Aa's Arrows of death

[Hellblazer]

Alright, first of I know this has already been talked about before, and I know some people have stated they didn't think that aa were underpowered. For the most part I agree. Enchant arrows is a hell of a good bonus. Imbue arrows, not so bad. Hail of arrows.. hmm well I never liked it. But what I'm going to talk about is simply one feat.

Arrow of death has an dc of 20 to fort save.. being that most of everything you will encounter on the central server has a fort save raging in the 14-18 and then when you go further into the eastern part of the world 18+. A dc of 20 is pretty low for the mastery feat of the Arcane Archers, that can only be used once per day (rest).

So what I'm suggesting is pretty simple. Make the feat dc based on aa levels + int bonus.

This way it will show a progression as the Arcane archer gains power, and will still be not unbalancing considering you can only use it once per rest.

[gilshem ironstone]

Why INT?  Not all AA are wizards. I would do maybe 15+0.5*AA levels.

[Hellblazer]

Well that's true that not all aa's are wizard. But it's a good compromise I think. I'm basing this on one fact. AA's are primordially elves, since the half elf will become rarer and rarer as the time line goes, and the favored class of elves is wizard.

[Script Wrecked]

All true. However...

Intelligence is not a requisite of the Arcane Archer for any feat or ability. To add it moves the basis towards the wizard and away from all other variants.

Dexterity is more of a natural fit for an archer. Even so, it could just be based on Arcane Archer level.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Hellblazer]

Dext makes a lot of sense actually.

[Nehetsrev]

Dexterity would be fine, except it then excludes a Wisdom based archer who uses the Zen Archery Feat.  So, for instance, a Cleric/Sorcerer who went Arcane Archer would then be cheated.  A purely level based bonus to the DC would be the best way to go with something like +1 to the DC every 2 or 3 levels of AA, in my opinion.

[Jilseponie Wyndon]

If you go based on AA levels alone most of those with AA classes will still not hit the base 20 that is already given.  Each of the responses do have valid points.  

Int:  Based on the fact you have the intelligence of where to hit on the body to make a killing blow.

Dex/Wis:  The modifier used for targeting/hitting.  You have such exceptional aim.

And no matter which way it goes, someone will always be disappointed.  The only way to go would be to raise the DC.  This is the "Mastery Feat" of the Class.  Its supposed to be the best of all the class, the pot at the end of the rainbow so to speak.  AA's work hard to reach this point.  The Enchant Arrows are nice but not that great of a bonus.  For every odd level you get an additional +1 to damage. Thats +5 by lvl 9.  Most folks could punch a creature for that amount of damage.  Or hit ore with a pick for that amount of damage.  But this is the "Death Arrow" we are talking about.  That single shot that's supposed to slice into the major arteries or the heart/brain that causes instant death.  As a deer hunter myself (Archery) I understand what it is that the arrow does.  Thus, if the numbers can not be adjusted, on a DC save can the target be affected by Bleeding?  They bleed out until death or they heal themselves.  Basically the DC of 20 is the same as rolling a 20 for a critical hit.  Rare.  Otherwise, why even have a "Death Arrow"?  I believe that in employing this measure, it still keeps things "Balanced".

After all we archers actually lose out on a few things.  For example, Coupe De Grace.  Many times have I hit creatures that were occupied with other fighters/stunned/held in place.  Our number to roll for a crit is 20 and with a feat 19 when many other weapons get a larger window.  Yet an arrow pierces deeper, sticks in the body restricting movement continuing to open and aggravate a wound. ((Yeah, RL but not game play)) but I think you understand my point.

So if its going to be a "Death Arrow", make it so.  If it makes the DC save, let 'em bleed until healed by Kit/spell/potion.  Otherwise I have found it has little use (I've tried using it often with great disappointment) and would not recommend AA's to take the class if that is their goal.

[Hellblazer]

Dexterity would be fine, except it then excludes a Wisdom based archer who uses the Zen Archery Feat.  So, for instance, a Cleric/Sorcerer who went Arcane Archer would then be cheated.  A purely level based bonus to the DC would be the best way to go with something like +1 to the DC every 2 or 3 levels of AA, in my opinion.

It's not a bad idea, but like jil said by level 10 if we go that way, the pc wont even have the dc they have now. Are you talking about adding to a set starting dc?

If we are to go with a fix unmodified dc (except adding a +1 every so level) then the dc has to be greatly raised. Not an automatic win, but there is a difference with an automatic win and being lucky at rolling a critical (ie the foe rolls a critical failure 1). I still think that having a set dc modified by an ability bonus would be best.

[Ravemore]

I just wanted to chime in my support for Hellblazer. I think the DC makes this mastery level feat way underpowered considering the dc's of most upper-end creatures they would be fighting on a regular basis. I do not think modifying the DC in the AA's favor would be unbalancing. Just my 2 cents.

[davidhoff]

Maybe base dc of 20 plus 1/2 AA levels.

[Nehetsrev]

Maybe base dc of 20 plus 1/2 AA levels.

 
 This is more what I was meaning, and in a more concise wording.
 
 So Base DC 20 + 1/2 (or 1/3) Arcane Archer Level is what I meant.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I'd be willing to say 20+AA level... when you look at the DCs for quivering palm and dev crit and other epic DCs for killing abilities, that would seem more on par. How many times a day does the AA get an "Arrow of Death"?

[Cinnabar]

How many times a day does the AA get an "Arrow of Death"?

1x/day (and it doesn't look like that increases w/ further levels)

[miltonyorkcastle]

Then 20+1 per AA level seems appropriate.

[Hellblazer]

I agree that it sounds reasonable.

[ycleption]

Just to throw this out there, since Milty offered quivering palm for comparison, it has a DC of 10 + 1/2 level + Wis modifier. The key though is that it's tied to a stat which does not provide an attack bonus.

So, at level 20, a dex build monk (eg. my monk) probably has a DC in the neighborhood of 22 or so, and a wis based monk probably has a 27ish DC (?).
Now, a dex build will have a much better chance of landing the attack in the first place, but the wis build has a better chance for a hit to successfully kill something.

The other balancing factor is that quivering palm can only be used on lower level critters.

So... the arrows of death is a little higher level skill than QP, and should probably be a little more powerful. But, 20 + AA level seems significantly more powerful - it doesn't require investment in a non-attacking stat, probably has a higher DC than a comparable level QP, and can be used on higher level creatures.

Now, I am not saying that there necessarily should be a comparison, one can certainly make an argument that as a PRC's level 10 skill it should be more powerful or whatever, but just food for thought.

[Cinnabar]

Two things:

1) The suggestion is to make the DC 20+1/AA level. Does that mean a DC of 30 when the ability is first available, or a DC of 21 and then going up by 1/AA level from there?

2) This is a great idea/balancer if it can be accomodated in the mechanics.

If it makes the DC save, let 'em bleed until healed by Kit/spell/potion.

[davidhoff]

Don't forget that if it's changed then PC's will have watch out for those AA's that attack us.  Wondering if deathward, shadowshield or foe protect agaist the AA's death arrow?

[Dorganath]

I still think that having a set dc modified by  an ability bonus would be best.

It actually makes the least sense of all the options presented.

An AA's abilities are magic.  INT, DEX and WIS have no effect on magic.  INT has an effect on the spells/day of a Wizard, but unless I'm missing an exception or two, it doesn't add any power to casting, DCs or the like of any Wizard's spells.

Since the arrow of death, like any other AA ability, is magic in nature, then DEX and WIS also don't come into play because it is basically the magic doing the work for you.  

No other AA abilities depend on any particular stat directly, so it makes the most sense to base things on AA levels or, at most, caster levels...but I actually don't see a justification for the latter.

Then 20+1 per AA level seems appropriate.

That's pretty steep, Milty.  Unless you've mis-typed, that would put the DC at 30 for as soon as the AA could take the feat.  So, a level 20 character with 10 AA levels would have a DC of 30. That's kind of extreme and I don't know of any other class ability, PrC or no, that starts at a DC of 30 and only goes up from there. Remember that AA has an epic progression, which for that particular PrC means anything over 10th level.

What would make more sense is 20 + 1/level above 10 (which is equivalent to 10 + 1/AA level) or something that Nehetsrev suggested, or anything of the sort which starts at the baseline (DC 20) and improves as the Arcane Archer improves.

Don't forget that if it's changed then PC's will have watch out for those AA's that attack us.  Wondering if deathward, shadowshield or foe protect agaist the AA's death arrow?

*grins* Yep!  Be careful what you ask for!

[Jilseponie Wyndon]

Just a reminder ... Death Arrow is one shot for the whole round.  No other actions or attacks are allowed.  And its once per rest.  (As is Quivering Palm)  QP is given to a base class and AA is a prestige class.  Prestige, as in better than base class thus probably why the DC is 10 pts higher than QP.  But then you get 1/2 the class lvl and Wis mod which should actually make up for that 10 pt difference.

And no ... spell effects should not protect you from such a shot.  It is a precise shot aimed at the most vulnerable spot on your body.

All this you have spoken of probably won't change things numerical-wise, and thats why I suggested the Bleeding.  It definitely more realistic.  It'll still be a slow death for some, but it makes the feat more believable and useful.