Armour Balancing

[LordCove]

I could be wrong... and please point out if I am.

But when you look at this... what appears to be the VERY best Metal armour in the game....

http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=113852

.. doesn't it kind of pale in comparison to this... ( apparently) the best leather available in the game?

http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=105681

Unless there is other findable leather armour's I havent seen, we wimpy leather armour wearer's seem to be missing out.
Is there any +4 leather armour actually IG?

[s0ulz]

Enchanted mithril pales in comparison to the legendary leather? Not really no. Guess you meant it the other way around.

The enchanted mithril armor set was brought in intentionally to bring the heavy armor bearers back into the game in late epic levels. This is mostly because leather and hide armors allow a bigger dexterity bonus that at higher levels surpasses the heavy armor warriors AC by a large margin. This is an attempt to even the playing field even a bit.

What I can tell you, is that there are very good armors for leather wearers out there too, they just arent craftable just like the enchanted mithril set. So keep an eye out . Just remember that, at such high levels, most armors have drawbacks, either sacrificing dex bonus, damage reduction or resistances. You'll never find them all at once.

[Pibemanden]

Actually if I recall correct that leather armor -should- have been changed from that version though so don't be too sure that it is like that if you get one today.

[LordCove]

What I can tell you, is that there are very good armors for leather wearers out there too, they just arent craftable just like the enchanted mithril set. So keep an eye out .

Ah... thats what I was wondering.

Just aint ever seen one... either in the gallery or for sale anywhere.

Maybe's er.... *coughs*.. notch up on the Leather Armour drops.... er.. by chance?  

[twidget658]

Actually, I have gone 'leatherless' with Rodlin. He just wears the reinforced clothing. I haven't seen any leathers, or armor for that matter, that will give him better protection with his dex bonus. That is, if you are going for AC and damage reduction.
 
 Better leathers? I have seen a couple of the enchanted mitril armors, but have never seen any 'special' leather armors. Please enlighten me.

[s0ulz]

No not special leather armors, but armors focused on the lighter side and bigger range of dex bonus. Krisial's pops to mind and a few others.

[LordCove]

Ah... so no actual "Uncraftable Better Leather armours" for those who cant or havent thrown their DEX into the highest reaches.

Because of course... Leather Armour is just the same as Full Plate really.

Leather AC 2  Max Dex: 6
Half Plate AC 7 Max Dex: 1
Full Plate  AC 8   Max Dex: 0

Either way... they all add up to your standard 8. So unless you've poured everything into DEX and can pass the DEX 26 barrier, where Re-inforced clothing and such is useful, if all you can wear is Leather your kind of in the AC slump area.

It just seems there's a lot of Uncraftable and Better Wizard Robes, Monk robes and Heavy armour ingame... but no Leather armours.

But, Soulz right... if someone knew what they were doing and poured everything into DEX... their AC would exceed anything Mithril could give out. Just a shame for those who "have" to wear leather ( Druids, Folianites, Ranger/Rogue's who never thought ahead  )but never get their DEX that high.

[Weeblie]

It's actually Full Plate AC 8 Max Dex 1... :p

Anyway... There are light armors with AC 1 Max Dex 8 which are very, very nice. And also those other +4 armors with at least equal stats to the mithril armors. Whether they are better than the enchanted mithril armors or not, that's very much up to discussion... the abilities granted are of course not exactly the same, but in my opinion, one cannot claim one's so very much better than the other (i.e. it depends on build).

[s0ulz]

Ah... so no actual "Uncraftable Better Leather armours" for those who cant or havent thrown their DEX into the highest reaches.

No actual "Better Leather" in the sense that they aren't called that. They're mostly named artifacts, unlike the naming method of the heavy armors, where there's just a prefix. The rest of the name indicates clearly the type of armor. They are still classified as leather or cloth armors due to the DEX restraints.

Because of course... Leather Armour is just the same as Full Plate really.

Leather AC 2  Max Dex: 6
Half Plate AC 7 Max Dex: 1
Full Plate  AC 8   Max Dex: 0

Either way... they all add up to your standard 8. So unless you've poured everything into DEX and can pass the DEX 26 barrier, where Re-inforced clothing and such is useful, if all you can wear is Leather your kind of in the AC slump area.

Untrue, there's a whole middle way section there of armors that can max your Dexterity AC bonus and the AC the armor itself offers. As Weeblie said, Full Plate allows a Dexterity Bonus of 1, so it adds up to 9. But the whole point with Dexterity based AC is that it skyrockets in later levels, whereas heavy armor wearers max out at a certain point and have no means beside multiclassing and better gear, to advance.

It just seems there's a lot of Uncraftable and Better Wizard Robes, Monk robes and Heavy armour ingame... but no Leather armours.

The leather armors were revamped slightly as well, reflecting the similarities of different metal armors (resistance vs. reduction), but heavy armors were off way worse before the enchanted set came by. Besides it's only +1 AC, not like we were given a huge boost.

But, Soulz right... if someone knew what they were doing and poured everything into DEX... their AC would exceed anything Mithril could give out. Just a shame for those who "have" to wear leather ( Druids, Folianites, Ranger/Rogue's who never thought ahead  )but never get their DEX that high.

There's plenty of choices in between (4/+4 types and all around that) that can cater to most choices. But unfortunately this still is a number based game and certain features or dominating abilities only start to show once they reach a certain point. NWN has never been friendly to average numbers.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Padded offers 1/8.
Leather, 2/6
Hide, 3/4
Chain Shirt 4/4
Chainmail 5/2
Banded 6/1
Half 7/1
Full 8/1

A character with 18 DEX is still better off in Fullplate than in Leather, or even Studded Leather armor.

It's only in the VERY VERY high DEX scores that fullplate becomes less useful.

Heck, even Pyyran with all of his DEX gear is just as well-off, AC-wise (without Canny Defense) in Padded Armor as in Full Plate Armor (if he could use it).

[ycleption]

It's actually Full Plate AC 8 Max Dex 1... :p

Anyway... There are light armors with AC 1 Max Dex 8 which are very, very nice.

Erm... are you taking about craftable or droppable items?
The best craftable AC 1 armors in the game are along the lines of this:
http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=115562
Which thus far I have seen very little interest in...

I need to make a run to get dark silk some time so I can try making the queen/dark silk blend (just need a few more pieces). My guess is that it will have AC +3 and hide/ms/neg energy bonuses, which might be useful to some people...


As far as leather armors... the dire tiger may be a better armor than the dire bears, with it's 5/- slashing and +1 universal save, even though it only has +2 AC

Actually if I recall correct that leather armor -should- have been changed from that version though so don't be too sure that it is like that if you get one today.

You know, if (purely for experimental reasons and having absolutely nothing to do with my lust for crafting xp) you wanted to supply Drexia with some legendary bear hides I'm sure she'd be willing to help you test out whether or not it's changed (again, my sole motivation is for testing purposes).

Seriously though, from that image, except for the soak it's identical to regular ancient dire bear, so I have to think it's been improved, or at least should be...

[Weeblie]

I'm not sure about their craftable status...

As the super high end mithril enchanted armors are non-craftable, I kind of assume that the super high end leathers are non-craftable either.

[s0ulz]

To help you see that you have plenty of options, I took these shots.

http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=118902

http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=118912

Enjoy. Told you to be patient.

Time to ox your legendary armors if you haven't yet.

[osxmallard]

High DEX based AC is good for a rogue 3/barbarian 2/assassin 2/sacred fist 3/shadowdancer 2 that gets the uncanny dodge feat.

A fighter or ranger frequently loses their dex based AC in combat due to flatfoot and sometimes is better off wearing a heavier armor just to have 'guaranteed AC' instead of 'fickle AC'.

Having a high DEX is nice and it is good to get 'above' the armor table with a huge bonus to AC, but it comes with some severe drawbacks without the uncanny dodge feat.

I also really like the new spider silk and padded armors, but as others have said, the level requirements are far above where they will be useful, except the one set that has a level req. of about 16.

[LordCove]

I need to make a run to get dark silk some time so I can try making the queen/dark silk blend (just need a few more pieces). My guess is that it will have AC +3 and hide/ms/neg energy bonuses, which might be useful to some people...

http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=118922

The armour my guys wearing... which I just noticed... is equivalent to Full Plate if you can muster the DEX for it.. which I can just about do

[Gulnyr]

It just seems there's a lot of Uncraftable and Better Wizard Robes, Monk robes and Heavy armour ingame... but no Leather armours.

Either "seems" is the key word, or I've been missing out for a long time, heh.  

Jennara wears Adamantium Reinforced Clothing (ARC), Cobalt Reinforced Clothing (CRC), Greater Monk's Armor (ARC with a Discipline Bonus), and has one set of Robes of the Broken Hope (CRC with the Slashing Resistance removed and Slow On Hit added).

The Robes of the Broken Hope are the only non-craftable armorish thing aimed more or less at Monks that I know of, so I'd be interested in seeing what other non-craftable things exist (if there are other things) even if Jennara could never afford them.

[LordCove]

The Monk Robes of the Broken Hope were what I was referring to for Monks...

for Wizards I think it's lesser Ladys gift and Ladys Gift... ( fair enough lowish level req.. but still.. uncraftable loot drops as far as I'm aware)
... for Heavier armours I've seen DragonScale Armour, armour of the Old Guard (chainmail) and of course.. recently.. the Enchanted Mithril's.

[lonnarin]

Most of the upper level dex characters I see tend to eschew armor altogether in favor of reinforced clothes or custom robes.  Even us little lvl 9-10 goblins bust into "naked time" once the cats graces are divied up.  

I wish there were better padded armors for lower levels, since most of the interesting skill boosters seem solely the realm of leathers, even heavy metal armors feel a little bland compared to the fun combos one gets with say a panther, lion or bear suit gives, though at least some of those get DR.  Then to make decent clothing, one needs to go mining for ore to reinforce it, while heavier suits of leather just need animal skins weighing less than half as much per nugget.  Seems kind of paradoxial that to make the lightest armor, you need to mine, lift and heft much more CNR than the heavier ones.  Then what happens to druids and thier code of not wearing metal?  They seem to get the choice between leather, hide and complete nudity, with a select few robes they have available.

As for the armor type vs dex bonus values, I always felt that the chart fell apart from chainmail to half plate of useless types.  Unless they just really messed up their str score or thespecific armor held a unique useful enchantment a fighter would never want to wear chainmail to half plate!  Chain shirt is nice and balanced with its 4/4, but then 5/2 of chainmail is less useful to a fighter than if he just used the 8/1 platemail.  As for splint and scale, 6/1 is just pointless, and 7/1 half plate will always be less useful than 8/1.  I wish chain and scale were normalized to 5/3, splint to 6/2, half plate to 7/1, BUT that all of them weighed at most 1/4 what full plate weighed.  Half plate should weigh half of a full plate, that should be the benefit.  What would also help would be differentiating the METHOD in which armors were better or worse than eachother... like leathers soften bludgeoning, chains and scale are good against slashing but chains are bad for piercing, half anf full plate good against all types, but mobility severely reduced (including movement speed).  But sadly WoTC and NWN chose a dead horse system and kicked it into the ground.

Hopefully with the freedom that the next system brings us, our armor types and the benefits they bring will be a whole lot more logical.  It would be nice to have a good reason to pick up a scale mail again.

[Gulnyr]

Half plate should weigh half of a full plate, that should be the benefit.

First, Half Plate isn't just half as many plates as Full Plate.  Half Plate is Chainmail with plates over certain areas (breastplate, epaulettes, elbow guards, gauntlets, tasses, and greaves).  Chainmail weighs 40 pounds, and Half Plate has plates over more than half the body, so 50 pounds for both Half and Full Plate isn't out of line.  

Second, the major benefit of Half Plate over Full Plate in PnP is price.  Full Plate costs almost three times as much as Half Plate.  Price doesn't mean much currently in NWN because of the lack of a real economy.  If the proper fitting of each type of armor were taken into account (time and effort and all that), then a well made suit of Full Plate would cost much more than a well made but simpler suit of Half Plate.  Full Plate offers slightly better protection and allows more maneuverability because it fits better, but it will cost a lot more for that benefit.

Chainmail, like, say, a hauberk, takes some time and skill to make well, but is more or less one-size-fits-all and doesn't really require a master armorer.  A lord could outfit ten soldiers in Chainmail for the same price as one in Full Plate.  Leather armors take some skill, too, but leather is much cheaper than metal (it takes more labor to mine enough ore for one suit of armor than to tan enough skins for one suit of armor), so leathers cost even less. This isn't as big a deal for adventurers, since they don't have to outfit armies, but I thought I'd throw it in.  Price is kind of a big deal in the grand scheme of things.  If characters had to budget themselves, price would add some depth and drama to the decisions on equipment.

[Chongo]

Okie dokie. Sorry for missing this.
 
 Armors were largely redone in August of last year. A lot of the images with the exception of soulz' (thanks) are outdated. It'd be a good thing to take any old leathers and ox them as suggested by soulz.
 
 Here's the general vibe I was going for with the armor changes. A lot of the 26+ armors went into the realm of +4 AC. What you'll notice with the armor changes is that everything between clothing and full plate were ramped up a fair bit in power. Clothing and full plate were ramped up a bit, but not as significantly. Without getting too deep into it, full plate is the most easily capitalized upon armor in the game from level 1 to 40. So while it needs to hit magic level standards, it doesn't need too many perks. Clothing, moreso in the epic levels where +12 to main stats are fairly common, also don't need too many perks. Duelists, monks, and the like can be thanked for that reality. Again, while they were bumped to maintain consistency in magic level, they don't need too many perks. That said, clothing items have more fun love in the droplist then things like full plate I'd contend, especially in the upper CR drop ranges... and so far I haven't seen anyone lucky enough to find one - so that'll be exciting when it comes.
 
 The things that got perks were 3/4's (think studded leather or hide) and the like. The +6 to +8 total armor increase potential armor types. You'll notice with enchanted mithril, for example, that some of the lower armor options like 5/2's will have resistances that are particular to their armor type. I tried to give these some love because for the most part, there is no balancing incentive to wear any sort of medium armor. At all. Light armors have more incentives, though it's still not as easy to build around as full plate or clothing. So everything inbetween has gotten some love.
 
 Old malar leathers should be oxed, now. Old Legendary Dire leathers sould really really be oxed. Old mithril scale mail should be oxed. And so on.
 
 My melee is in padded armor (1/8.), and sometimes in leather (2/6). Yes, full plate would be better, but after the changes it's not by as significant an amount.
 
 You'll find the same general theme with shields.
 
 The bottom line and general goal of this all is that it doesn't sting as much to stray from the general low magic mechanical advantage.
 
 As an aside, there have been more changes submitted in late November '07 that are part of the update Dorg is working on which will reel a few of the mistakes I made in perhaps 'overcompensating' certain build types.
 
 It's finding a happy medium after a whole lot of initial discussion from the team when I instituted the big balance changes in August.
 
 Special Note:  Understand that as with all updates, level requirements will shift when equipment is altered.  Please see the original update posts in August of 2007 for information on the changes and what they meant for you.