Author Topic: Earning A Level Per Month (Read 3099 times)

Pen N Popper · « **on:** October 08, 2006, 06:21:20 am »

I have had this thought a number of times over the years (here and on other servers) and would like to hear your thoughts on it. The suggestion is to offer a "free" level per RL month.

The goal of such a policy is to maintain and encourage players with casual gaming playtimes to keep coming to Layonara. By "casual" I mean those that are able to play a couple of times a week for 10 to 15 hours.
Conditions to earn the level
[INDENT] 1. Player must reach level 5 on their own before getting their free level[INDENT] * This encourages the new players to go through the introduction quests, which often are there to give a feel for the world.
[/INDENT]2. The level number is based upon the number of months eligible, not the PC's current level[INDENT] * After first month, PC is eligible for free bump to 6th level. After second month of eligibility, 7th level. And so on.
* After three months, the PC would be 8th level. After one year, the PC would be 17th level. After two years 29th level.
* It is likely that PCs will be ahead of this curve often until higher, more difficult to attain, levels.
[/INDENT]3. Player may only have two PCs active[INDENT] * Any more indicates they are not focusing on the development of a single PC
* Only one of the PCs may earn the level per month. If they have two PCs, only one of them would be allowed to receive the level per month.
[/INDENT]4. The PC to get the level must be played six hours per week for a total of 24 hours per month.[INDENT] * This number would reflect what the team thinks a reasonable amount of playtime is.
* The 24 hours should be spread out over the month, not on a single weekend.
* Six hours would represent a reasonable, but dedicated, amount of playing time
[/INDENT]5. The levels would be by calendar month[INDENT] * This is to make it easier for the GM team to manage
* I imagine a system where PC names were entered into a DB table outside the game when they are eligible. The PC would then "use" an altar in Hlint to get the level.
[/INDENT]6. A CDT must be kept and updated weekly for the PC by the player[INDENT] * It can be brief and should indicate what they did that week in terms of RP, CNR, quests, and bashing.
* It should list their hours played, though this would be verified outside the game by server logs.
* Thread must be entitled "PC Name - Level Eligibility" for easy spotting by GM team (eg. "Bumblebee - Level Eligibility")[/INDENT][/INDENT]Arguments against the system I can foresee:[INDENT] 1. Levels should be earned by getting XP from quests and bashing! [INDENT] * What about the RPers that add depth to the world? What about the basher that can only play a limited amount of time? What about the players that cannot make it to GM quests often? More players is a good thing for the server. The rules surrounding this system means these players are here consistently, use the forums, and are invested in staying with their PC and with Layonara.
[/INDENT]3. I worked hard to get to my level, they should have to too! [INDENT] * We all work hard at our PCs. Play times differ, playing styles differ, definitions of success differ. After three months of playing under this system a PC would be 8th level. Does that seem like a lot?
[/INDENT]4. It will be a burden on the GM team.[INDENT] * Yes, this is my largest concern. The only piece really necessary, though, is a table with the number of hours played by a PC per week, the number of PCs played in that time, and a link to the PC's CDT level eligibility thread.
[/INDENT]5. Why are you suggesting this system, don't you have a successful PC? [INDENT] * I am suggesting this system out of my own frustration. I play many, many hours but find it very difficult to gain XP in the quantities necessary to level. I am constantly having to make the choice of RPing versus going out to get XP.
* My playtime, though copious, does not overlap many quests. The primary source of XP for me is bashing. I keep a sparse CDT thread. It is sparse mostly because I don't interact with GMs on quests and the record there is for my own benefit, not theirs.
* Bumblebee has been around for six months. Under this system he would be eligible for 11th level. He is currently 30k XP away from that level right now. I can normally get around 15k XP per day from bashing with others. Alternating days of bashing with RP means a total of four RL days to that level. That's about 20 hours of playtime for me. For those of you fortunate enough to be able to go on quests, that 30k comes from one three hour quest.
[/INDENT][/INDENT]Pros[INDENT] * Keep players even during periods when playtime is limited.

Avoid discouragement as the higher levels come

Cons[INDENT] * More work for GM team
[/INDENT]I beg of you, do not turn this thread into a diatribe on the benefits of RPing over XP. Please give the pros and cons of the system described, offer new tweaks to it, shortcomings, and alternatives. My sincere thanks will then be yours in abundance.

crazedgoblin · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2006, 06:36:19 am »

my input to this would be, from my experiance takeing so long to level up allows the person to get to learn his spells to the best ability, for example when i leveld up to 10 with my bard i lost a large chunk of my soloing ability by looseing a decent summon for a decent spell, and the time its taken me to get almost to level 11 ive learnt to use him without summons, players need to learn how to use their class to its full potential with these long levels.

Grid Blader · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2006, 06:45:48 am »

Pen, there are some that choise to take that long to level. I did with Q, I wanted him to be known. I can see were you are comming from. Not a bad idea. For some that come here to RP and ont travle much, it would reward the RPing.

Pen N Popper · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2006, 06:57:07 am »

@crazedgoblin -- Your PC Jamesan was approved in March, so by this system he would be eligible for 10th level (assuming you met the requirements). Looking on LORE indicates he's currently 10th level. Edit: Bad math on my part; Jamesan would be eligible for 12th level.
@Grid Blader -- The system is not required to be used, of course. Not being forced to go bash may allow a PC to actually become better known. Both valid points, thanks.

Force_of_Will_ · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2006, 07:14:45 am »

I played on a server that had Trainers for each class.They were PCs themselves.Kinda like WLs.The Trainers assigned a task to the person that they had to complete.Weither it was RP or combat was up to the Trainer.If the player didnt complete the task or died they had to wait another time limit.

The Trainer had an Orb in their inventory kinda like the WL rod.
This server also had a time limit per lv.
1-3 no limit
4-6 every 2days
7-9 once a week
10+ once a month

Lv 12 was max on this server.
I had a Cleric there that was a trainer and it took over a year and a half to get there.
Trainer(WLs) had to get their lv up from a DM

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2006, 07:15:49 am »

Under the system, assuming I didn't make any XP (and seeing how I made level 5 with Pyyran in that first month), Pyyran would be level 17.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that, but if I had spent more time on Pyyran, and put more effort towards it, he might be that level now. Then again, under the system, I'd not have put as much effort as I have into playing him the way he's been played. He might never have evolved into the Adventurer he is... *Shrugs.* Then again, he might've.

I have to say, though, that I, for one, would be a wee bit resentful of those who abused the system by logging on just long enough each week and month to get that level. There are those for whom the system would work as intended, but... The road to abuse is clear, wide, and easy.

Then again, as one of the people who spent significantly more than a month for the majority of the levels my primary character's picked up, I'm probably rather biased.

Pen N Popper · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2006, 07:28:43 am »

@Stephen -- How do you envision abuse? They would only be allowed to have two PCs, and only one would be eligible to earn the level per month each month. Would you really feel resentment towards a player that got to 12th level after seven months? I purposefully tried to keep the abuse factor out of this system.

@Force of Will -- Did the system work well? What were the drawbacks of it?

Weeblie · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2006, 07:32:44 am »

I think the pressure on the DM team would be too great. Either, they have to monitor everyone (takes lots of time) or they don't (might... or... rather... will be abused).

It's a very great idea, but I don't think it would work in practice.

Edit: The abusive factor is simply to have one primary "normal" character and a second "free level up" character (until the second character reaches a high enough "powerful/fun" level).

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2006, 08:01:33 am »

Weebs has it.

For example, I could've kept Cynn around... She was created, what, eight months ago? So, let's assume I made level 5 within a month; that's seven levels. I could've played Pyyran, and got on to RP as Cynn every now and again, and just had Cynn accrue levels this way. She'd be equal to Pyyran by now, and would probably have already made the shift to Weapon Master. That would be a level twelve character who got past the AGONIZING stretch of 8-11 in just three months with minimal playtime, something I'd otherwise have to do some serious powergaming to accomplish (something I'm not very good at, I should add.

) Or spend every waking hour on quests... Which would admittedly be about eight pounds of fun.

However, I wouldn't have had to put nearly as much work into Cynn as I have with Pyyran. I can see perhaps doing this for those with just one active character, but...

"Leapfrogging" it would be an easy way to level.

Pen N Popper · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2006, 08:37:06 am »

I see the trend here (and on IRC) is that the players would abuse the suggested system. So instead of encouraging players to play, even if only for a few sessions per week, it would encourage players to find a way to have a PC ready to play when they're uber enough. Sad, really. Even Stephen's post above suggests that leveling is "agonizing" and yet it is the thought of the abusive players that most impacts any solution to this.
I wonder, though, how much of a negative impact would a 20th level after 15 months have versus a 20th level after four months. Who really cares? I am naieve, I suppose, in thinking I would rather encourage the good apples to stay rather than prevent the bad apples from abusing. (I realize it is much more complicated than that and I fully appreciate the chore the GM team has to squelch the nonsense we players come up with to get ahead.)

Dorganath · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2006, 09:59:11 am »

20th level after 4 months is quite rapid leveling, and as we all know, speaks of power-leveling vs. RPing. What's the difference? The 20th level that takes 15 months to hit that point (about what it took me, incidentally) is more in keeping with the world's spirit than the one who rushes up to 20th in 4 months. There is no harm for someone reaching 20th in 15 months...none at all. That's actually behind the curve in the old expectations, where 20th level in 1 year was the target and the minimum. But then the assumption is that if one attains a level, they've earned that level. This is an eternal pitfall of level-based systems like this; the unfortunate thing is, one does not improve as, say, a wizard by sitting around on benches in some small town. About the only class that would help is a bard, realistically speaking. XP reflects doing, not sitting.
Crafting is an example of getting XP for doing, and potentially RPing, but which does not fit into the overall scheme of a particular class. It would take a lot to level a character through crafting alone. It would in fact just simply take far too long. Is the character being idle? No. Is he/she learning and gaining experience? Absolutely. But being good at tinkering does not make a person a better cleric, for example.
The most obvious avenue of abuse here is for someone to log on, park their character somewhere and do nothing for 6 hours a week (wouldn't be too difficult). The second most obvious avenue is someone who goes out and grinds for XP...or even quests for XP...on a regular basis AND gets the freebie.
One other thing I'd like to point out....
Quest XP given by GMs is rewarded on a sliding scale depending on one's level for each hour of quest time, and each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested, it would become better to not quest and just chat in Hlint than it would be to go out and quest.
We surely don't want to speed up leveling, in my opinion.

Pen N Popper · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2006, 10:43:32 am »

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Dorganath - 10/8/2006 12:59 PM
*smiles* I was waiting for my visit from Dorganath. I get called to the principle's office often as the two of us play contrarians. :-)
20th level after 4 months is quite rapid leveling, and as we all know, speaks of power-leveling vs. RPing. What's the difference? The 20th level that takes 15 months to hit that point (about what it took me, incidentally) is more in keeping with the world's spirit than the one who rushes up to 20th in 4 months. There is no harm for someone reaching 20th in 15 months...none at all. That's actually behind the curve in the old expectations, where 20th level in 1 year was the target and the minimum. But then the assumption is that if one attains a level, they've earned that level. This is an eternal pitfall of level-based systems like this; the unfortunate thing is, one does not improve as, say, a wizard by sitting around on benches in some small town. About the only class that would help is a bard, realistically speaking. XP reflects doing, not sitting.
XP reflects doing only because we don't get XP for RP here in significant quantities. You admit there are situations where we do give XP for RP, right?GM quests that areRP focused, WLs in recognition of players, to name two.Layonara is denoted as an"RP server." Should an asterick be added that says, "This is an RP serverbut you don't get any XP for doing that; XP is for doing."No, that would be a poor message I suspect.
Crafting is an example of getting XP for doing, and potentially RPing, but which does not fit into the overall scheme of a particular class. It would take a lot to level a character through crafting alone. It would in fact just simply take far too long. Is the character being idle? No. Is he/she learning and gaining experience? Absolutely. But being good at tinkering does not make a person a better cleric, for example.
XP reflects doing only because we don't get XP for RP here in significant quantities. Should there be a reward for a well-RPed rogue tinker? What about a cleric that doesn't leave town but spreads the word of his god? Why shouldn't we get XP for the "experience" of RPing?
The most obvious avenue of abuse here is for someone to log on, park their character somewhere and do nothing for 6 hours a week (wouldn't be too difficult). The second most obvious avenue is someone who goes out and grinds for XP...or even quests for XP...on a regular basis AND gets the freebie.
You might have misunderstood me: You do not get a free level based upon PC level, but basedentirely upon number of months. A 15th level PC after four months would only be eligible for a bump to 9th level. The 15th level PC would have to wait six months without a level to catch up.
One other thing I'd like to point out....
Quest XP given by GMs is rewarded on a sliding scale depending on one's level for each hour of quest time, and each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested, it would become better to not quest and just chat in Hlint than it would be to go out and quest.
I would love to quest. This system is for those that can't enjoy the benefits of such.
We surely don't want to speed up leveling, in my opinion.
I think in the first paragraph you indicate that 20th level after 15 months, which is based upon my originally stated formula of a lever per month, is a fine progression. I'm not sure I understand how that speeds up leveling.

Guardian 452 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2006, 11:34:09 am »

What bout the people who...

Cant make quest times?

Cant devote 2 to 6+ solid hours in front of their PC?

Dont know the people involved with the CDQ, or WL so they are not welome?

Its the 4th month of a 6 RL month on going quest and they arent allowed in (and franlky wouldnt know what is going on anyway) ?

..And dont want to go grind hours on end killing everything that yeilds good EXP reguardless of it makes RP sense or not...

What about those people?

Their has been a lack of small one timer quests recently... not that I really have anything against series quests... im sure for those who make them they are beyond amazing... but for the those sitting on the sidelines watching all these series quests, invite only quests etc etc... we are left where we are in level... or forced to take other means to try and advance our characters.

People ARE going to abuse ANY sytem that is in place, and the part that makes me sick to my stomach is how the entire world has to suffer because of them.

I like the principal of the idea mentioned here... Though I will not say if its time frame is right or wrong... Just saying I like the general idea.

Lets give people something... yes its going to be abused by some!... but they are already abusing everything else! That's what I think my wild ramblings are trying to say... instead of taking all these steps to put the brakes on the minority... lets give the majority something to smile about... instrad of just watching the power gamers make laps around us.

G-452

LordCove · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2006, 12:36:40 pm »

Very good arguements both Pro and Cons for this idea.

I might have missed something.....so bare with me.

I understand the whole leveling up per month.....but as we know....once you get beyond level 10....it may take a lot longer to hit level 11.....and so on and so forth. Perhaps the time frame could be expanded once certain levels are hit....ie...13th level requires 2 months to pass (for the extra AttackperRound).....beyond 18th requires 3 months.

But on a personal note, I like the idea of having to "work" to get your character higher. Not grinding XP....but questing, RPing and such.Kind of destroys the achievements of those high lvl chars who came before us.
But of course... aint my choice...down to L and the community. But still.....good idea. Which is what makes this place great.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2006, 01:25:39 pm »

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Dorganath - 10/8/2006 12:59 PM

each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested,

We surely don't want to speed up leveling, in my opinion.

Quote

Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 1:43 PM

I think in the first paragraph you indicate that 20th level after 15 months, which is based upon my originally stated formula of a lever per month, is a fine progression. I'm not sure I understand how that speeds up leveling.

Take a look at Dorganath's numbers. If a level takes, say, 45 quest-hours, that comes out to 15 3-hour sessions, which could take 4 months (one quest per week). 2 3-hour quests a week would take 2 months, and isn't impossible for those with plenty of play time. Only people who live on Layonara can make 4 quests a week and cover 45 quest-hours in a month, but only if there are enough quests available. With only a 24-hour requirement to qualify for a level, your system halves the in-game hour requirement (24 rather than 45) and potentially quarters the months it takes to level (one level in one month rather than one level in four months). I think that's what Dorg means about speeding up leveling.

I'm aware that doesn't cover bashing XP, and I can sympathize with the players whose characters would rather not kill everything that glows red, since doing so means breaking character just for the OOC concept of XP.

Dorganath · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2006, 01:33:52 pm »

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Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 12:43 PM
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Dorganath - 10/8/2006 12:59 PM
*smiles* I was waiting for my visit from Dorganath. I get called to the principle's office often as the two of us play contrarians. :-)

*chuckles*

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Quote
The most obvious avenue of abuse here is for someone to log on, park their character somewhere and do nothing for 6 hours a week (wouldn't be too difficult). The second most obvious avenue is someone who goes out and grinds for XP...or even quests for XP...on a regular basis AND gets the freebie.

You might have misunderstood me: You do not get a free level based upon PC level, but based entirely upon number of months. A 15th level PC after four months would only be eligible for a bump to 9th level. The 15th level PC would have to wait six months without a level to catch up.

[/b]
You are correct. I did misunderstand.

Quote

Quote
One other thing I'd like to point out....
Quest XP given by GMs is rewarded on a sliding scale depending on one's level for each hour of quest time, and each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested, it would become better to not quest and just chat in Hlint than it would be to go out and quest.

I would love to quest. This system is for those that can't enjoy the benefits of such.

[/b]
This still does not address the fact that your proposed minimums far exceed those benefits of GM-driven quests. To be honest, I see that as the biggest weakness in this plan. Ideally, the fastest way to level would be attending a lot of quests each month. In general, this is true, but sadly, "strategic" bashing can produce more XP faster. RP is difficult to define, and can span from the best-played, deepest and most believeable character to the guy who just sits on a bench for hours watching the world go by. The former may deserve a level each month, while the latter deserves to get the bill for bench maintenance.
I'm all for a way to reward RP. The pitfall here is that is also rewards sloth.

Pen N Popper · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2006, 03:54:50 pm »

Not sure how to respond to the thought that those that go on quests deserve to level faster than the rest of us. I suppose there are those that don't like quests but that's not the feeling I get from reading all the posts asking for more quests or bemoaning the fact they cannot make them. I also suppose that some are able to make enough quests that they feel no XP pressure. Do you think those that make quests would level more slowly than one level per month? No way.
The real question is, is there a way to support and encourage those of us that 1) do not make quests, and 2) are not powergamers. Perhaps I'm just a minority here and generally clueless. Don't think so, though.

Tanman · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2006, 04:05:46 pm »

Pen, I am one of those few that can't make it to the quests as I am in NZ. However there I do believe that there are more spontaneous quests from the DMs. Something perfect for BumbleBee!

Spontaneous quests that happen and complete that time are great. I have been on one, and I hope that the DM's are going to gear that up. Its what makes Layonara truly immersive.

Dorganath · « **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2006, 05:21:10 pm »

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Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 5:54 PM Not sure how to respond to the thought that those that go on quests deserve to level faster than the rest of us. I suppose there are those that don't like quests but that's not the feeling I get from reading all the posts asking for more quests or bemoaning the fact they cannot make them. I also suppose that some are able to make enough quests that they feel no XP pressure. Do you think those that make quests would level more slowly than one level per month? No way.
The real question is, is there a way to support and encourage those of us that 1) do not make quests, and 2) are not powergamers. Perhaps I'm just a minority here and generally clueless. Don't think so, though.

Oh, I'm not saying that people who go on quests "deserve" to level quicker than people who don't particularly those who also do not tend to go out "bashing". The implication there is that quests are more about RP than XP, and that ideally, the choice of people to RP would be preferable, not only because it gives XP but also because of the RP. That's what I'm saying.
As for how quickly one might level in a month....I can say from some experience that it still takes several quests per week in order to level inside of a month with no other sources of XP. Someone who makes 1-2 quests per week (such as those who can only make quests on weekends), say 4-6 hours each, would take about 2 months to level, give or take.
Despite what you may think, I do appreciate what you're saying here and what you're trying to do.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2006, 05:32:51 pm »

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Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 6:54 PM
Do you think those that make quests would level more slowly than one level per month? No way.

Yes way. Between two regular quests, and as many one-shots as I could attend, I still spent more than a month on both levels 8 and 9. When one of the regular quests ended, it took even longer...

Still. I think, perhaps, if we made the length of time needed expand to 2 months/level with 6 hours of collective playtime a week to retain eligibility... That would cut down on abuse, as that's a lot of time to be spending online for an advancement on par with a slow leveler like myself.

I realise I might be coming off as a bit bitter about my slow advancement with Pyyran, reading over my posts. While, honestly, I'd be thrilled if he were level 20 already, I don't think that I'd have enjoyed the development as much if I'd been spirited along on levels.

The thing to think about it this: How do we reward good RPers without opening the path for those who just want a free ride?

If we can do that, the system has my full support and then some. If not... Then not.