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Author Topic: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet  (Read 1572 times)

Gulnyr

Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« on: April 13, 2010, 06:30:48 pm »
The hierarchy in the Rofirein section of LORE is confusing and unclear.  As a hierarchy, the vertical position of each rank is descriptive of that rank's "power" and position in the chain of command.  If that is considered while examining the hierarchy, one finds that Protectors (the "standard" position of a priest of Rofirein) are on par with Unit Captains (an elevated rank within the Knights of the Wyrm, with plain ol' Knight being the "standard" rank).  That's weird.

Here's the argument I made a little while back:

Quote from: Me Somewhere Else
My understanding of the branches of the Church is that they are similar to the branches in a nation's military. Under normal circumstances, an US Army captain and a US Navy captain most likely aren't going to be dealing with each other. But sometimes they could find themselves together, in which case the Navy captain outranks the Army captain because a Navy captain is equivalent to an Army colonel.

So, in an orderly church such as that of Rofirein, a similar situation seems logical. The branches are separate to conduct their own business for the most part, but in a mixed group it would be clear who outranks whom so that order can be maintained. Thus, Jennara does technically outrank a lot of PC and NPC Clerics, though she would be out of line to order Protectors around within a Temple, say, as they are not directly within her chain of command.


An all-in-one chart for THE Church of Order should reflect that orderly concept and display each rank in its appropriate vertical position relative to the other ranks within the Church.  In other words, some space should be added or removed here and there so each branch of the Church can be compared to the others.  That will allow each player of a Rofireinite character to know where his character belongs, and help DMs know how to interact when using certain NPCs.  If there's any need for help determining which rank is where, I'd be glad to offer ideas.
 
The following users thanked this post: EdTheKet, Acacea, ShiffDrgnhrt, Alatriel

Hellblazer

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 06:39:06 pm »
might be taken out of context not sure, but I wonder how a non divine touch could outrank those that are touched directly by the divine as to have the power given to them by the deity? We are talking of the church of Rofirein after all, (possibly the others too). It seems logical to assume that even though the clerics might be apart from the military, they are still those closer to the gods themselves, so they would either hold an equal position, or even higher position as the God emissaries to the living and keepers of the faiths.

Gulnyr

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 07:24:46 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
I wonder how a non divine touch could outrank those that are touched directly by the divine as to have the power given to them by the deity?

Because that is what rank means.  People who are not blessed with the ability to cast spells may be blessed in other ways.

Also, there is no "military" in the Church.  The Knights of the Wyrm are described as more militant, but that only makes sense for the group whose members are most likely to be going out and mixing it up.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 08:00:56 pm »
Quote from: Gulnyr
Also, there is no "military" in the Church.  The Knights of the Wyrm are described as more militant, but that only makes sense for the group whose members are most likely to be going out and mixing it up.

Well in that case it falls back to what I was saying. How can a non  divined touch lead the people in the church? There for, how could a non  divine touch be placed at a higher rank in a church structure, than a  divine touched who was blessed by the gods? The higher the rank the more people under that person. Stretching out a bit here, and sorry to bring RL dogma into it. But it would be like saying that an atheist would be chosen to operate a Christian church. They might be of the same faith in this case, but one is touched by the gods (has shown an extreme devotion to be granted those powers), the other is not. Ranks or not, the touched one would be held in higher grounding within the people of the church and the believers outside of the church, and maybe that is why the standard rank of a priest is higher.

Priest are the ones that deciphers the will of the gods, their voice on the lands to the people who are not divinely touched. They bolster the powers of the gods to Raise the deads that are willing to be raised, and they are the keepers of the faith. In other words they are the authority in a church. It's only normal that because of that notion, they are held to a higher standing than a simple man(or woman).

Now on the other hand, every one knows that the navy promotes faster;)

ycleption

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 08:05:57 pm »
Are you saying that if I created a level one cleric, I should be able to give orders to someone like Jennara, solely because I can cast divine spells?

I think you are placing too much emphasis on mechanics here. A devout Rofienite fighter may believe that his strength is given to be able to mete out Rofirein's justice, that he has been touched by the divine and given martial prowess - and who's to say that he's wrong?
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 08:14:31 pm »
This is definitely an Ed-review, as I copied the chart from pre-created material, but my understanding is that the Clergy (in this case, Protectors) always outranks the non-clergy, as the sects/non-clergy organizations are usually designed to service the clergy, trusting the clergy's direct line to their deity. So a Protector could in fact give an order to a Divisional Knight Commander. A wise Protector might instead request the Commander's judgment in the matter, but my understanding is that the Commander is going to ask what the Protector needs and wants done, as his job is to be of service to the church and therefore the deity.

Of course, Ed may correct me. And either way I'm happy to adjust the chart if such is needed. And no, the ranks of the guardians and knights do not and are not intended to line up with the ranks of the Clergy- They were put like that because both the guardians and the knights do answer directly to the High Warden, but the church does not necessarily dictate how their organization is run. That is managed internally, especially in the case of the knights.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 08:16:29 pm »
Quote from: ycleption
Are you saying that if I created a level one  cleric, I should be able to give orders to someone like Jennara, solely  because I can cast divine spells?


Yes, if it was told to him to do so, the clerics could give the order to Jennara. She then has the choice to go with it or not, or even to confer with an older cleric in the church. That's what a chain of command is. Even though Jennara has made some accomplishment, within the church, she is not a touched one. It's unfair but that's that. You also have the same things that happens in the example that Jennara brought. Two different branch of the army of supposedly the same ranks but one is considered higher than the other. Which would also mean theoretically that the others ranks are also higher.

Now in her example she said that a Navy captain is equivalent to an Army colonel. This theoretically means that a navy lieutenant is roughly the rank of an army captain. Doesn't really makes sense does it? but heck that's how it is.

So yes, I say that the cleric who just started in the church would outrank a non cleric. Who knows first of all where that cleric have been, if he had prior experience. It may have been a judge before he found a deeper devotion and was bestowed his powers by the gods. But in a church matter, the clerics would definitely be higher than the non clerics. Or by your own statement of mechanics. he might have been a level 1 cleric for the past twenty years, before he started to venture out mechanically speaking and gaining levels.

Quote from: ycleption
I think you are placing too much emphasis on  mechanics here. A devout Rofienite fighter may believe that his strength  is given to be able to mete out Rofirein's justice, that he has been  touched by the divine and given martial prowess - and who's to say that  he's wrong?

The god themselves. The cleric doesn't chose to just cast powers. One could call himself a cleric because he throws a potion on someone and say look my powers have healed him. But it's the god who gives the powers to the man or woman who then becomes clerics. Like the same gods gives the paladin their martial prowess that shadows the ones of a simple fighter. It's only mechanics if you look it at the frigid manner that spells are perceived. But there is a lot more to the reason behind why clerics have those, and why others don't.

In the same way in RP, a cleric/paladin who defies the teachings, rejects them, or denies the reason why the powers was bestowed to him, wither it be by actions, associations, and what not. Will fall out of grace of the deity and have his power removes. A sole man/woman wouldn't be able to do so, only the divine could.

ps I'd just like to say that this is no way an attack on Gulnyr/Jennara character. In fact you could easily read it as joe slacker being talked about here. I was not the one to bring in Jennara. But it has to do with how I understand things and since I have no cleric even less a rofireinite, I have then no stake wither or not it's clarified in favor of or against what was brought.

Acacea

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 09:41:58 pm »
I think we should stop at the apologizing for comparing to real life dogma and just not even continue from there. It really doesn't make any sense at all in most cases, and this case - comparing Rofireinites who themselves may be divine warriors, judges, soldiers, or whatever, to atheists in a christian church - was not an exception to that trend.
 

Gulnyr

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 09:47:58 pm »
Hellblazer, you are assuming the ranks come from Rofirein.  That is wrong.  They come from the Church, a mortal organization.  If the Church says Farah Fighter outranks Conrad Cleric, then Farah Fighter outranks Conrad Cleric.  If Rofirein has a problem with that, he'll let someone know.

Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
my understanding is that the Commander is going to ask what the Protector needs and wants done, as his job is to be of service to the church and therefore the deity.
They aren't mercs.  The Knights and Guardians are not just in service to the Church but are part of the Church, just like Protectors.  And consider that it has been said elsewhere years before of any religion that the Clerics hanging around the temples aren't necessarily able to raise the dead or cast all the spells a PC Cleric of the faith can.  That doesn't mean they aren't high placed in their churches with whatever rank system they use.  Outdoing an NPC is a whiz-bang contest doesn't mean your faith is higher or your deity cares more about you than that NPC.  It only means there may be different types of blessings at work.

Quote
And no, the ranks of the guardians and knights do not and are not intended to line up with the ranks of the Clergy- They were put like that because both the guardians and the knights do answer directly to the High Warden, but the church does not necessarily dictate how their organization is run. That is managed internally, especially in the case of the knights.

Exactly the point.  Each branch has internal organization and generally doesn't interfere with the others, but in mixed groups it should be clear who is in charge.  It's the Church of Order, y'know?  And there should be some sense to it.  Rank isn't just about who bosses who around but about taking responsibility for everyone below.  People should have rank over others because they've shown they can handle that responsibility in all its aspects.  Newly ordained Protectors haven't, so officers from other branches should outrank them officially, even if that never comes up between any given pair.  Protector is a very broad rank, probably, covering people who are still wet behind the ears all the way through grizzled old Wyatt Earps, so it wouldn't hurt to have some sort of graduated scale, even if they are all just called "Protector" in practice.  That last bit's a semi-suggestion for more order that I can take elsewhere.

And if the silliness wins out and the ranks of one branch are not comparable to another in any way, with juvenile Protectors outranking the Wyrm Commander and Guardian Commander or whatever, can the chart at least be split into three to eliminate the chances of misunderstanding?
 

Hellblazer

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 10:31:07 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
So yes, I say that the cleric who just started in the church would outrank a non cleric. Who knows first of all where that cleric have been, if he had prior experience. It may have been a judge before he found a deeper devotion and was bestowed his powers by the gods. But in a church matter, the clerics would definitely be higher than the non clerics. Or by your own statement of mechanics. he might have been a level 1 cleric for the past twenty years, before he started to venture out mechanically speaking and gaining levels.

Exactly what I was saying

Quote from: Gulnyr
 And consider that it has been said elsewhere  years before of any religion that the Clerics hanging around the temples  aren't necessarily able to raise the dead or cast all the spells a PC  Cleric of the faith can.  That doesn't mean they aren't high placed in  their churches with whatever rank system they use.

---

Quote from: Acacea
I think we should stop at the apologizing for  comparing to real life dogma and just not even continue from there. It  really doesn't make any sense at all in most cases, and this case -  comparing Rofireinites who themselves may be divine warriors, judges,  soldiers, or whatever, to atheists in a christian church - was not an  exception to that trend.

It was a metaphor to say that you wouldn't see a none ordained lead the church or the believers. And since those are part of the church it was slightly relevant.

cbnicholson

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 10:49:31 pm »
I'll weigh in here, Under no circumstances would Daniel try to give Jennara an order, whether he is clergy or not has no bearing, it is a matter of respect to her station and experience within the Church.  Now if Daniel felt the order that broke Divine Law, there would be a serious issue, but that would be an unheard of situation.:D

The three charts are fine, its simply a matter of hierarchy within the branches and I believe it falls within subject matter in regards to where any action would originate.  If there was an issue with cross authority, the person with the problem would push the issue up their respective chain of command and it would come back down again in another branch, much like different branches of service in rl go all the way up to a commander in chief.
"Give a man a mask and he will show you his true face." 

Oscar Wilde
 

Gulnyr

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 11:29:18 pm »
Let me specify the "special situations" part a little bit.  

As an extreme example, imagine that some US admiral, flown in from some ship just for the heck of it, showed up at the motor pool one day while I was on duty in the army in Korea.  While everyone I ever personally met (including a colonel) would respect the admiral's rank and salute him and all that, he'd have no business telling any of us what to do, not even the lowest privates.  Similarly, under most circumstances, Jennara has no business giving orders to anyone who's not a Knight (and not even all of them).

On the other hand, if there were some special consideration, like the admiral and an air force captain and some army privates (yeah, weirdly specific combo) were in a POW camp, the admiral would be in charge.  He outranks everyone else even though he'd have no business ordering the rest of them around if they weren't in that circumstance.  Similarly, for a church who takes order as a religious mandate, it should be clear to each of them who outranks whom within, say, an adventuring party, where members of the separate branches of the Church could potentially find themselves together.  There is not always going to be an opportunity to write a proper request and send it off to the boss, y'know?

Separate in general?  Yes.  So separate there are no rules about how to relate when together?  Don't be silly.

That is all.
 

Acacea

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 11:36:10 pm »
I think that while it is potentially applicable to say it can be worked with and muddled through, it is also relevant to note the lack of real underscoring of order within its own church. For other faiths it is easier to accept answers of, eh, they'll take it up with someone else if there is a contradiction. For a church which has been knocked down a few pegs from the spirit of justice to straight up Law and Order (period) though, it seems more likely that such things would be already defined and have clear lines.

Everyone always knows who is next in the chain of command, and at what point they are outranked on the field. It's a very important piece of information that everyone from the highest priest to the lowest knight should and, seemingly, would know.

Acacea does not have any rank at all within the Lucindite church, even though there are non-clerics in its make-up. None at all - neither low nor high, nor any title given by anyone by herself to designate her function and appropriate place within a perceived hierarchy... unless you count "laughter of the lady" as a function title given by one of Her servants, in which case it doesn't say a whole lot about when to listen and when not, right?

But it doesn't matter. She's CG, has her own roles she fulfills to the best of her changing abilities, and with others has inarguable proof of Lucinda's love and gratitude. No frail wizard is going to die in his study because he was confused on who outranked whom. People will listen to her if she feels like talking and they feel like listening, and that's where it ends.

The only point of that was that Lucinda is not Rofirein. It is easier to say other faiths can just work out who stands where on the fly or take it up with someone if it comes up and wait however long that takes. For Rofi, though... seems like it would be carefully prepared ahead of time and to the letter, so that the transitions are always anticipated and automatic without any room for disorder.

I'm not saying there is time in the world to define every situation possible OOC... just that IC, I would think if someone can dream it up, a Rofireinite has regulated it, heh.

(Edit - slow poster...)
 

Acacea

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 11:44:24 pm »
Quote
the admiral and an air force captain and some army privates


...walk into a bar...
 

Gulnyr

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 01:30:48 am »
Quote from: Acacea
I'm not saying there is time in the world to define every situation possible OOC... just that IC, I would think if someone can dream it up, a Rofireinite has regulated it, heh.

YES!  Very much that!

I don't want anyone thinking I'm asking for anything outrageous like some forty page document declaring whether the Wyrm Commander or the Guardian Commander is in command under what circumstances and who should be the first, then, to declare his offering on a given holiday, which arrangement of silverware that requires, etc etc.  People have mistakenly thought I want every single thing spelled out before, so I'm just saying 'no' to that, explicitly.

I'm just asking for clarity (okay, and sense) of the ranks.  I will prepare it myself and explain every decision if you like.
 

EdTheKet

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 02:57:34 am »
Quote from: Gulnyr
In other words, some space should be added or removed here and there so  each branch of the Church can be compared to the others.
Agreed.
To give two examples:
Knight equals Protector equals Guardian in terms of power rank.

Wyrm Commander and Guardian Commander equal each other in terms of rank, and High Justicars are slightly lower than these two but higher than the Wyrm Commander Chief Advisor.
Why? If you read down, you'll see the High Justicars are responsible for areas, whereas the Wyrm and Guardian Commanders are "global".
Of course that doesn't mean the Wyrm/Guardian Commander can order a High Justicar how to adjudicate, interpret the law and dispense justice, that's none of their business in the normal day-to-day operations.


I'll have a look at the hierarchy table later and see what needs changing.

And to manage everyone's expectations this well-worded sentence by Gulnyr:
Quote from: Gulnyr
ome forty page document declaring whether the Wyrm Commander or the  Guardian Commander is in command under what circumstances and who should  be the first, then, to declare his offering on a given holiday, which  arrangement of silverware that requires, etc etc.  
Is not going to be produced ;)

For any other comparisons, you'll all have to wait for the chart to be updated.
 

Dezza

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 04:40:39 am »
Technically only the High Justiciers or Senior Lorekeepers and above could give Jennara a command and even then they would only do so if absolutely necessary..otherwise they would ask the Divisional Commander overseeing Jennara to convey the commands.

Guardians of Justice are the day to day Temple guards and as such while they hold respect on par with some of the senior clergy in essence the Guardian Commander could not order anyone around but his own men. Mind you if the Guardian Commander asked a young Protector to move aside or to do something it would be comsidered extremely bad form and rude for them not to do so....they are after all a highly ranked and respected member of the Faith.
 

Gulnyr

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 11:49:05 am »
I thought of something as I was going to sleep last night that might help explain why equating rank to "divine favor" wouldn't work.  

In the Rofireinite Church, a lot of Knights and Guardians come from the Protectors.  Protector is the proper title for a typical Cleric, but it's probably a broad group of people.  Any one of them may be focused on one aspect of Church duty, or he may be young(ish) and specialize later.  That specialization may be as a Knight or Guardian.

If a spell-flinging Protector (Cleric) becomes a Knight, and the Knights are all considered below the rank of Protector, then a "divinely touched" person has just lost rank and position by becoming a Knight.  And if you try to fix that by saying the "divinely touched" are automatically higher ranked than others, then suddenly Squires and Knights are outranking some (not all) Captains and Commanders, making the rank a useless word and causing confusion.  Rofireinites wouldn't do that.

Besides all that:
Quote from: LORE
Many laypeople are also rewarded with the title of protector.
You can't say who does and doesn't have "divine favor" by the ranks.  The ranks are a mortal construct to help maintain order and not indicative of Rofirein's opinion.

I hope that helps explain why rank has nothing to do with who can cast what or divine favor in general.  At least for Rofireinites.
 

EdTheKet

Re: Clarity of Rofireinite Ranks - ATTN: EdTheKet
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2011, 06:22:14 am »
At long last LORE: Rofirein: Hierarchy hope this clarifies things, if not, I'm sure you'll tell me ;)
 

 

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