Dear Layonara Community,
Over the years, NWN-based Layonara has undergone several evolutions and benefited from various sorts of contributions from our community. Among these in particular are the financial considerations of hosting this game world and the way in which they have impacted the make-up of the game world. One rather profound transformation lies in the collection of servers we have running the world. When I started, we had seven physical servers: four running individual modules, one running the database, one running the forums and one spare that eventually became used as the quest server. At the time we also had a pretty sweet deal for hosting them at a pretty major data center. That situation changed, however, and hosting costs shot through the roof and to a point where it was unrealistic for us to continue on with that configuration, so we had to make changes. Fast-forward to today, we have only two servers: one running the actual game across two modules and one for the forums.
Over the years we have asked for and welcomed donations to help with the server costs. We cannot require people to pay to play here, as it would violate the terms of the EULA for NWN. We also cannot offer in-game incentives and other game-related monetizations for the same reasons. For the most part, this has been acceptable for us, because running Layonara on NWN has never been about making money.
We have, unfortunately, hit something of a crucial financial point that requires attention. The two servers we have cost us an average of $268 CAD each month (NOTE: this is about the same in USD given current exchange rates). To break that down a little, the game server costs about $118/month and the forums server costs about $150/month. This cost is presently split by three of us, and but there has been a change for one who can no longer continue to contribute his share as he has been. This was hinted about in a recent devlog (http://"http://layonara.com/devlog/project-news" target="_blank") entry. In essence, we are in a situation where we either need to start bringing in regular donations from the community to make up for our shortfall or make some hard choices about the fate of Layonara on NWN. So in this context, we essentially have one question for this community:
Do you want to see NWN Layonara continue?
Our web site will remain; that is a cost we can and will continue to shoulder. Layonara as a whole is not going anywhere, and in fact, we have more than a few plans being set into motion. Whether or not the NWN game server will continue, however, will depend on the community's interest and the community's ability to donate regularly and sufficiently to keep the servers running. To be clear, we are not asking for a lot from individuals. If each member of our active player base could chip in even $5 or $10 USD each month, it would make a significant difference and allow us to continue on with relative ease.
Starting very soon, we're going to start holding some regular donation drives, though we would also welcome anyone who wants to regularly donate to the server fund. Clearly, we would welcome and encourage both. Any overages would, of course, be applied to future fees.
Ideally, community contributions and donations would fully fund the NWN server (approx. $118/month). If we could even get $100/month from community donations, it would eliminate the short-fall that will occur. This sounds like a lot for a single person, but when divided several ways, it's really not that much.
To potentially help with your decision, before this financial news came to light, we have been working on several initiatives for the game world. The Fortune system (http://"http://layonara.com/threads/10162156-the-fortune-system" target="_blank") is the first of them, but also we have GMs planning some new efforts and collaborations. Leanthar and EdTheKet are working on putting together some new and (hopefully) exciting things. We have several things in motion right now, but if there is insufficient interest in the community for such things...or if there is just an insufficient ability or desire for you all as a group to contribute a small amount each month to keep the servers running...then there is little justification to continue on with NWN.
At the risk of sounding gloomy or dramatic, the sad truth is that the NWN server's fate will likely be decided by the end of the year if we do not gain enough in the way of donations before then. There's really no way to sugar-coat this, so I won't try. It's no longer a request; we cannot continue to support both servers without the assistance of the community.
So the choice is truly in your hands. We wish we didn't have to reduce this down to a matter of money, but unfortunately wishes won't keep the lights on, as the saying goes.
As this has all come to light somewhat recently, we do not yet have a resource set up to handle donations (please do not use the old links; these may be changing), but we anticipate having something very soon. We're just trying to figure out which of several possibilities will work out the best in terms of fees and overhead. For now, feel free to discuss and ask questions about this. We'll answer what we can.
-- Dorganath (on behalf of the entire Layonara team)
I be willing to throw $5-10 in the pot each month.
I can pledge at least $10 per month. I'd very much like to see the NWN server continue until there is another playing option available.
Mr. Mom is going back to the working world this up comming Monday. I'll help out if I can. And since we aren't sugar coating things ....
Steps should be taken to contact old players.
Let them know of Layos recent changes.... Changes to come. And the situation the nwn servers are in now. And I don't mean Facebook & twitter... Try to actually contact folks via email.
Find out why they left.
What would bring them back?
Consider addressing some of the reasons people left.
NWN Layo doesn't have a future with new people.... It's current & former player base is it's only hope to make it until Layos next platform.
I will put in $10/mo.
I agree with G-452, but want to add a point to his argument:
Consider addressing some of the reasons people left.
Or why they are leaving. It's not coming out of the blue, most of the time.
Dorg-How much of a financial commitment do you need by Years End? The entire $1416? Or enough to carry through a few months?
I will commit $10/month for sure, and hopefully some in donation drives.
I say have a few send off x2 xp weekends and shut it down. As someone who has been a long time donator, my opinion is that Layo is about done. Another round of donations is only going to delay the inevitable even if they amount to enough to keep it Layo running for the next few months. I don't believe anyone has a particular onus against the team or the state of things ig, I just think many of us, myself included, have outgrown the world and possibly the system it runs on. The changes like fortune have been nice, but from my perspective they haven't enticed me to play more nor do they seem to be having the desired effect on the vast majority of former/present players. My 2 true.
Dorg-How much of a financial commitment do you need by Years End? The entire $1416? Or enough to carry through a few months?
I will commit $10/month for sure, and hopefully some in donation drives.
We don't need to have the entire year's funds (or even a pledge for such) by the end of the year, though we will not complain at all if that works out. At a minimum, we need enough to get us through January. Having a few months worth of cushion would be nice. Consider this our first donation drive...in a long time, anyway. Expect more in the future, assuming we continue.
In truth, what we need to know soon is whether or not this community has both the interest and ability to play a significant role in the financial support of the NWN server. If the interest and support is there, we'll keep going. I know it's short-notice on this rather immediate need, but life is like that sometimes.
I can surely handle at least $5 a month.
Steps should be taken to contact old players.
Let them know of Layos recent changes.... Changes to come. And the situation the nwn servers are in now. And I don't mean Facebook & twitter... Try to actually contact folks via email.
Find out why they left.
What would bring them back?
Consider addressing some of the reasons people left.
These are good thoughts, and certainly something to consider as a longer-term effort, but the impact of such would likely take months to realize. The purpose of this thread is to address an immediate need and to determine what our current community is willing to do.
I know it's within the realm of possibility for our current community to float the shortfall, at least in the short term. Last month, we had 71 individual player accounts in-game at one point or the other. Even allowing for the fact that some of these are alternates for the same player, that still leaves around 60 people who could possibly contribute. If each of these contributed a modest amount on a monthly basis, both servers would be paid for with some small amount left-over. If even a fraction of those players gave a slightly larger amount each month, we could easily pay for the NWN server. This is the most immediate thing that needs to be determined and soon. If the servers are going to continue, then we can look at addressing the reasons for old players not playing here anymore.
----
This topic is probably one for a different thread, but I do happen to know that some of the reasons are things beyond our control. Some people have left due to interpersonal conflicts with and/or predatory actions by long-time and/or "influential" members of the community, finding this option easier than bringing forth these issues. Some have left due to changes in their personal situations. I know there are people who have left because they no longer have time or have had technical/financial issues that are not easily resolved.
I also know some people disagree with things we do here which are non-negotiable (such as our family-friendly requirements). I know some people have found greener pastures in other, glitzier games. I know some of the fault is on us for a reduced level of GM activity (which we have been addressing). I also know there are other reasons, so do not think I am deflecting this off and calling it "out of my hands".
I also know that when asked these sorts of questions, people aren't always as honest with the "powers that be" as they are with other players. The "real" reasons people leave are often not mentioned, even when we ask them directly. Beyond that, what "we" say to try to encourage them back doesn't usually have as much impact as the word of mouth from their fellow players.
So if you (any of you) know people who are not playing here any longer, consider reaching out to them.
----
NWN Layo doesn't have a future with new people.... It's current & former player base is it's only hope to make it until Layos next platform.
What Layonara needs for the long term, in general, is eyeballs and evangelists. A small, dedicated community can keep NWN going indefinitely, but the long-term success of the world depends on much more than the NWN player base.
I also think the onus for contacting former players should not be on the Team alone, but on all the players that had contact with them over the years. We, as players have a different perspective on how Layo has changed and should take it upon ourselves to capitalize on that.
Where is the donate button?
Where is the donate button?
I am sure a squad of specially trained squirrel-monkeys will be dispatched to deal with that issue shortly.
Rick and I would be happy to go back to donating $20/month, just need a way to do it.
Quote from: "Nyralotep"&cid="2752209"Where is the donate button?
I am sure a squad of specially trained squirrel-monkeys will be dispatched to deal with that issue shortly.
Correct!
And the trained squirrel-monkeys have produced:
http://layonara.com/donate
Thanks to everyone for their interest and comments so far.
Wow!
If you all haven't seen, we've already reached our goal for December, which is awesome! Thanks to all who have donated!
If you haven't yet donated but are still willing to do so, please donate. Overages will go toward the server fees for subsequent months.
*Tosses $50 in the hat*
Missing a lot of play/GM time due to my hectic work schedule recently, so I might as well put all that overtime to good use! Game On.
I have not been in on in a long time due to personal reasons but, I do not want to see NWN Layonara end. I have been on and off for almost 10 years (wow!) and it might be hard for me to find time to play but, the team and the community are always in my thoughts. I have just donated $20 to help keep NWN Layonara alive until we can see what the next generation has in store for us!
I will commit to at leat $5 a month going forward. The Team and Community are what keep me coming back for almost ten years and it's high time that I say thank you with more than words.
Miss all you guys and hope everyone is doing well! Can't wait to see what 2014 brings to Layonara!
Hopefully see you all in game,
Brandon
Again, wow!
Less than a week later and we have raised enough to fund the NWN server for two more months!
Our continued thanks to everyone who has donated so far.
Some coin from RC. Can make it a monthly thing, it's on par with Netflix or Hulu.
I also think the onus for contacting former players should not be on the Team alone, but on all the players that had contact with them over the years. We, as players have a different perspective on how Layo has changed and should take it upon ourselves to capitalize on that.
I totally agree and thank you for your input on this important subject. There is only so much the team can do, we are spread very thin. We really need the community to help spread the word (far and wide) about Layonara and reach out to players that have quit playing and see if they may come back. The more the community can help us on this front the better the player base will become. Spread the word, please.
run the servers on your own machines for <cost of electricity> and cut your server bill to almost nothing along with a 30M/4M cable modem connection, that's far more than is necessary for 40 players... 50 bucks a month + electricity.
layonara doesn't need the $$$ they ask for, they need to think outside the box.
run the servers on your own machines for <cost of electricity> and cut your server bill to almost nothing along with a 30M/4M cable modem connection, that's far more than is necessary for 40 players... 50 bucks a month + electricity.
layonara doesn't need the $$$ they ask for, they need to think outside the box.
Thank you for your input.
Your basic premise, that being that we have servers of our own suitable for this purpose, is somewhat flawed. That is to say, we don't own any suitable servers to do what you suggest. Though if we did own a suitable machine, we do have a line on a very affordable colocation deal which would be less than what we're paying now. But we don't at the moment. Beyond that, there are other considerations, so let's discuss the merits and pitfalls of your comments.
I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but our IRC server, which is hosted residentially in a situation such like the one you are suggesting, has been down since an ice storm struck the Toronto area on December 22nd, knocking out power and/or Internet service to many, many people and for an extended period of time. Sure, such disasters can strike data centers too, but it's far less likely when the data center has redundancies and infrastructure-grade connectivity. So, had we made a poor choice as to whose house should host this fictional server of ours, we'd be out of luck and at the mercy of utilities who historically put residential customers (particularly pertaining to Internet connectivity) on a lower-priority list than businesses.
I suppose I could go into the merits of residential-grade internet connectivity vs. what commercial ISPs and data centers use (hint: it's not coax/DSL/U-verse), but I suppose that's a hair that could be split many ways. Even "business-class" coax service from cable companies is visibly less reliable than the dedicated lines from a telco or fiber optic service that ISPs, datacenters and people who really, truly care about the integrity of their data connections. Along the same lines, I won't even go into the difference between commercial-grade routers and firewalls vs. the off-the-shelf units that are intended for residential use, such as in the scenario you suggest. I come into contact with both scenarios on a daily basis. I could go on...but I won't.
It's all a choice of stability and reliability vs. affordability. We're presently leaning toward the former.
Circling back to the original comment, Layonara is not some company with a facility somewhere. Everything is distributed. There is no "headquarters" as yet. Of the lead staff, no more than two people even live in the same time zone. Believe me, if we had any of these things (which would imply an actual source of revenue enough to support such a thing), we wouldn't be having this conversation.
And to needlessly repeat what has been stated previously, donated funds are going solely toward the fees associated with the NWN server and not toward any other projects in which we may be collectively involved. It does not line our pockets or benefit us in any way beyond keeping the NWN server running.
So, while you are entitled to your opinions as to how we "should" do things and what we may "need" or not, I also suggest you are entitled to not donate if you feel we are not deserving of your donations. We're not going to discriminate against who can and cannot play here based on donations. The fact that we've gone for quite a very long time (years even) without asking for a single donation should be proof enough of that.
Again, thank you for your input, and thank you for your interest.
you don't need a server in a data center to run this game, there are a ton of servers out there still running for free with many players playing on them and they are run from people's homes.. on PC computers... you don't need server hardware to run this stuff... a standard pentium 4, 2.4 ghz with hyperthreading will run a database capeable of supporting 64 players, a pentium D dual core processor with 2 gigs of ram will run the server several times over... the minimum requirements are simply a pentium 3 800 mhz system... that will support 4 players easily... you could run both things on your core i7 processor with the servers on one core each and the database on another without problems. You can get a "business" class DSL or Cable line installed at your home for 80 dollars a month, and i'm sure the speeds are better than 3M/3M now which was the old speed of your servers with dual burstable t1s. As for an IRC server, that's not even necessary... it's a bit overboard since you can start your own support channel for free on many of the IRC servers run around the globe, such as irc.freenode.net... you could easily set up and run a free channel there for Layonara.
I'm just offering suggestions, sometimes worth more than donations.
I think the primary point of Dorganath's post was that were we doing what you suggest, we would be subject to potential days long outages such as what happened with our IRC server. Maintaining the game servers where we do allows us to avoid going prolonged periods without service.
milty is correct.
I know well what it takes, as a minimum, to run the NWN game servers we have now, and believe me, it is not currently running on anything spectactular...a Pentium Core2 Duo, to be exact....and it's been running there perfectly well for years now, handling two instances of the NWN server and the database that's shared between them. This server is not, unfortunately "ours" but rather it is leased from the hosting company. Bandwidth of residential-grade services vs. "business-class" services of the same technology is secondary to the reliability and stability of either of those connections. I see it daily. Lost/dropped packets are mildly annoying (at worst) to someone sending an e-mail or browsing the web (if they're even noticed), but compound that for 5, 10, 20 players online, and it's a problem that shows up as lag.
As milty said, we have made the choice to have the server hosted for reasons I have already discussed and will not repeat. Knowing what it takes to run NWN on a computer and getting back to the fact that we don't just have spare hardware laying around, it's somewhat unfair of us (in our belief) to ask that of anyone, and it's unfair to our players to subject them to all the extra layers that would come with running Layonara off someone's desktop PC. We could do it that way, yes, but we have chosen to go for a more reliable, stable and consistent experience for everyone.
Oh also and for the sake of information, our IRC server (the hardware for which is being used for more than just IRC, by the way) is not just for "support" as you suggest. We, Layonara as a whole, use it for several other things, some available to the public (like an interactive social space, RP, etc.) and some not (GM and other team discussions and meetings). It is a convenience, but again, this service is being hosted in a way like you are suggesting and we have been down now for six days as I write this. It may not be "necessary", but it's also more than just a support channel, and I was using the associated outage to illustrate my point about the reliability of home-based hosting.
*tosses in another $50 towards the effort*
Game On!
By keeping NWN Layo on life support, are we diverting precious resources from the next gen?
I'll toss in a player opinion: No. We're donating to keep things going so we can continue to have fun given that the next gen has no set date for release, is my take on this. And keeping a core community for the next gen alive, since starting a new MMO in the current environment is quite a challenge. Having an established and loyal playerbase seems to me to be a good investment for any startup.
Sent $20.
Thanks Rollins. I agree about keeping the playerbase and hate the thought of losing NWN Layo. Just thinking of all the effort (Character Approvals, CDQs, player requests, and Dorg's countless hours) required to keep NWN alive. If taking those cycles and repurposing them to the next gen would accelerate it, it might influence people's decision to donate.
Just a thought along the lines of further reducing costs. Has anyone looked at hosting on Amazon (or other) cloud?
By keeping NWN Layo on life support, are we diverting precious resources from the next gen?
Excellent question!
For the most part, the answer is "no". I have pulled back significantly from the things I have done over the years. Development-wise, I am personally very much in maintenance mode, which is to say I am not, myself, scouring the modules, looking for things to tweak, drumming up new places, new systems and so forth. I still have a small Project Team who are primarily tasked with area building/adjustment and who are working of a few changes. When they're ready, I'll put them together into a module update and update the servers. Similarly, if anything pops up that needs fixing or adjusting, I'll do that as well. However, I am not presently spending a significant amount of time on developing for NWN. The last big chunk of time I set aside for this was over the summer when the site was down, which is when I developed Fortune.
It's not that I don't still enjoy developing for NWN. Despite its warts, I really have enjoyed working on the platform, and of course the developer in me can always see things that could be adjusted or added. I could keep Layonara "fresh" and "new" despite it running on the aging NWN platform. But as you are suggesting, the considerations for the next generation have to be taken into account.
Administratively, I am personally sharing these sorts of tasks with Rowana, who is also involved with creating the next generation. Sharing the load helps us both, and our goal is to remain somewhat more managerial without micro-managing. An old boss of mine had a saying: Hire good people and get out of their way.
In some ways, having a smaller active community is a blessing in both regards, though I certainly would enjoy seeing the Server Status page more "alive". Nostalgia also plays a part into whether or not to keep NWN going, but as has been suggested, having an active community, even a small one like this one, as a base for the Layonara brand can only be a benefit. Keeping NWN going gives us that basis. Your presence and continued interest shows us we have something interesting. As time marches forward, we'll be taking steps to broaden that basis, though not necessarily increasing the NWN community. As small as we are (even in our prime), every little bit helps.
So coming back to the original question, keeping NWN alive clearly diverts some resources, but presently they are worth the diversion. The benefits outweigh the costs. I have said for quite a while that if this remains true, NWN will continue. If we had to shut down NWN for financial considerations, it would be a loss all around...one of those hard choices that would hurt in more than just the nostalgic sense.
Thanks for asking!
Just a thought along the lines of further reducing costs. Has anyone looked at hosting on Amazon (or other) cloud?
Another good question!
We investigated cloud hosting options (though I don't think we looked at Amazon...I'd have to check with orth on that one) when the site/forums went down in July. The demands of the web site, primarily the memory and CPU needs, made cloud-based hosting actually less economical than a dedicated server (though the deal that IceDragonDuvessa helped us get really tipped it in). Because of how cloud pricing works, it sometimes does not help us when there is an application such as NWN, which is hungry for memory and CPU time and which is "always on".
So yes, it's been a consideration and for the moment, we're going to stick with the dedicated server. This may change as cloud computing continues to change (and prices along with it), but for now, there seems to be little to no benefit, financial or otherwise, to switch from a dedicated to a cloud server for hosting NWN.
That said, cloud hosing is possibly something we may look at for the next generation.
Quote from: "gilshem ironstone"&cid="2752208"I also think the onus for contacting former players should not be on the Team alone, but on all the players that had contact with them over the years. We, as players have a different perspective on how Layo has changed and should take it upon ourselves to capitalize on that.
I totally agree and thank you for your input on this important subject. There is only so much the team can do, we are spread very thin. We really need the community to help spread the word (far and wide) about Layonara and reach out to players that have quit playing and see if they may come back. The more the community can help us on this front the better the player base will become. Spread the word, please.
i felt this was more of a GM team issue because I assumed they had easier access to the (former) players email addresses. And making up some sort of email letting them know some highlights of what has changed over the years might pull a some of them back for a while... Maybe even hold their interest until this next version becomes playable.
Well, nearly a month has gone bye since my initial post, and I have to say, I am extremely pleased with the way people have shown their support. I had hoped we'd get enough to get us through January. As it stands right now, we have enough donations to pay for just over five months worth of server fees ($623.14 as of the time of this writing).
Well done and thanks to all who have contributed!
I especially want to extend our gratitude to the person who single-handedly contributed about 2.5 months worth of server fees in a single donation! Truly, the response and support shown in the last several weeks has shattered our anticipations.
Ten ducks for January.
Quack.