Crafting Recertification

[Dorganath]

@Stranzini: You are correct. It is the device that checks for the certificate, not the hall. The advanced halls check for character levels only, and the public halls check for nothing.
  Regarding your idea overall, I see and understand where you're going with this, but I'm having trouble seeing where the benefit would be all that great, especially when considering the complexity that this would add to the system.Even though a different badge would be needed for each craft, they're still only one-time purchases, and ultimately don't impact the economy overly much, especially if you consider that most people may pursue 5-6 crafts at most.
  Further, there's the question of whether or not the extra complexity this would add is worth the benefit it might provide us at this time. There are much bigger things on our minds at the moment, though I won't rule out the possibility of further adjustments to CNR as time goes on, and especially into the next version of Layonara.

[Force_of_Will_]

I was thinking of suggesting badges for each Craft.
Keep the prices the same and I like the Idea of an annual fee.
Kinda like Union dues.

[LoganGrimnar]

a badge for each table and a annule fee? i really must say i dont like this idea. As ive said before, i craft becouse i have fun doing it, i make very little profit from it. I also dont have time to run around killing things to get gold so i can pay a "Annule fee"

[Variable]

I agree with Logan, I think that the Crafting badge is a good idea but having to pay an "annual fee" would only hurt those who craft for fun and those who have little time to play.

[Stranzini]

@Dorganath - Well, I'm not sure that you can fix "the economy" from a macroeconomic point of view. I don't think the economic simulation's ever going to be that good. All I'm trying to do is think about how you can change individual player behavior.

My opinion is that the universal crafting badge has little to no effect on individual player behavior because pretty much everyone will get one sooner or later and once they get one, there is no reason to behave any differently than they did before it existed. Other people were proposing arbitrarily restricting the number of crafts people were allowed to practice, which didn't really seem like a very good solution because of both the transitional problems it would create for all the players with heavy playtime already invested in their characters and because...well, it just seems like a drag to arbitrarily restrict people's playing choices like that. I suggested the individual craft badges because I think it really would change individual behavior...people would perhaps forego some crafts because the need for a badge would force an incremental choice for each craft...do I need to tinker enough to get a badge? do I need to do alchemy enough to get another badge? etc...and thus perhaps player-player cooperation and commerce would be increased because getting a tinker to sell you some molds might be more interesting for a weapon maker if making his own molds would mean buying a tinkering badge on top of his other badges...even leading people to delay adding another craft until later in their character development would seemingly be helpful..."someday I'll get a tinkering badge and make my own molds but right now, I need the gold, I'll buy the molds or work out some kind of a service swap deal with this here player character halfling tinker"

Honestly, I don't think the single badge as implemented now is going to change anything at all, I'm just trying to suggest a way to have it make a difference...

Not saying its the biggest fish the development team has to fry of course, just reacting because seems like you guys were trying to accomplish something with the badge and that maybe isn't going to have the effect you want as it is.

[Dorganath]

@Stranzini -- The badges were never meant to balance the economy on their own. That's why they're one-time purchases. It was a way of making crafting more like a profession. It was a way of raising funds for the war effort (remember the war?) which has finally reached the formerly safe continent of Mistone. It's a way of saying, "You don't have to craft, but if you do, you need a permit."
  Time and experience has shown us that as a whole, players are not likely to change their behaviors in a significant way. Economic discussions have been going on for some long time now, and despite requests by Leanthar and the GM Team, no real behavioral modifications were made. After many months of this, and then lengthy discussions and deliberations, we began to address the issues in code in order to take gold out of the economy.
  So now as a result:  * We have eliminated the "Greenstone Lottery" and the chances of stumbling upon an emerald in a hunk of much lesser minerals are gone (since people sold those for much more than their actual value, propelling a level 5 peasant into a level 5 prince in a matter of minutes). Along similar lines, we've limited the amount of CNR that can come from a single deposit of ore or from a single tree.
  * We have added a badge system that requires charactes to possess them in order to craft. We could eventually have them expire, cost more, etc., but they were only ever meant to have a minor role anyway.
  * People would not stop crafting in bulk (meaning loading up the tables with enough CNR for 20 items which produced a glut of items and exploited the CNR XP code) so we imposed realistic limits upon how many things could be crafted at once.
  * Most significantly, but not currently active, we added the ability to require a certain amount of gold for each crafting attempt, depending on the recipe. This system is in-place and tested, but simply not active.This together with different XP rewards for crafting and different pawn shops would have been a significant tool to allow us to drain gold from the economy. However, after further consideration, we decided not to implement this particular system at this time, for it was deemed to be too much.
  So while I tend to agree with you that the best way to keep the economy stable is by asking players to voluntarily modify their behavior, so far that has not worked out as nicely as it could have.

[Stranzini]

You're absolutely right, you'll never get people to change their behavior voluntarily.

And the changes that you describe were good ones.

I hope you do not ever do the last one - as a character who does not craft for money, but for RP and character definition reasons (they do exist, presumably its what we want to have on Layo) and as a permanent pauper (how many musical instruments do you think you can ever sell anyway?), that would be death for Sen Stranzini who already spends all his money replacing his tools. What that would probably do is make it so the only people who craft are the ones who want to make money, and they'd only craft the profitable items like weapons. Boring for Layo!

I think you'd turn exactly the wrong characters off of crafting, and you'd still have a market flooded with longbows.

[Leanthar]

@Stranzini, yeah--definetly a possiblity that is for certain. But if we do it right I think we could find a balance. (I stated IF)

[Crunch]

Regarding the concept of a fee per use on the crafting bench, one idea I have mulled over for quite some time is that you might make items on the bench and only pay to take the items home with you.  The guild house gets to keep the item for its resale value if you don't pay the charge.  If you are practicing making say copper daggers to learn weapons crafting, from an RP perspective you are doing it under the tutelage of the craft hall master weaponsmith.  You have brought all the supplies with you and he is giving you pointers on how to correctly make your daggers.  When you are finished the daggers are his for resale, presumably to the local army, constibulary, or merchants, or you can pay him cash for his time and take the dagger with you.  This would cut down on the crafted items in circulation and still allow people to practice low level crafting without needing a bunch of cash in their pockets.

[Leanthar]

@Crunch, this has been brought up a few times and it does sound like a good idea. Let me talk to the team and see what they think it would take.  Essentially there would be no return on goods---but... you would woul dhave to put the ingriedients in place (resources).

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

That sounds good for weapon crafting, and essentially anything else that can be done in the crafthall, but what about alchemy, cooking, and holy potion-brewing, batman?

I don't know how much lag this would add (a possible way around this would be to make every temple-like place an area of it's own), but you could impose deity checks on all potioncraft attempts, and have it charge for use by those who aren't members of the church, or an allied church. Makes sense, eh? And otherwise, don't impose a need for a badge. Sure, we might get a slew of new Ilsarans, but... *He shrugs.* Balance. (EDIT: The friendly fee might also be nothing, the neutral might be minimal, unfriendly high, enemy totally prevented from using the facilities.)

Cooking... A small(!) fee every time you actually attempt a crafting on a cooking device sounds good; who's doing the upkeep on those things, anyway? And who cleans? @.@

Alchemy, scribing, etc... Moraken might actually allow people to craft at his place for free; y'never know. As for the Hall of the  Weave, I've always thought that was some sort of public service, too. If all the others run on a similar principle, then bada-bing. Just release any requirements for the Moraken's/Hall of the Weave type crafting objects.

Combine these with the above idea for the crafthall, and I think we've got a balanced, incredibly sensible and realistic, way of setting things up.

[jrizz]

please dont make crafting cost anymore. The advanced cert badge stopped me dead in my tracks, I only now have gotten the gold to buy one (with all the other stuff I need).

[Rowana]

what about quests to make certian number of items for npcs, somewhat like the errands of package and letter deliviering, or the 'fetch me this' quests. i've no real idea what the quest reward might be but it gives an out to items from the system, and really what the practicing crafter wants is to make that stuff for exp so they can make sellable items or for character defintion reasons and the like. there are certian items they make to sell to the players, but there are many items that are just plain easier to make for some of us, and so we make those because the others are down right impossible at the time.

i don't think *advanced* crafting badges for spacific tables would be such a bad idea, *if* the cost wasn't quite as much. as a new player to Layonara having to buy a badge to start a specific craft when i didn't even know how the system worked would have really put a stop to it. My inital character had it built in on her bio that she food crafts, so obviously went with that. however, i chose to do a few other things that were in character, such as tan hides and the like because to waste is a sin, and those skins were a by-product of hunting for food. her outlook is don't take it of you don't need it or someone else doesn't need it. so she would much rather stun or put to sleep a wild animal then kill it, unless she was hunting for food or some similar purpose. selling those badger pelts and bats etc, is pretty much a no go, so she used them herself. even deer and dire pelts are hard for her to sell, because she just doesn't see things that way. i'm not entirely certian what it is that needs be fixed as i am new (all game economies have bumps so i understand the concept) and i've really not seen much in the way of transactions so i can't say there is a plethera of unused goods laying around, but i'd believe that to happen pretty easily. quests are a aweful darn handy tool to remove items and gold from an suffering economy. the reward doesn't even have to be that great, just having someone who needs your stuff and getting it out of the bank is reward enough for me!

[Dorganath]

Rowana - 3/29/2006  2:55 PM what about quests to make certian number of items for npcs, somewhat like the errands of package and letter deliviering, or the 'fetch me this' quests. i've no real idea what the quest reward might be but it gives an out to items from the system, and really what the practicing crafter wants is to make that stuff for exp so they can make sellable items or for character defintion reasons and the like. there are certian items they make to sell to the players, but there are many items that are just plain easier to make for some of us, and so we make those because the others are down right impossible at the time.

 We used to have these, but they were abused and exploited, so we took them out.

[Rowana]

well that's bad news... will go back to the think tank with this then! *smiles*