guards to rescue her daughter from kobalts... Was completely unexpected O.o ... but a whole lot more fun then gathering CNR!!! :D
 

Rowana

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2012, 03:43:07 am »
Total. Thread. Hijack. ((Mae Culpa Dorganath))

I know, sometimes, maybe players don't realize how the statements about interrupting the regular, static nature of the server's spawn cycle, complaints about changing things without notice, and other similar comments add up to communicate what the community desires to the Teams here. It does say a wide number of things to the Team. One of those is, "Please don't hit me with an impromptu, or even alter the path before me to give me a little excitement." Secondly it says, "Roleplay isn't actually the prime reason we're here." (To this I can only say, "Eep, is this intentional?" )

We've had a few recent threads asking for us to shake things up a bit because ye old crawl was getting, well, old... but then were criticized for doing that in the following update. It's one of those things that causes GMs/Project Team members to burn out getting a mixed set of signals like that sort of a 'push me, pull you,' situation. Newness and world changes being represented don't come with a guide and/or walk through because people have usually wanted 1) new things to explore, 2) a world reflective of how things change and 3) tangible challenges with which to fuel further personal/character development.

Regarding impromptus, many GMs are pretty gun-shy about doing them, at all. *raises hand* I know players have posted that they like them but we've had the same players come to us with criticisms about changing things. So we start doing them again then pulled back when we're told to. Now we have some asking for them again and we do... and *gestures circularly*. The real collective (but not individual, each has their own reason) answer to why we stop is that logic defaults to "No means no," because... well because that's what makes the best sense; Despite what is professed elsewhere. This has been a long time cycle pre-dating most of the active players (and probably pre-dating my own presence here if I had to guess) here so don't take it as a criticism specific to anyone here. It's just a 'thing.' However, this 'thing' is a frustrating cycle for everyone. We can, as a community, break out of and perhaps reduce a pretty significant stress on all of us. That takes me to...

Quote from: davidhoff
I just wanted to say that I had made some  statements before about changing a spawn without notice being unfair and  I'd like to retract and strike those sentiments.  Dezza made a good  point about GM impromtus, which I do very much like, and they are  in-effect changes without notice.  I like the idea of randomness and  change so much, I think any potential downsides are worth it.  

So, bring on the randomness and may we all huddle around city camp fires fearing the unknown beyond the castle gates  ;)


....This particular comment. It's kind of rare to see anyone come forward with a self-reflection of this nature and say "Whoops! This is what I think I really meant." Before anyone thinks I'm saying, "Hey! Admit your faults before the interwebz!" let me be clear that it's the stuff around that I actually wanted to reward and the middle part is the least important part. The self evaluation of what 'your' presence looks like/says to others and the, 'hey, this is what I really meant' are just... well they're just beyond awesome. I don't know if people avoid posting the clarity parts because they don't want to 'take up space,' or if they think people don't want to hear what they have to say, or if they think something has been bye-gone already, if it falls into that mysterious bracket of, "Well the Team clearly wants it that way," or whatever... Let me assure you that we'd rather hear from you than not. (Which falls into the same category of: Post a bug report if you're not sure.) I think that one of the elusive paths to eliminating some of our blemishes that burn people out lay in those two key aspects of text-only communication.

In amongst the various themes we've been discussing lately regarding improvement, communication has come around to be the top one or two item we need to address. So let me be superfluous and wordy here to offer a visual response to say:

Thank you DavidHoff. Thank you for the clarity and thank you for the self-reflection. More please! ((Umm, the superfluous and wordy part was what came before this part. The thanking part wouldn't have made sense without it. Right?))

Also...

Yay randomness and change and updates! Live in fear of the bad guys! *feebly goes for the retracking... and runs off to hide again*

~row
 

Tanman

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2012, 06:08:19 am »
I don't mind doing them, but be prepared for the unexpected when things could go awry for your character development or some other adverse effect such as a soul strand loss.

This is all part of the game...and who knows? It can make a bit of extra spice to it.
 

Aphel

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2012, 02:27:58 pm »
Quote from: Rowana
Live in fear of the bad guys!

[OT]May the bad guys also live in fear of the good guys. Don't want them to get too cocky, either.[/OT]
 

Mooneyes

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2012, 03:43:47 pm »
Quote from: MadHattan
GM Impromtus....   Love It!  I was in a group on the way out of Leringrad Underground we didn't expect anything out of the normal then.... WHAM.  Brewmaster hit us with an amazing imprompt quest with a deep unpredictable story line.  Awesome Brewmaster just awesome.  He ran that thing for at least 3 hours but I was so emersed I lost track.  When new players showed up on the server...wham they were part of the story too.  -Madd


He did it on the fly too!! Lots of fun that one :) And you are right. Time just flew by.
 

Hellblazer

Re: On difficulty, randomness and changes
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2012, 06:20:01 pm »
Yep that was a blast!

 

anything