Aa's Arrows of death

[willhoff]

INT has an effect on the spells/day of a Wizard, but unless I'm missing an exception or two, it doesn't add any power to casting, DCs or the like of any Wizard's spells.

I believe a wizards DC's are increased as his/her intelligence increases. :p

[Dorganath]

I believe a wizards DC's are increased as his/her intelligence increases. :p

Oh well see, there you go. Serves me right for never playing a Wizard in 3rd Edition.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I'd feel it was extreme if it could be attempted on more than one creature per rest. But since it can't, that one shot better as Pits be worth it. So yeah, I think the DC should be high. But maybe as a compromise, instead of 20+(1 per level), you could go with 20+(1 per 2 levels)+Int mod (or other appropriate class-secondary stat). This would place the starting DC anywhere from 25 (no int mod) to over 30 depending on the build, but of course, focusing in Int means less Dex or less Wis or less Cha, depending on how you build the AA. In this way the Arrow of Death is balanced in much the same way the monk QP is balanced via stats. And if you suggest this gives an edge to wizard/AA's, I'll refute that by saying the trade-off of playing a wizard/AA is that you have less AB than a bard (a lot less thanks to bardsong), and a lot fewer spells than a sorcerer. And even for a wizard/AA, Intelligence is a secondary stat to Dex.

[Dorganath]

I'd feel it was extreme if it could be attempted on more than one creature per rest. But since it can't, that one shot better as Pits be worth it. So yeah, I think the DC should be high. But maybe as a compromise, instead of 20+(1 per level), you could go with 20+(1 per 2 levels)+Int mod (or other appropriate class-secondary stat). This would place the starting DC anywhere from 25 (no int mod) to over 30 depending on the build, but of course, focusing in Int means less Dex or less Wis or less Cha, depending on how you build the AA. In this way the Arrow of Death is balanced in much the same way the monk QP is balanced via stats. And if you suggest this gives an edge to wizard/AA's, I'll refute that by saying the trade-off of playing a wizard/AA is that you have less AB than a bard (a lot less thanks to bardsong), and a lot fewer spells than a sorcerer. And even for a wizard/AA, Intelligence is a secondary stat to Dex.

Your "compromise" results in even greater DC's.

20 + 1/2 AA levels + INT mod...think about it a second.  That's 25 base before any INT mod, and it wouldn't be unusual to have more than a +5 INT mod at that point, especially with stat jewelry.

Besides that, Arrow of Death and Quivering Palm is an apples-to-oranges comparison.  The similarity ends at once-per-day Fortitude save vs. Instant Death.

As has been noted, QP only works on opponents with fewer hit dice and there are some creatures with complete immunity to it, whereas AoD can be used against any opponent. Monks also have many abilities that are modified by stats, whereas the AA class has only one, which is Imbue Arrow and then only for a Reflex save vs. the explosive effect. When a monk first gets QP, it's at 15th level, and an average DC (of just over 20, depending on WIS. That's a far cry from the average DC of 30 for the entry level ability with a rather steep rate of scaling from there.  

Even if we take a 20th level monk, whose QP DC would be 20+WIS mod, the average foe in the "eastern" parts of the server, as was referenced in the original post, is going to be over and above 20th level for the most part, making the ability useless in many situations for that level of character.

Contrast that with a level 20 (total character levels) AA with a DC of 30 for a one-shot-one-kill ability that can be used at range with relative safety against any target.  

Lastly, a monk's abilities can be balanced against a stat because Monk is its own base class.  AA's however, being a PrC with more flexible prerequisites, are not so limited.  There are many different ways to make one and three quite different arcane spellcasting classes on which to base one.  Picking a stat to use for scaling such an ability makes less and less sense in that respect.

Hear what I'm saying.  I'm not opposed to growth in the AA's DC for Arrow of Death, but I am opposed to such a major increase at the entry level that increasingly turns into an "I win" button, regardless of how many times/day it can be used.




Regarding builds... Let me just say that about 65% of all AA's we've had have been Wizards, with the other 35% being Sorcerers and Bards, in that order of frequency, so I don't think Wizards are really underprivileged or underpowered in the scheme of all things AA.  Also, most of our AAs have a combat class of Ranger as well, second to Fighter and then no combat class.  Those using Bard as their base class are even less than those who have opted only for the strict Wizard/AA build. And what Sorcerers gain in spell-spamming, they lose in spell flexibility and INT-based Spellcraft modifiers over a Wizard.  Similar comments can be made for Bards as well, so it's really not possible to point to one or the other and say "this is better because..." There's just too many ways to spin the numbers depending on what your focus would be.

[Hellblazer]

It actually makes the least sense of all the options presented.

An AA's abilities are magic.  INT, DEX and WIS have no effect on magic.  INT has an effect on the spells/day of a Wizard, but unless I'm missing an exception or two, it doesn't add any power to casting, DCs or the like of any Wizard's spells.

Since the arrow of death, like any other AA ability, is magic in nature, then DEX and WIS also don't come into play because it is basically the magic doing the work for you.  

No other AA abilities depend on any particular stat directly, so it makes the most sense to base things on AA levels or, at most, caster levels...but I actually don't see a justification for the latter.




That's pretty steep, Milty.  Unless you've mis-typed, that would put the DC at 30 for as soon as the AA could take the feat.  So, a level 20 character with 10 AA levels would have a DC of 30. That's kind of extreme and I don't know of any other class ability, PrC or no, that starts at a DC of 30 and only goes up from there. Remember that AA has an epic progression, which for that particular PrC means anything over 10th level.

What would make more sense is 20 + 1/level above 10 (which is equivalent to 10 + 1/AA level) or something that Nehetsrev suggested, or anything of the sort which starts at the baseline (DC 20) and improves as the Arcane Archer improves.



*grins* Yep!  Be careful what you ask for!

Wellconsidering the death arrow is nothing like seeker arrow that is magically guided to the foe. Death arrow entirely depends on your ab. If you miss the shot, you loose the death arrow until you sleep again. Jil can correct me on that, but as far as I understand it, it's not an automatic hit and far from being a one hit I win situation because of that. So in some part the ability of the archer to hit something comes into play with it which is why I think dex is better than int compared to what I had written in the first place.

As for a dc of 30 right from the bat I think that's wrong. Pretty sure milt meant dc 20 at level 10 +1 each level after. That seems more plausible to me. But only Milt can write for certain what he meant.

In any case like I wrote under milt Idea, his makes perfect sense.

Just to throw this out there, since Milty offered quivering palm for comparison, it has a DC of 10 + 1/2 level + Wis modifier. The key though is that it's tied to a stat which does not provide an attack bonus.

So, at level 20, a dex build monk (eg. my monk) probably has a DC in the neighborhood of 22 or so, and a wis based monk probably has a 27ish DC (?).
Now, a dex build will have a much better chance of landing the attack in the first place, but the wis build has a better chance for a hit to successfully kill something.

The other balancing factor is that quivering palm can only be used on lower level critters.

So... the arrows of death is a little higher level skill than QP, and should probably be a little more powerful. But, 20 + AA level seems significantly more powerful - it doesn't require investment in a non-attacking stat, probably has a higher DC than a comparable level QP, and can be used on higher level creatures.

Now, I am not saying that there necessarily should be a comparison, one can certainly make an argument that as a PRC's level 10 skill it should be more powerful or whatever, but just food for thought.

at level 20 for a mix of wiz(bard/sorc) and aa, the dc if calculated by milt proposition, and keeping it at dc 20 at level 10 of aa +1 there after, would be in between 20 and 25. So in par with a wis based monk at level 20.. even a bit lower by what you wrote. But then you're right that you are completely dependent on the fact it only works on lower hit dice foe than the monk.

[Hellblazer]

Just to throw this out there, since Milty offered quivering palm for comparison, it has a DC of 10 + 1/2 level + Wis modifier. The key though is that it's tied to a stat which does not provide an attack bonus.

So, at level 20, a dex build monk (eg. my monk) probably has a DC in the neighborhood of 22 or so, and a wis based monk probably has a 27ish DC (?).
Now, a dex build will have a much better chance of landing the attack in the first place, but the wis build has a better chance for a hit to successfully kill something.

The other balancing factor is that quivering palm can only be used on lower level critters.

So... the arrows of death is a little higher level skill than QP, and should probably be a little more powerful. But, 20 + AA level seems significantly more powerful - it doesn't require investment in a non-attacking stat, probably has a higher DC than a comparable level QP, and can be used on higher level creatures.

Now, I am not saying that there necessarily should be a comparison, one can certainly make an argument that as a PRC's level 10 skill it should be more powerful or whatever, but just food for thought.

at level 20 for a mix of wiz(cler/sorc) and aa, the dc if calculated by milt proposition, and keeping it at dc 20 at level 10 of aa +1 there after, would be in between 20 and 25. So in par with a wis based monk at level 20.. even a bit lower by what you wrote.

[Hellblazer]

*note to self*

read the thread completely before posting lol

[Dorganath]

Wellconsidering the death arrow is nothing like seeker arrow that is magically guided to the foe. Death arrow entirely depends on your ab. If you miss the shot, you loose the death arrow until you sleep again. Jil can correct me on that, but as far as I understand it, it's not an automatic hit. So in some part the ability of the archer to hit something comes into play with it which is why I think dex is better than int compared to what I had written in the first place.

It's the magic that does the killing, not how "smartly" (INT), "wisely" (WIS) or "precisely" (DEX) the shot is made.  That was my point.

[Hellblazer]

Of a more interesting note as written on lore

At 10th level, the character can enchant an arrow 1x/day that forces a target, if damaged by the arrow, to make a Fortitude save (DC 20) or be slain.

Seems that anything that has a dr higher than what can be dished out from the aa, will never be affected by the AoD, would that also include things that are immune to critical hits?

It's the magic that does the killing, not how "smartly" (INT), "wisely" (WIS) or "precisely" (DEX) the shot is made.  That was my point.

Yep that I understood, I was just pointing out that AoD is far from being an I win situation because of the fact there is many variables that comes into play even before the save of the enemy is rolled. Did you hit? Did your arrow damaged the foe? If both = yes, then roll save vs dc. So that's far from "I shoot and automatically get a save rolled".

[Dorganath]

Seems that anything that has a dr higher than what can be dished out from the aa, will never be affected by the AoD, would that also include things that are immune to critical hits?

There's no explicit note about critical hit immunity, so I would guess it does not apply.

Yep that I understood, I was just pointing out that AoD is far from being an I win situation because of the fact there is many variables that comes into play even before the save of the enemy is rolled. Did you hit? Did your arrow damaged the foe? If both = yes, then roll save vs dc. So that's far from "I shoot and automatically get a save rolled".

I never said it was an auto-kill. "One-shot, one-kill" is a sniper term that implies you use one bullet/projectile that completely kills the target.  That implies (and necessitates) that the projectile is able to strike the target (which is never guaranteed) and sufficiently damage the target.

[Hellblazer]

Hear what I'm saying.  I'm not opposed to growth in the AA's DC for Arrow of Death, but I am opposed to such a major increase at the entry level that increasingly turns into an "I win" button, regardless of how many times/day it can be used.

That's what I am referring to Dorg. Even with an much higher dc, it will never be an automatic "I win" button because of what I already stated in my previous post. But I guess we are both talking of the same thing on different wave length tonight

Anyhow, like I said before, I like the set 20 dc at 10th aa level with a raise of +1 per level.. or per 2 level there after.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I'm awake! Mostly. Let's see....

Your "compromise" results in even greater DC's.

It wasn't a compromise because it would outright lower the DC, but because it would offer more variance to the DC. Apologies if that wasn't clear. I'm not interested in lowering the DC, heh.

entry level

...is 20th level at minimum? As in, that's the first level any Arcane Archer can gain the ability. And yes, by my suggestion, the Arrow of Death would start with a DC of 25+ Int mod, potentially setting it at thirty or higher as soon as the AA has the ability. However, an ability with a DC around 30 is appropriate for characters of 20th level and above. Point and case, pure Spellcasters can easily have DC 30+ spells that kill multiple enemies by 20th level. And they can cast them a lot more times.

increasingly turns into an "I win" button

See my comment above about spells and DCs already allowed/expected.

There's just too many ways to spin the numbers depending on what your focus would be.

My point was not that it was perfectly balanced, but that Int was a reasonable stat to use given the build types. I have actually looked at the numbers. The meanest (most power/killing potential) AAs are bards, if built correctly, followed by sorcerer, with wizards coming in last place. Yes, the wizard can potentially be the most flexible, but he still loses out in raw power. So allowing wizard/AAs to (likely) have the higher Arrow of Death DCs seems appropriate considering it's still only one shot per rest. If the wizard (or sorc) had ditched AA and continued on as a pure caster, he'd be killing a whole lot more than one badguy once per rest with fortitude save or die spells. He'd have a lot more "I win" cards at his disposal.

So, um, yeah, I guess what's most important is that a DC 30+ one-use ability by 20th level is not unreasonable given the current DC standards. And the rest about wizards and int and yada yada was just me defending my ego over someone daring to refute my clearly impressive logic.

[Dorganath]

At the risk of sparking that old....power of casters vs. power of combative classes argument...

A pure spellcaster at level 20 should be more powerful than a multi-classed caster at level 20, so having Power Word, Kill or Weird with a DC approaching 30 actually does not seem out of step.

Arcane Archers get this ability at 10th level. In order to have that at level 20, you either need to have a minimum of 8 bard levels (so let's call it 10 even) or a 5/5 split between a combative class and a caster class. There is no synergy bonus for Arcane Archers like there is for other caster PrCs like Spellsword, so there really is no way to justify that a level 5 or 10 caster should have an equivalent power to a multi-classed build that is more angled toward combative at the same level.

And remember that level 10 is not the end of Arcane Archer progression. One can take levels beyond 10th and continue to grow the ability.

[Hellblazer]

sorry milt, the lowest level a mix of wiz and aa could get the AoD is level 15 (5 wiz 10 aa). Well any mix really bard/aa, sorc/aa.

[Jilseponie Wyndon]

To extend beyond lvl 10 in AA, the only bonus' they would collect is the +1 Enchant Arrow every other level, correct? Outside the bonus feats that most prc's get.

And Hellblazer .. you are correct that you still have to hit the target first with the death arrow before any other rolls or effects happen.  Hit is not automatic.

[Hellblazer]

The ab and the damage bonus goes up at every other levels. If we go past that and apply the new dc for the AoD, then it would be something more to look forward to.

[Dorganath]

sorry milt, the lowest level a mix of wiz and aa could get the AoD is level 15 (5 wiz 10 aa). Well any mix really bard/aa, sorc/aa.

Incorrect. A Wizard doesn't get the +6 BAB until level 12 without some other support class (like Fighter or Ranger), and the Bard doesn't get +6 until level 8.

If Layonara didn't have a minimum requirement of 5 levels per class by 20th, you could potentially take 5 levels in Fighter or Ranger, 1 level in Bard and take the remainder as AA levels and get AoD at level 16.

[Acacea]

Seriously, if you don't take the epic progression for enchant arrow you are lame. Forget GMW on bows!

This might come off as a little off-topic, but to get out of the way first...

I don't really care about I-Win buttons and server spirit and what the heck ever. If a class is advertised to be about x then make them do it well and stop worrying so much about the butterfly effect, especially this late in the game, you know? I also don't care about arguments that you cannot help out one class or class feature without doing them all. Who says? No one should begrudge someone getting cool stuff. If it adds hope for more cool stuff in the future, go for it, or make a cool class character. The odds of everyone getting an overhaul at the same time are pretty low, don't you think?

My concerns at this point are more like, does it make sense? Can it be done with minimal effort to Dorg to implement? Does it add something worthwhile that might actually make it more fun to play, beyond just "I want this one ability to be stronger" or "this spell is overpowered" which will just circle around ad infinitum and does not in itself make for a good time.

That aside, is instant-death magical arrows seriously what AA's are about? Yeah, it's a higher tier ability for them, but so what? You can mechanically qualify for Arcane Archer with a single arcane caster level. ONE. Their magical manipulation of their shots are done with magic, yet they can do them with only one level of a caster class. It's layo requirements that make it five.

At what point in these 1 or 5 levels does DC 30-40+ death come into play as necessary? That is not about helping archers or making sense, that's just wanting more one-shots. Help archers in general by improving ranged combat, not by helping a PRC attainable by a single race. Personally, I would love to have a ranged WM PrC that could be used from anything to live by the longbow specialists to halfling rockslingers.

That's not an Arcane Archer, though. They're like ranged spellswords, relying on arcane talent to augment physical ability. Make AAs cooler by varying their abilities, not by scaling up and up and up their DCs based on things not dying often enough. You'd do better with crits.

Focus on AA abilities by putting magical variation and beefing based on the talents available to them. Arrows delivering ranged touch spells? Vampiric arrows? Slow arrows? All of these things are within just level 3 spells alone. Add magic missile damage. Whatever. We think in such tiny DC boxes and try to compare blends to pures instead of focusing on the advantages of blending, and it's such a disadvantage to the class!

[Hellblazer]

Incorrect. A Wizard doesn't get the +6 BAB until level 12 without some other support class (like Fighter or Ranger), and the Bard doesn't get +6 until level 8.

If Layonara didn't have a minimum requirement of 5 levels per class by 20th, you could potentially take 5 levels in Fighter or Ranger, 1 level in Bard and take the remainder as AA levels and get AoD at level 16.

Oooh that's right! I forgot about that hehehe, and to say that's the road I took with Ty.

[Hellblazer]

Slow arrows?

Nice post, this how ever is already available to any class, with the called shot feat.

In essence I agree very much with you, but the dc of a mastery feat that can't be used on most anything once you reach a certain level due to the saves of the foes you are facing at that level, is not really a mastery feat is it? There has been many scaling changes that has been done with the previous spells to give them more punch for casters of all kind. What's the harm in scaling a feat that would give a bigger incentive to those taking the class but stopping at level 10, to keep going. Maybe they will, maybe they wont, but at least it's there for them. I find it a bit absurd to say that a dc is fine as it is (and I'm not saying that's what being said, but sometime that's how it feels) when what you will hunt at a certain level range will beat that dc rather easily with a 5 and lower. And you are left to either pray to be lucky, or go hunt things that are significantly lower in levels that you are if you are wishing to enjoy that feat. Which is supposed to be the last feat this class gets before becoming an epic class (which they do not get extra feat specific to arcane archer when you go epic arcane archer.) While on the other hand you have a multitude of changes that has already happened to bring more power to the casters.

I'm not saying it should be equal on the spectrum between class. Or that it should be an auto win since it will never be, but having a progressive dc would be a lot more attractive.

Anyhow,we've gone over the subject, a lot of people are in agreement (or somewhat an agreement) that the feat could be humphed, so I'll leave it at that.