Crafting balance

[Hellblazer]

This is more of a discussion than a formal proposition but it is still one.

I would surmise that the crafting system is, at the moment, very unbalanced vs the non magical crafting and the magical crafting. First I want all to know that I understand this is a low magic world. But here is my scenario

lets start off by saying that no it's not easier for magic user to craft their things, wither it be scribing, infusing, enchanting. Fist all of those require a considerable amount of items just to make one scroll, rod, ring, or wand, even worse staffs. And thus those that are built with strength have an easier time with gathering their things and using them quickly, hence going up quickly in a craft, than the magic users who can only carry so much even buffed. (a 10 str mage will only be able to boost himself to 22 str, while most fighting classes are over those numbers just with their rings and ammy, gloves, helmet, belt)

Second both Type of crafting means that the char that is doing it, either has to buy the supplies from someone or go gather them themselves, which means that there is a lot of time spent doing that. Which is perfectly normal in my opinion.

Third only the magical crafting is limited by a number of things that can be done before the character needs to rest. Versus the non magical (armor crafting, fletching, weapon crafting, food cooking, tinkering, alchemy) only stops when someone has no more resources and has to go get some.

Now I would surmise this, wouldn't be as much exhausting for an armor crafting to craft his armor by bashing on a heated piece of metal until it starts to have the desire form, from an Al'Noth wielder to concentrate on infusing or enchanting the spells into a gem or ring?

Right now you have crafts that favor those that can easily gather the supplies they need (or) with little to no cost (only a pattern and a hammer, a pick or a axe) vs those that have to gather multiple cnrs (chisels, axes), craft intermediary resources with even more cnrs, then spent good amount of money on different kind of oils some costing more per unit than sometimes twice the amount of tools used by the other crafts, and then spend an considerable amount of time crafting them with having to rest every so often.

I totally understand that this was made in such a way to limit the magical items in the world, but it just doesn't make sense that something that requires a considerable amount of strength, endurance and time would be able to be made continuously.  Think of it this way, if someone really wanted to take advantage of it, he would asks his friend to go gather the ore he needs, ask an other to go buy the supplies of pattern and hammers he needs (providing him with the money), ask an other to smelt the ore, and him would just keep on making the armor continuously like a unending production line. Now I know you could say, but the caster has to do the same thing. Well no, because once his spells are done, he has to go find a spot to rest that are purposely set at a distance from the crafting areas, so they can not make what I just described. One has to wonder though, how many red bulls does those that make armor, cook, weapon, fletching take to be able to make unlimited things as long as they have the resources to do so. Cause if we really put a time table on it, when you craft 3 hours straight in game, you spend a couple of days crafting in a row. Even ravers have to sleep at some point.

So my suggestion is this. And I know it will make both sides go oh no please don't! But the crafting system as it is now, is just not logical.

1- Either give the magic users ways to rest that are closer to the crafting area (like there used to be some spots in the past that were)

2- Put a fatigue context into the other crafts, so they too have to benefit from running around and rest between crafts.

I just want to point out, that I am not trying to give myself any advantages here on the contrary, while it may advantage one of my character, it would totally disadvantage one of my others who doesn't do in the magical crafting.  But it would balance the crafting system a bit more and give it some logic that is missing at this time. Cause really, I doubt even the best Katana sword smith would be able to hit a katana 2000 times and then make 30 more in a row without being dead tired.

[Pibemanden]

Well... A short reply to the suggestion is how far there actually is to safe rest from some of the crafting areas...

Hall of the Al'Noth Hempstead - 4 transitions
Hempstead advanced crafting hall - 3 transitions
Morakens Tower Hlint - 3 transitions
Vehl crafting center - 3 transitions
Mariners Hold crafting center - 2 transitions
Watchtower crafting station - 14ish(Not really entirely sure about this one might be one within 6)(edit according to Carillon 3 areas)
North Point crafting station - 1 transition
Gray tower crafting station - 3 transitions(Edit it turned out I forgot about something)
Tilmar advanced/normal hall - 4 transitions
Forest of Fogs crafting station - 1 transition

That is my observations on distances anyway... I don't know if there are more places to craft magical things than these so can't answer for them...

Except the temples, I do believe that they might be quite further away from safe rest than some of the stations mentioned here, so maybe adding a safe pray/rest area to them wouldn't be too much from the truth.. Granted that your rest probably wouldn't be safe in some of the temples.

[Hellblazer]

Yep, while those other craft that has no rest limitation can keep on crafting until they fall dead for lack of sleep or of hunger. Which is more my point really.

[Carillon]

Well... A short reply to the suggestion is how far there actually is to safe rest from some of the crafting areas...

Watchtower crafting station - 14ish(Not really entirely sure about this one might be one within 6)

I can think of one within 3! *winks*

[s0ulz]

Not to be considered destructive, here's my opinion.

1- Either give the magic users ways to rest that are closer to the crafting area (like there used to be some spots in the past that were)

As brought out by Pibemanden and briefly mentioned by orth in another thread of miniscule relevance to this one, bringing the resting locations any closer would require building bunk beds over the furnaces and hanging hammocks between tailoring dummies.

2- Put a fatigue context into the other crafts, so they too have to benefit from running around and rest between crafts.

While I agree, that in reality banging metal or working leather would probably be much more time consuming than infusing, not to mention more exhausting physically, the benefit of this balancing act would cause nothing but more discontent and in essence a feeling of neverending grind with crafting.

But it would balance the crafting system a bit more and give it some logic that is missing at this time.

I, personally, think that it's great that different crafts require different methods of completion and it makes sense. Crafting is meant to be more of a pasttime and is hardly of such importance that it needs to be carefully balanced. I mean, some crafts require to rest, some don't. Some yield better Experience Points per Resource than others. Some allow Exceptional items to be created some dont. That's hardly balanced as well, but it's variance.

Not to mention, NWN doesn't allow us to attempt perfect reality nor should we really want it. Crafting should be light-hearted, not a grind.

[Hellblazer]

Thanks for your comments soulz. Espcially loved the bunk beds one.
 
 I just wonder how you consider it is as being of little importance, as you can only get most of the higher gears (rings, amulet, shield, armor) from crafting? I don't think there is any cobalt or mithril armor in the drops, and thus they have to be made by the crafter. Also, while I agree it would put a feeling that it takes more time to complete. It already takes more time for the magical users to complete their things vs the non magical, who, if you check in the list, go higher and faster in multiple crafts, than those that works the magical crafting.

[Pibemanden]

Magical crafting as in?

I figure the only craft where you -have- to rest is infusing, and the reason why you never saw a big field of high level crafters there was because you couldn't make much anyhow, now you don't -have- to rest to level in that craft either, so I don't know which craft actually requires resting for leveling.
As for producing, sure infusion and divinely blessing potions require rest, but the things you get out(Unless they made heal potions enchantable, never checked that) aren't really worth much. Sure you can get stoneskin and you can get a nice staff, but the dropped staffs are superior to the infuseable ones anyhow and stoneskin you get isn't really going to help you much beyond Dregar, if even there.
I would go so far as to say infusion is, even with the addition of bullets, is the most pointless craft there is seen from a gameplay perspective. That being said I still like it and leveled Storold to the maximum from before the bullets got added simply for the sake of rp, it is great for rp but if you want something useful craft potions or scrolls.
And come to think of it, sure you need to rest to make scrolls too, but then it should be considered that it takes one spell slot to make one scroll. What you really want there is breach/greater stoneskin scrolls to avoid using spellslots on those spells. Shadowshield is great as well, but rather costly and premo even more so.
Basicly, the magical crafts aren't really doing anything great for you, neither does any other crafting. Sure you can make something nice you need once, and sure you can earn some trues when someone gets to the level where they need something nice and want to pay you to make it.
When all comes to all, I believe that by not crafting you might be able to make more true, not really miss out on anything, and still have the equipment you need. Surely mages can get a little boost from crafting some scrolls, and surely they can boost others a little with one selected wand and get a nice staff. They pay a small price in gathering and they have to run back and forth for a little while to do it, but it only adds more to the power these classes have in the first place so I doubt that it is worth complaining about them not being able to make more than they are right now.

[Hellblazer]

You do have to rest for scribing, as you need 3 spells to be ready for the scroll you want to create. Aslo you need to rest to get the 3 spells slots ready when you enchant gems with ability spells. It is the same when you actually enchant by divining.
 
 I totally know what you mean about the infusing Peb, Rain may not be in the list anymore but from the exp, he is 3rd I think, stuck at the infusing of staffs, that he won't be able to do due to being unable to get the resources.
 
 My point being though is not to take the rest away, but make it more accessible, and put a rest timer for the more physical crafts too.

[s0ulz]

Thanks for your comments soulz. Espcially loved the bunk beds one.
 
 I just wonder how you consider it is as being of little importance, as you can only get most of the higher gears (rings, amulet, shield, armor) from crafting? I don't think there is any cobalt or mithril armor in the drops, and thus they have to be made by the crafter. Also, while I agree it would put a feeling that it takes more time to complete. It already takes more time for the magical users to complete their things vs the non magical, who, if you check in the list, go higher and faster in multiple crafts, than those that works the magical crafting.

What I meant about little importance, was that it is not something that absolutely has to be carefully balanced in order to keep the world revolving. It's a cosmetic change towards reality, nothing that is currently so out of whack that it pushes the scales heavily towards one or the other. That's all.

[stolen]

Not to be considered destructive, here's my opinion.



As brought out by Pibemanden and briefly mentioned by orth in another thread of miniscule relevance to this one, bringing the resting locations any closer would require building bunk beds over the furnaces and hanging hammocks between tailoring dummies.

Thats a GREAT idea!!