The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on October 08, 2006, 06:21:20 am
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I have had this thought a number of times over the years (here and on other servers) and would like to hear your thoughts on it. The suggestion is to offer a "free" level per RL month.
The goal of such a policy is to maintain and encourage players with casual gaming playtimes to keep coming to Layonara. By "casual" I mean those that are able to play a couple of times a week for 10 to 15 hours.
Conditions to earn the level
[INDENT] 1. Player must reach level 5 on their own before getting their free level[INDENT] * This encourages the new players to go through the introduction quests, which often are there to give a feel for the world.
[/INDENT]2. The level number is based upon the number of months eligible, not the PC's current level[INDENT] * After first month, PC is eligible for free bump to 6th level. After second month of eligibility, 7th level. And so on.
* After three months, the PC would be 8th level. After one year, the PC would be 17th level. After two years 29th level.
* It is likely that PCs will be ahead of this curve often until higher, more difficult to attain, levels.
[/INDENT]3. Player may only have two PCs active[INDENT] * Any more indicates they are not focusing on the development of a single PC
* Only one of the PCs may earn the level per month. If they have two PCs, only one of them would be allowed to receive the level per month.
[/INDENT]4. The PC to get the level must be played six hours per week for a total of 24 hours per month.[INDENT] * This number would reflect what the team thinks a reasonable amount of playtime is.
* The 24 hours should be spread out over the month, not on a single weekend.
* Six hours would represent a reasonable, but dedicated, amount of playing time
[/INDENT]5. The levels would be by calendar month[INDENT] * This is to make it easier for the GM team to manage
* I imagine a system where PC names were entered into a DB table outside the game when they are eligible. The PC would then "use" an altar in Hlint to get the level.
[/INDENT]6. A CDT must be kept and updated weekly for the PC by the player[INDENT] * It can be brief and should indicate what they did that week in terms of RP, CNR, quests, and bashing.
* It should list their hours played, though this would be verified outside the game by server logs.
* Thread must be entitled "PC Name - Level Eligibility" for easy spotting by GM team (eg. "Bumblebee - Level Eligibility")[/INDENT][/INDENT]Arguments against the system I can foresee:[INDENT] 1. Levels should be earned by getting XP from quests and bashing! [INDENT] * What about the RPers that add depth to the world? What about the basher that can only play a limited amount of time? What about the players that cannot make it to GM quests often? More players is a good thing for the server. The rules surrounding this system means these players are here consistently, use the forums, and are invested in staying with their PC and with Layonara.
[/INDENT]3. I worked hard to get to my level, they should have to too! [INDENT] * We all work hard at our PCs. Play times differ, playing styles differ, definitions of success differ. After three months of playing under this system a PC would be 8th level. Does that seem like a lot?
[/INDENT]4. It will be a burden on the GM team.[INDENT] * Yes, this is my largest concern. The only piece really necessary, though, is a table with the number of hours played by a PC per week, the number of PCs played in that time, and a link to the PC's CDT level eligibility thread.
[/INDENT]5. Why are you suggesting this system, don't you have a successful PC? [INDENT] * I am suggesting this system out of my own frustration. I play many, many hours but find it very difficult to gain XP in the quantities necessary to level. I am constantly having to make the choice of RPing versus going out to get XP.
* My playtime, though copious, does not overlap many quests. The primary source of XP for me is bashing. I keep a sparse CDT thread. It is sparse mostly because I don't interact with GMs on quests and the record there is for my own benefit, not theirs.
* Bumblebee has been around for six months. Under this system he would be eligible for 11th level. He is currently 30k XP away from that level right now. I can normally get around 15k XP per day from bashing with others. Alternating days of bashing with RP means a total of four RL days to that level. That's about 20 hours of playtime for me. For those of you fortunate enough to be able to go on quests, that 30k comes from one three hour quest.
[/INDENT][/INDENT]Pros[INDENT] * Keep players even during periods when playtime is limited.
- Avoid discouragement as the higher levels come
[/INDENT]
Cons[INDENT] * More work for GM team
[/INDENT]I beg of you, do not turn this thread into a diatribe on the benefits of RPing over XP. Please give the pros and cons of the system described, offer new tweaks to it, shortcomings, and alternatives. My sincere thanks will then be yours in abundance.
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my input to this would be, from my experiance takeing so long to level up allows the person to get to learn his spells to the best ability, for example when i leveld up to 10 with my bard i lost a large chunk of my soloing ability by looseing a decent summon for a decent spell, and the time its taken me to get almost to level 11 ive learnt to use him without summons, players need to learn how to use their class to its full potential with these long levels.
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Pen, there are some that choise to take that long to level. I did with Q, I wanted him to be known. I can see were you are comming from. Not a bad idea. For some that come here to RP and ont travle much, it would reward the RPing.
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@crazedgoblin -- Your PC Jamesan was approved in March, so by this system he would be eligible for 10th level (assuming you met the requirements). Looking on LORE indicates he's currently 10th level. Edit: Bad math on my part; Jamesan would be eligible for 12th level.
@Grid Blader -- The system is not required to be used, of course. Not being forced to go bash may allow a PC to actually become better known. Both valid points, thanks.
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I played on a server that had Trainers for each class.They were PCs themselves.Kinda like WLs.The Trainers assigned a task to the person that they had to complete.Weither it was RP or combat was up to the Trainer.If the player didnt complete the task or died they had to wait another time limit.
The Trainer had an Orb in their inventory kinda like the WL rod.
This server also had a time limit per lv.
1-3 no limit
4-6 every 2days
7-9 once a week
10+ once a month
Lv 12 was max on this server.
I had a Cleric there that was a trainer and it took over a year and a half to get there.
Trainer(WLs) had to get their lv up from a DM
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Under the system, assuming I didn't make any XP (and seeing how I made level 5 with Pyyran in that first month), Pyyran would be level 17.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that, but if I had spent more time on Pyyran, and put more effort towards it, he might be that level now. Then again, under the system, I'd not have put as much effort as I have into playing him the way he's been played. He might never have evolved into the Adventurer he is... *Shrugs.* Then again, he might've.
I have to say, though, that I, for one, would be a wee bit resentful of those who abused the system by logging on just long enough each week and month to get that level. There are those for whom the system would work as intended, but... The road to abuse is clear, wide, and easy.
Then again, as one of the people who spent significantly more than a month for the majority of the levels my primary character's picked up, I'm probably rather biased.
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@Stephen -- How do you envision abuse? They would only be allowed to have two PCs, and only one would be eligible to earn the level per month each month. Would you really feel resentment towards a player that got to 12th level after seven months? I purposefully tried to keep the abuse factor out of this system.
@Force of Will -- Did the system work well? What were the drawbacks of it?
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I think the pressure on the DM team would be too great. Either, they have to monitor everyone (takes lots of time) or they don't (might... or... rather... will be abused).
It's a very great idea, but I don't think it would work in practice.
Edit: The abusive factor is simply to have one primary "normal" character and a second "free level up" character (until the second character reaches a high enough "powerful/fun" level).
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Weebs has it.
For example, I could've kept Cynn around... She was created, what, eight months ago? So, let's assume I made level 5 within a month; that's seven levels. I could've played Pyyran, and got on to RP as Cynn every now and again, and just had Cynn accrue levels this way. She'd be equal to Pyyran by now, and would probably have already made the shift to Weapon Master. That would be a level twelve character who got past the AGONIZING stretch of 8-11 in just three months with minimal playtime, something I'd otherwise have to do some serious powergaming to accomplish (something I'm not very good at, I should add. ;) ) Or spend every waking hour on quests... Which would admittedly be about eight pounds of fun.
However, I wouldn't have had to put nearly as much work into Cynn as I have with Pyyran. I can see perhaps doing this for those with just one active character, but...
"Leapfrogging" it would be an easy way to level.
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I see the trend here (and on IRC) is that the players would abuse the suggested system. So instead of encouraging players to play, even if only for a few sessions per week, it would encourage players to find a way to have a PC ready to play when they're uber enough. Sad, really. Even Stephen's post above suggests that leveling is "agonizing" and yet it is the thought of the abusive players that most impacts any solution to this.
I wonder, though, how much of a negative impact would a 20th level after 15 months have versus a 20th level after four months. Who really cares? I am naieve, I suppose, in thinking I would rather encourage the good apples to stay rather than prevent the bad apples from abusing. (I realize it is much more complicated than that and I fully appreciate the chore the GM team has to squelch the nonsense we players come up with to get ahead.)
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20th level after 4 months is quite rapid leveling, and as we all know, speaks of power-leveling vs. RPing. What's the difference? The 20th level that takes 15 months to hit that point (about what it took me, incidentally) is more in keeping with the world's spirit than the one who rushes up to 20th in 4 months. There is no harm for someone reaching 20th in 15 months...none at all. That's actually behind the curve in the old expectations, where 20th level in 1 year was the target and the minimum. But then the assumption is that if one attains a level, they've earned that level. This is an eternal pitfall of level-based systems like this; the unfortunate thing is, one does not improve as, say, a wizard by sitting around on benches in some small town. About the only class that would help is a bard, realistically speaking. XP reflects doing, not sitting.
Crafting is an example of getting XP for doing, and potentially RPing, but which does not fit into the overall scheme of a particular class. It would take a lot to level a character through crafting alone. It would in fact just simply take far too long. Is the character being idle? No. Is he/she learning and gaining experience? Absolutely. But being good at tinkering does not make a person a better cleric, for example.
The most obvious avenue of abuse here is for someone to log on, park their character somewhere and do nothing for 6 hours a week (wouldn't be too difficult). The second most obvious avenue is someone who goes out and grinds for XP...or even quests for XP...on a regular basis AND gets the freebie.
One other thing I'd like to point out....
Quest XP given by GMs is rewarded on a sliding scale depending on one's level for each hour of quest time, and each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested, it would become better to not quest and just chat in Hlint than it would be to go out and quest.
We surely don't want to speed up leveling, in my opinion.
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Dorganath - 10/8/2006 12:59 PM
*smiles* I was waiting for my visit from Dorganath. I get called to the principle's office often as the two of us play contrarians. :-)
20th level after 4 months is quite rapid leveling, and as we all know, speaks of power-leveling vs. RPing. What's the difference? The 20th level that takes 15 months to hit that point (about what it took me, incidentally) is more in keeping with the world's spirit than the one who rushes up to 20th in 4 months. There is no harm for someone reaching 20th in 15 months...none at all. That's actually behind the curve in the old expectations, where 20th level in 1 year was the target and the minimum. But then the assumption is that if one attains a level, they've earned that level. This is an eternal pitfall of level-based systems like this; the unfortunate thing is, one does not improve as, say, a wizard by sitting around on benches in some small town. About the only class that would help is a bard, realistically speaking. XP reflects doing, not sitting.
XP reflects doing only because we don't get XP for RP here in significant quantities. You admit there are situations where we do give XP for RP, right?GM quests that areRP focused, WLs in recognition of players, to name two.Layonara is denoted as an"RP server." Should an asterick be added that says, "This is an RP serverbut you don't get any XP for doing that; XP is for doing."No, that would be a poor message I suspect.
Crafting is an example of getting XP for doing, and potentially RPing, but which does not fit into the overall scheme of a particular class. It would take a lot to level a character through crafting alone. It would in fact just simply take far too long. Is the character being idle? No. Is he/she learning and gaining experience? Absolutely. But being good at tinkering does not make a person a better cleric, for example.
XP reflects doing only because we don't get XP for RP here in significant quantities. Should there be a reward for a well-RPed rogue tinker? What about a cleric that doesn't leave town but spreads the word of his god? Why shouldn't we get XP for the "experience" of RPing?
The most obvious avenue of abuse here is for someone to log on, park their character somewhere and do nothing for 6 hours a week (wouldn't be too difficult). The second most obvious avenue is someone who goes out and grinds for XP...or even quests for XP...on a regular basis AND gets the freebie.
You might have misunderstood me: You do not get a free level based upon PC level, but basedentirely upon number of months. A 15th level PC after four months would only be eligible for a bump to 9th level. The 15th level PC would have to wait six months without a level to catch up.
One other thing I'd like to point out....
Quest XP given by GMs is rewarded on a sliding scale depending on one's level for each hour of quest time, and each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested, it would become better to not quest and just chat in Hlint than it would be to go out and quest.
I would love to quest. This system is for those that can't enjoy the benefits of such.
We surely don't want to speed up leveling, in my opinion.
I think in the first paragraph you indicate that 20th level after 15 months, which is based upon my originally stated formula of a lever per month, is a fine progression. I'm not sure I understand how that speeds up leveling.
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What bout the people who...
Cant make quest times?
Cant devote 2 to 6+ solid hours in front of their PC?
Dont know the people involved with the CDQ, or WL so they are not welome?
Its the 4th month of a 6 RL month on going quest and they arent allowed in (and franlky wouldnt know what is going on anyway) ?
..And dont want to go grind hours on end killing everything that yeilds good EXP reguardless of it makes RP sense or not...
What about those people?
Their has been a lack of small one timer quests recently... not that I really have anything against series quests... im sure for those who make them they are beyond amazing... but for the those sitting on the sidelines watching all these series quests, invite only quests etc etc... we are left where we are in level... or forced to take other means to try and advance our characters.
People ARE going to abuse ANY sytem that is in place, and the part that makes me sick to my stomach is how the entire world has to suffer because of them.
I like the principal of the idea mentioned here... Though I will not say if its time frame is right or wrong... Just saying I like the general idea.
Lets give people something... yes its going to be abused by some!... but they are already abusing everything else! That's what I think my wild ramblings are trying to say... instead of taking all these steps to put the brakes on the minority... lets give the majority something to smile about... instrad of just watching the power gamers make laps around us.
G-452
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Very good arguements both Pro and Cons for this idea.
I might have missed something.....so bare with me.
I understand the whole leveling up per month.....but as we know....once you get beyond level 10....it may take a lot longer to hit level 11.....and so on and so forth. Perhaps the time frame could be expanded once certain levels are hit....ie...13th level requires 2 months to pass (for the extra AttackperRound).....beyond 18th requires 3 months.
But on a personal note, I like the idea of having to "work" to get your character higher. Not grinding XP....but questing, RPing and such.Kind of destroys the achievements of those high lvl chars who came before us.
But of course... aint my choice...down to L and the community. But still.....good idea. Which is what makes this place great.
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Dorganath - 10/8/2006 12:59 PM
each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested,
We surely don't want to speed up leveling, in my opinion.
Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 1:43 PM
I think in the first paragraph you indicate that 20th level after 15 months, which is based upon my originally stated formula of a lever per month, is a fine progression. I'm not sure I understand how that speeds up leveling.
Take a look at Dorganath's numbers. If a level takes, say, 45 quest-hours, that comes out to 15 3-hour sessions, which could take 4 months (one quest per week). 2 3-hour quests a week would take 2 months, and isn't impossible for those with plenty of play time. Only people who live on Layonara can make 4 quests a week and cover 45 quest-hours in a month, but only if there are enough quests available. With only a 24-hour requirement to qualify for a level, your system halves the in-game hour requirement (24 rather than 45) and potentially quarters the months it takes to level (one level in one month rather than one level in four months). I think that's what Dorg means about speeding up leveling.
I'm aware that doesn't cover bashing XP, and I can sympathize with the players whose characters would rather not kill everything that glows red, since doing so means breaking character just for the OOC concept of XP.
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Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 12:43 PM Dorganath - 10/8/2006 12:59 PM
*smiles* I was waiting for my visit from Dorganath. I get called to the principle's office often as the two of us play contrarians. :-)
*chuckles* :)
The most obvious avenue of abuse here is for someone to log on, park their character somewhere and do nothing for 6 hours a week (wouldn't be too difficult). The second most obvious avenue is someone who goes out and grinds for XP...or even quests for XP...on a regular basis AND gets the freebie.
You might have misunderstood me: You do not get a free level based upon PC level, but based entirely upon number of months. A 15th level PC after four months would only be eligible for a bump to 9th level. The 15th level PC would have to wait six months without a level to catch up.
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You are correct. I did misunderstand.
One other thing I'd like to point out....
Quest XP given by GMs is rewarded on a sliding scale depending on one's level for each hour of quest time, and each character level works out to around 40-50 hours of GM-driven quests. A 24-hour requirement per month to be elligible for a free level is about twice as fast as that. I realize numbers can be tuned, but given the minimums suggested, it would become better to not quest and just chat in Hlint than it would be to go out and quest.
I would love to quest. This system is for those that can't enjoy the benefits of such.
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This still does not address the fact that your proposed minimums far exceed those benefits of GM-driven quests. To be honest, I see that as the biggest weakness in this plan. Ideally, the fastest way to level would be attending a lot of quests each month. In general, this is true, but sadly, "strategic" bashing can produce more XP faster. RP is difficult to define, and can span from the best-played, deepest and most believeable character to the guy who just sits on a bench for hours watching the world go by. The former may deserve a level each month, while the latter deserves to get the bill for bench maintenance.
I'm all for a way to reward RP. The pitfall here is that is also rewards sloth.
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Not sure how to respond to the thought that those that go on quests deserve to level faster than the rest of us. I suppose there are those that don't like quests but that's not the feeling I get from reading all the posts asking for more quests or bemoaning the fact they cannot make them. I also suppose that some are able to make enough quests that they feel no XP pressure. Do you think those that make quests would level more slowly than one level per month? No way.
The real question is, is there a way to support and encourage those of us that 1) do not make quests, and 2) are not powergamers. Perhaps I'm just a minority here and generally clueless. Don't think so, though.
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Pen, I am one of those few that can't make it to the quests as I am in NZ. However there I do believe that there are more spontaneous quests from the DMs. Something perfect for BumbleBee! :)
Spontaneous quests that happen and complete that time are great. I have been on one, and I hope that the DM's are going to gear that up. Its what makes Layonara truly immersive.
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Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 5:54 PM Not sure how to respond to the thought that those that go on quests deserve to level faster than the rest of us. I suppose there are those that don't like quests but that's not the feeling I get from reading all the posts asking for more quests or bemoaning the fact they cannot make them. I also suppose that some are able to make enough quests that they feel no XP pressure. Do you think those that make quests would level more slowly than one level per month? No way.
The real question is, is there a way to support and encourage those of us that 1) do not make quests, and 2) are not powergamers. Perhaps I'm just a minority here and generally clueless. Don't think so, though.
Oh, I'm not saying that people who go on quests "deserve" to level quicker than people who don't particularly those who also do not tend to go out "bashing". The implication there is that quests are more about RP than XP, and that ideally, the choice of people to RP would be preferable, not only because it gives XP but also because of the RP. That's what I'm saying.
As for how quickly one might level in a month....I can say from some experience that it still takes several quests per week in order to level inside of a month with no other sources of XP. Someone who makes 1-2 quests per week (such as those who can only make quests on weekends), say 4-6 hours each, would take about 2 months to level, give or take.
Despite what you may think, I do appreciate what you're saying here and what you're trying to do.
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Pen N Popper - 10/8/2006 6:54 PM
Do you think those that make quests would level more slowly than one level per month? No way.
Yes way. Between two regular quests, and as many one-shots as I could attend, I still spent more than a month on both levels 8 and 9. When one of the regular quests ended, it took even longer...
Still. I think, perhaps, if we made the length of time needed expand to 2 months/level with 6 hours of collective playtime a week to retain eligibility... That would cut down on abuse, as that's a lot of time to be spending online for an advancement on par with a slow leveler like myself.
I realise I might be coming off as a bit bitter about my slow advancement with Pyyran, reading over my posts. While, honestly, I'd be thrilled if he were level 20 already, I don't think that I'd have enjoyed the development as much if I'd been spirited along on levels.
The thing to think about it this: How do we reward good RPers without opening the path for those who just want a free ride?
If we can do that, the system has my full support and then some. If not... Then not.
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There is just one fundamentally flawed argument in this whole deal.
First of all, Layonara is an announced RP server, in reality however we all know that it is an RP server with a lot of action involved, where RP is very encouraged and expected of the community. But still allowing for the prime way of advancement to be action and the many quests that are ran in the world.
Now, I'm not naive. I know that there is a quest problem in that far too many series are being ran, far too many CDQs/WLDQs are being ran, and far too many "by-invite only" quests. This is a current issue with the calendar and one that all DMs are fairly aware of and trying to address. The number of impromptu quests and single session quests is beginning to rise and will rise even more so as the new DMs get into their proper pants. And they will start running more, and then eventually start running series for a new batch of players, and eventually some people will move onto other things and we'll get new DMs to replace that need.
This thing is cyclical.
We as DMs try to strike a balance and I can assure you that Leanthar is very aware of this issue and constantly encouraging people to not run so many close ended quests when possible. Bottomline is however, DMs have to have fun as well, and if they are forced to run a quota of "whatever" type of quests, there wont be a happy DM crew, I can assure you that as well.
With that said however, I think the thought behind your system is fundamentally flawed. Advancement through levels has a very mechanical aspect attached to it. You need to DO stuff in order to LEARN stuff. We cannot, in no manner whatsoever, put a measuring stick on the different concepts of RPing, and much like dorganath said above, someone's concept of RPing might be the ultimate form of theatrical display, and some might just be talking and chatting to people while RPing situations. There's no way we should ever ever fall into judging who is doing better, but ultimately the second does not qualify for the mechanical aspects of level advancement.
How does someone talking and being a member of the chatting community of the Hlint benches learns how to channel the power of the weave into an arrow and make it magically enhanced? You don't, that's how. And in order to keep a balanced field for everyone we have two means which are the best way to get XP. Which are, Quests and Adventuring. With slowly more systems coming into place to encourage advancement and with bonus perks here and there to keep the mood up and encourage roleplaying.
This system doesn't encourage roleplaying, this system you're proposing is an entire rework on level advancement in this type of online game.
It is unfortunate that you can't or don't want to join quests. I'm sure that there are reasons for this both personal and administrative. In the end we can't aim to please everyone with what their view of level progression should be. It's just the nature of the game.
With all that I've said above... there is one thing that I really don't agree with you here. You say that Bumblebee has been played for about 6 months and he is level 11ish or 10 and almost there. He is quite fine for the time he has been played for and his advancement. So I'm not entirely sure where the issue is and why you think that there is a problem then.
And as a final addendum, if your concern is that ultimately you want to RP and be rewarded for it. Isn't roleplaying the reward for that sort of mentality in the first place? Do you really need to be level 55 in order to RP properly? That might just be a pet peeve of mine, but it sounds to me that if you're already able to do what you like to do and there is nothing stoping you from doing so, why does it need to be adjusted?
*shrugs*
There are a lot of things that Layo needs to make it a better place, and we're working on it. However, this I don't think is one of its problems.
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No I dont need to be a higher level to write a newsletter. Seeing as how all the rewards of the world are level based, I suppose I should just not want to participate in them? He'll never be a World Leader. He'll never sneak or evesdrop better than he does now. He'll never disable a trap that he can't already. He'll never use some of the many interesting items that can be found. Yes, it is absolutely true I do not need another level to remain exactly where I am.
You mention that no one should be put in a position to judge RP in general. The system I suggested does just that. Does all the information gathering, sneaking, evesdropping, and such not make me a better rogue? Are three hours of a monk RPing meditating and speaking on philosophical topics meaningless? How about three hours of bow practice on a combat dummy? How about three hours of discussion on the Hlint benches regarding deities? I'm not sure I want to be judged.
The fact is I spend far too much, in my opinion, having Bumblebee learn how to fight giants and far too little time having him learn how to evesdrop. One grants XP, the other is just fun.
Obviously I have given this topic some thought; perhaps too much. For the record, I check the calendar daily for quests in the hopes that I can join one.
Edit: I realize this has degenerated to be about me and that was not my intent. My PC wouldn't actually gain anything through the system except going forward. I was more thinking of players with much less playtime then myself, thatview leveling as an indicator of success, and that would enjoy RPing in this fine community with us a couple of times a week.
I'll not comment on the topic further. The idea is there to stand or fall on its own merits.
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I like the idea. But that is probally because I fall into that catagory. Been here over 2 years with Cole Etinfall and am still lvl 14. I have never spent more than a few weeks away at one time. And it is very rare that I do not log in to play at least once every two days. I do not like going out and bashing, it just feels fake to me. I like story driven quests but I can not guarentee that I can be on every thursday at 9pm. I definitly can't stay on a quest until 4am. I come across someone I helped get the rat king a few months ago and they are now helping me not die a horrible death somewhere. I like that I have been here this long, I like that I am loyal to Layonara. But it does get hard to act young and still learning with characters that have been here for 6 months. That is probally just bad rp on my part.
I believe a system like this would help me in this situation. Question is how many like me are out there? I think more people make lvl 14 in less than six months than not. That means we are in the minority and the gm and devolopers will be making a system for a few. Good idea though. I am glad you actually proposed this instead of just feeling left out and doing nothing about it, like me. Well thought out and propesed in a way that is helpful.
Thanks Pen N Popper.
Etin
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... rise even more so as the new DMs get into their proper pants.
My pants are just fine thank you. ;P
I intend to spend all of my GMing time for some period addressing this exact need. Running spontaneous quests, running short one off quests, and giving out RP xp.
So this statement is definitely true:
This is a current issue with the calendar and one that all DMs are fairly aware of and trying to address.
I also agree that it is cyclical. I remember times when there were many spontaneous quests and short one off sessions. I also remember a time before that when there were mostly series'.
A system similar to this one that I saw work pretty well was a timed xp system. When you toggled the system on you gained N xp every Y minutes. The number was low and you stopped recieving xp if you became idle (not moving not talking) for 2x the time period (2Y minutes.) You also recieved 0 xp for any kills made while you had timed xp on. Also once you turned it on, it was on for the next four hours and you couldn't turn it off. This prevented the exploit of bashing for xp, then turning it on everytime you stopped bashing then turning it off when you went to bash again. It was a pretty abuse free system. I -tried- to abuse the system because I was skeptical that any timed xp system wouldn't be ripe for abuse and I found the features I listed above (the system wasn't documented) and it worked pretty well. You got some xp, but less than half the xp you would get from bashing in a decent party and a bit more xp than you could get soloing.
Anyway, I hope this issue can be resolved to a satisfactory degree as new DMs come in and hopefully more short or spontaneous quests are run and more rp xp is given out, I just wanted to inform about the timed xp system I'd seen before.
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Etinfall - 10/8/2006 11:12 PM Question is how many like me are out there? I think more people make lvl 14 in less than six months than not. That means we are in the minority and the gm and devolopers will be making a system for a few. Good idea though. I am glad you actually proposed this instead of just feeling left out and doing nothing about it, like me. Well thought out and propesed in a way that is helpful. Thanks Pen N Popper. Etin
I, for one, am like you. I have played one character, Klaug, for 20 months and hehas just reachedlevel 17.
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Guardian 452 - 10/8/2006 2:34 PM What bout the people who... Cant make quest times? Cant devote 2 to 6+ solid hours in front of their PC? Dont know the people involved with the CDQ, or WL so they are not welome? Its the 4th month of a 6 RL month on going quest and they arent allowed in (and franlky wouldnt know what is going on anyway) ? ..And dont want to go grind hours on end killing everything that yeilds good EXP reguardless of it makes RP sense or not... What about those people? Their has been a lack of small one timer quests recently... not that I really have anything against series quests... im sure for those who make them they are beyond amazing... but for the those sitting on the sidelines watching all these series quests, invite only quests etc etc... we are left where we are in level... or forced to take other means to try and advance our characters. People ARE going to abuse ANY sytem that is in place, and the part that makes me sick to my stomach is how the entire world has to suffer because of them. I like the principal of the idea mentioned here... Though I will not say if its time frame is right or wrong... Just saying I like the general idea. Lets give people something... yes its going to be abused by some!... but they are already abusing everything else! That's what I think my wild ramblings are trying to say... instead of taking all these steps to put the brakes on the minority... lets give the majority something to smile about... instrad of just watching the power gamers make laps around us. G-452
I totaly agree with your post, just 3 days ago i was looking for a quest to join and most of them were either on invitation only or closed to the people that where there the last time.. It's kinda hard to get into making your character known and integrated in to the development of the world if you cant attend the quest. There was one that I could hae atteneded at 6 am edt but then again I woork 4 hours later so it wouldnt make sence to join up a quest to leave it in what could possibly b the middle part and interesting part of it.
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Warning: this is a long ramble and it's like 8 in the morning (pre-sleep!). Confusion and tired eyes may result.
Questing XP is different from sitting-around XP. I know the time where my character was a good example of the latter is long past and forgotten and she's now seen as an overbearing epic for the most part, but there was a point where she spent all of her time doing nothing but chatting with people (levels made no difference) and throwing stinkbombs and greaseballs from the top of the courthouse.
Are the levels I gained around that time different from the later ones? At the risk of offending those who prefer to level while sitting around, absolutely yes. I don't think gossiping XP should be given near the rate of adventuring XP. I had a huge amount of fun with Acacea and had no limits based on level regarding who I could or could not hang out with (something that became less true the higher level I got), and my roleplay was rewarded with roleplaying rewards, not adventuring XP. I'd be much more inclined to toss out levels for free if one could take them in Commoner.
If I could have advanced my Gather Info, Lore, and Prank skills separately from leveling then I would have been much more interested in being 'compensated' for my time.
When I finally decided to try out questing, I dove in headfirst. I went on Milo quests, Pan quests, Storm quests, Dezza quests, Lonnarin quests, Vyris quests, Rhiz quests. There were some heavy level jumps over the period of several months and a few of those less than happy with me cried foul--in one breath complaining that I went on too many quests, and in the next wondering loudly how I was levelling so fast, despite that each answered the other.
Do I think they should have been more spread out, pushing some of those back to where she had even more 24/7 Hlint time than Ozy? No... Her quest levels were gained with blood, sweat, and tears, so to speak. From goblin raids to missions into Roldem, corruption in Velensk, the Mount of Sorrows, Rakshasa diseases, mindflayers, gnomish time machines, pre-cataclysmic remains of races or languages or civilations, facing down the Soul Mother-- do I think there was a difference in my quest levels and what would be my idling levels? Yes!
It's not discrimination or oppression or not wanting the non-questers to feel like they can progress. Nor am I failing to see that this suggestion is based on months. It's just the obvious fact that there is no separation between what you want to call roleplay-levels and adventure-levels mechanically, when I feel that there should be, especially when considering things like this.
I didn't intend for this post to be a rant, but while many repeatedly say they are discouraged by x and y, I get repeatedly discouraged by how many people ignore whichever rewards they have--people who bash their way to high levels get disgruntled that they don't have roleplaying influence and power where someone else their level or less does, someone who hasn't spent nearly as much time questing in x area is angry that someone is in a higher position than them here, someone who spends their time achieving such roleplay-only positions wonder why all the bashy people get the levels, the poor complain about the rich and the rich that there aren't enough items to spend their money on, lower levels complain that high levels get all the quests, high levels try to remember the last time they were on one.
This isn't a rant directed at a single person, and not the original poster--it's more of a vague hope that instead of wishing for a bigger island, coinpurse, or level, people would find interesting ways to completely take advantage of what they have.
I have seen systems like these also, similar to the sort Talan mentioned except it was something you chose at character creation--you chose at the beginning, for all time, whether you would gain XP by kills, or by per time spent in game. Idling didn't count there, either, but the time-spent route would likely end up being a bit slower...which I don't mind. I don't mind having the choice, I just think the difference should be clear.
As I said, I don't mind things like this, honestly, and I don't mean to come across like I want everyone to stay level 2 for all time. I just get grumpy when the general impression I get from a thread or IRC comment is "I can only come on two hours a week and spend that time talking, but that should be considered the same as x y and z so we all have the same opportunity!" Because it's not the same. This is not me saying "I don't ever want something like this in place," but me saying that going into it with the argument that they should be equal is just false, and systems should not be adjusted with that goal in mind.
So, I am not against trying to make things a good time for people, or accomodate different playing styles. I just want to strongly suggest careful consideration of the mindset one is in when discussing desired changes, in as objective a way as possible.
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I understand where Pen N Popper is coming from, especially with Bumblebee. But on the otherhand, I somewhat dislike the idea of free experience for existing. With the World Leaders being able to grant RP exp now, perhaps that is the route in which Bumblebee can be rewarded for his RP. Quite frankly, I think Bumblebee has earned some RP experience from my few interactions with him.
I am one of the few/many (I don't know) that can't make many quests in this wonderful world. Due to RL responsibilities: Work 45+/wk, school 2 nights per week, wife and 14 month old daughter, misc. other things in life, I get very little time to play during "normal" questing hours. And as stated, with so many "series" quests going on, the few times I have been on when a quest is going to happen I have been denied because it is a series quest and I would be out of the loop, or it is too dangerous for me, or too much is at stake, etc.
I have had the opportunity to participate in 3 quest in the last 3 months or so. One of which I didn't really get to participate in due to having major modem issues that only allowed me on here and there during the quest and became way too frustrating for me and I am sure the DM/adventurers. The 2nd was more an impromptu quest that I happened to be available for. The 3rd was Cymeran Vrinn's CDQ which was put on at a time that worked for my normal play hours (10pm+ PST). I would love nothing more than to participate in many quests given the chance. It is a great change of pace, typically requires one to pay attention to details, think outside the box in some cases, respond with thought, etc. Plus you get to experience uncharted territories, fight monsters never before seen on Layonara by the normal traveler, and RP at a different level.
For now, Eredel, is a wandering wizard in search of knowledge. He gets plenty of exp. fighting off creatures he comes across in his travels and even finds places that are little known. (For example, a dungeon I found that was later traveled by a group of adventurers, many of which met their demise, based on Eredel describing the new found place to his traveling friend Cymeran)
And as stated, in other terms perhaps, crafting is a great way to gain experience. It is not like questing, or purely bashing of course, but it does allow for more RP. You also may require the assistance of other adventurers to acquire materials that are out of reach due to it being guarded by creatures beyond your means. But it does however, keep you busy, offer exp. in getting materials, experience and feeling of accomplishment when actually producing items you desire to make, provides for more RP in selling wares others may seek.
Lastly, of late, I have been traveling from time to time with Lillian, Ket...(the robust dwarf), and a few others at random into the Firesteep Mountains in search of Adimantium Ore. But for Eredel, these adventures are good for RP as well. When Akki (my favorite bard) comes along, she sings us songs to pass the time. Lillian talks of pie (which I have now). Ketilbourn (spelling), well he is colorful at the least, and fun to be around. Others I haven't gotten to know well enough yet, but it is a great opportunity to meet new adventurers and establish new friendships.
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It is clear from my interactions with Pen N Poopers characters, ‘Pig’ and “Bee’ that he is one of this server’s premier roleplayers. His characters are interesting, believable and well played, with excellent attention to detail and plenty of additional effort in adding value to the community as a whole.
That he would suggest such a system indicates that there is indeed an issue. This game should be fun and rewarding to play. It should not be frustrating for one of our premier players.
The simple answer would be to provide quests at all hours of the day and night, with a variety of durations and level requirements, so that all players get the enjoyment of being involved in the best part of the world; Questing. Attending a GM run adventure is a reward in itself for the fun involved. The additional experience awarded is a bonus.
However this is simply not possible. Most GMs have real-lives outside of Layo and provide Quests at times when they are not working/sleeping/eating/playing*. Being able to attend Quests is simply a matter of luck if your schedule/time-zone/sleep-pattern matches with that of one or more GMs.
Good roleplay should be rewarded. I believe this server is moving towards methods to do this. The introduction of the World Leader experience wands are a nice bonus and a pleasant surprise when someone provides a reward that was not looked for.
However the number of World Leaders in a time-slot/time-zone/ is directly proportional to the number of Quests in the time-slot, and the number of Quests in that time-slot. So many characters will never interact with a World Leader or go on quests.
With that in mind, I agree to the principle, that any attempt to roleplay should be rewarded. Pen N Poopers suggestion tries to reward involvement in the world, without judgement on the quality, at a rate less then that gained from killing monsters.
However, from the other responses it appears to be overly complicated, and disproportional generous for the world of Layonara. I don’t agree that the system is open to abuse. Those who would seek to benefit from the system are the power-levelling crowd, who would not likely have the patience for such a scheme.
However as an alternative, Talan’s suggestion appears to be a good option. The trick would be to select the numbers correctly for world of Layo. The rates selected should be far less then Quest experience and Adventuring** experience. As the server already has the hunger, thirst and cold scripts, an additional, ‘roleplay bonus’ script might also be added. As an alternative I suggest that the system be fully automated and discreet. Only activating after X1 minutes, and deactivating if experience is gained in any other way, (combat, crafting, quest, world leader wand), the rest would be similar to how Talan described. I would NOT be infavor of such a system if it added to the LAG of the server.
Talan, could you please start another Thread detailing the system you suggested, and the difficulty/ease to implement, as well as some on the appropriate numbers for Layonara.
Such a system would only be useful to the small minority of players/characters who prefer roleplay over Adventuring**. However, as some of these players are the servers best roleplayers***, it would be worthwhile to reward them in some way.
I personally enjoy Adventuring** with dialogue.
*Some GMs live breathe Layonara and do not exist in any form outside of this server.
** Adventuring: Killing things and taking their stuff.
*** There are a few that I know of, and I delighted as my characters surpassed them in level. Seriously, guys like Pen N Pooper, deserve something for the contribution they add to the world. Pen N Pooper isn’t the only one, but I won’t name them in fear of causing their heads to explode.
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I understand the request and why the request is coming. We will think about it some more as I do understand and feel for those that fall in this sort of category. But I want all of you to go back, with an open mind, with a mind of seeing the bigger picture, and read the post from Acacea. If you read with balance, all the different styles that come in to play, and just the overall bigger picture you will agree with what she stated and you will see the real problem of us having to 'react' to every style there is out there.
RP'ers we want to encourage and support, but I just don't know if there is a good way to do this as it is right now. One possible solution is the 'start a character and choose xp from bashing or xp by RP' sort of thing, I can see where that would work and I can see how we could have a system running to work with that sort of thing...but to combine both it is very difficult (pretty much impossible) to balance and get it right. That recommendation is actually not a bad idea. And we might be able to grandfather people in to it....*goes back to thinking*
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Leanthar, I really admire (honestly) your efforts in maintaining this world, as well as all the other DMs that offer up their hours, many without notice to players like myself. That is all.
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I read what acacea said and althought she wasnt pointing to anyone I jsut felt like saying that My post wasnt a rant or anything just a little disapointment that I am not able to attend some quest ot have fun with more people than the one I regularly rp with everyday.
Although I might have an idea that could maybe help with the quest.
What if WL could do quest that could be rewarded by them or later on by Gms?
This could make more quest available at diferent time zones and less urge on the gm to make more quest to supply the increasing demands.
I personaly think that unless all of the people gets to try out the choice of bashing xp or rp xp before hand, might be more of a headached than a solution. What if after some time, you see that your character is more suited for rp than just going bashing around, having choosed the bashing would prevent you to fully play what you character has become over time and vice versa. It could work if at some points you could chose to change what type of xp rewards you recieve.
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1) Your post just happened to be on top of mine, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to make more quests. As stated earlier, the current calendar IS an issue and is being worked on so that there will hopefully be a better range of open quests for people in different times, and a few that want to focus on spontaneous questing. As I mentioned on IRC, I also don't think there is anything wrong or even unusual in someone trying to think of how one's peaceful Aerdinite healing diplomat is going to progress if he can't make quests often and doesn't want to break character by killing everything that twitches red.
If such a system had ever been in place and I had the choice, my character (CG Lucindite (former Shadonite) rogue/bard) would receive no XP for kills, and would instead have slowly gained XP from her interactions, storytelling, swindling, and yes even bartending. ;) She gets much more out of those in terms of her best skills, than from slicing open demons...and much more out of quests than bartending and storytelling. So I do understand some characters feeling unsuited for bashing, in addition to simply not having time.
2) As for the WL quests, you can see in some-other-thread-that-I-can't-seem-to-load-right-now that it's not a new idea actually, and not a bad one, either. I know Triba wanted to do some dungeon scavenger hunt type things for people to do, and there are probably other WLs that have ideas on how to send unsuspecting victims out on a quest and be able to reward them for it.
3) Regarding it being a headache, all changes are headaches. It's just how it is. :) In this case, it should never be a choice between RP and bashing. This is an RP server, you take the RP with you when you go out adventuring. When you take a feat in your early levels, does it not cause you a headache when you realize you've outgrown it? It's a part of the progress and growth, and reasons to choose carefully. They would need good explanations and warnings, though.
In this case, since it's not implemented, you can try to foresee when such changes might occur. The system Talan observed was something that could be toggled every few hours, mine was chosen at creation for the rest of the character's life. In both cases, you no longer collected xp if you went idle for more than a few minutes.
I'm biased towards it being a very long term choice rather than an "I feel like gaining XP for chatting now," and instead considering it as a full time choice of how exactly your character best progresses. Perhaps at certain milestones in levels there could be an option to reconsider, in order to leave some small wiggle room for significant character changes. (Fighter becomes...bard?)
I think the odds of it going in are probably low at this point, but discussing how things can fit from more than one side rarely goes completely to waste (if it can be kept productive), as even if the idea is unused, the points brought up can be considered in later projects.
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Leanthar - 10/9/2006 8:18 PM
*goes back to thinking*
Uh oh...
*runs and hides*
;PP
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Acacea - 10/10/2006 2:44 AM ...perhaps at certain milestones in levels there could be an option to reconsider, ...
That's what i was thinking, like giving the oportunity to chage that system every 5 lvls untill lvl 15 would give the person a good time to feel how his character developped and at 15 then chose that lasting mention, or simply leave it at every 5 level for those ebuerundecider in life.
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Since making this post, I put aside my non-combat PC and dusted off Pig, a halfgiant fighter. He's 14th level and even with my ineptness at the game he can hold his own in most battles. While I intended to stick with bashing only, I just couldn't resist trying to get some things going for him RP-wise.
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looks to me like you found a great balance of RP and bashing. 325000 xp in 14 days (12 really) is great. You spent time on quests and in groups. I bet you had a lot of fun too.
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I think the point to remember is the number of hours spent playing, not the number of days. Sixty-nine hours could well be over a month for another player. I ranted about some of these points here (http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/114971-confessions-rper.html#post471980), too.
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Posting in the proper place.
This is for a sidebar in the discussion, revolving around the idea of Level-A-Month.
It's been suggested that the LaM thing be togglable at major levels... And that, of course, one wouldn't get any XP for killing things. One would get XP for DM quests, though, and for spontaneous RP XP handed out by DMs and WLs...
So. It occurred to me.
At level one, you get an item that you "Use", that sets whether or not you are going to progress via Adventuring or via LaM through a conversation. After that, you don't get another until level five, then ten, then fifteen, then twenty, and so on and so forth. (Though it could just be for blocks of ten levels, or whatever.) If you set that you'll get XP via Adventuring, it works just like it does, now. If you set that you'll get XP via LaM, then you keep the item (which affects XP as described below), but you're not allowed to A) enter the world or B) actually progress to the next level until you've gone through the convo. (Edit: Also, to prevent abuse, i.e. going Adventuring then selecting LaM late to accrue more XP, the convo would auto-set the character's XP to the start of whatever level, plus however much over the very last XP gain was.)
Let's assume you set LaM. Okay, so you don't get any XP from kills. Sure. But can't people still make loads of XP from crafting? Well... At lower crafting levels, sure! And in certain crafts, like Enchanting. So... How about eliminating getting Adventuring XP from crafting with LaM? XP would still accrue for the craft, but not as an Adventurer. Or, perhaps simply reduce it so that the character receives half the XP they would otherwise get from crafting. They would still receive XP normally from quests and WL/DM XP.
When their month was up, they're awarded the amount of XP that it would take them to progress from the start of their current level to the start of their next level. This could also, perhaps, be automated.
Now, let's take Eric the Generic Cleric. He chooses LaM at level one and spends a portion of every day making potions. Before a month has passed, Eric is level two in adventuring, just from Enchanting! But at the end of his first month, Eric still only gets enough XP to take him from level one to level two (I believe 2k XP). Six months later, Eric is level nine, as he's attended a few quests and stayed on the LaM track, not to mention continued in his Enchanting.
Let's compare this to Cronk, the Half-orc Monk. Now, Cronk chooses Adventuring at level one, and goes all the way with that. He earns XP just like everyone does, now, and stays just as active as Eric. But, depending on his activity, he could also be between levels 6 and 9.
The crux of this system is the assumption that the average career Adventurer makes enough XP in each calendar month to earn one character level.
Now, the system described above would make for levelling much quicker than the previous application of LaM (i.e. only eligible for a boost to 9th level on your 9th month)...
But I'm interested to hear thoughts.
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What do you think, could this work now in the lower player population?
I'd love to see some of my old comrades be able to come back and revive their legacy. Sometimes RL catches up and squashes the time one can spend online. Personally, I'd like to see famous characters hanging out in Center for a few hours a week and interacting with the world.
Would it really detract from the server if players just naturally gained levels over time? With level-per-month it would take three years for a PC to reach 40th. I vote that's a win if we get a player to be online for three years.
Pretty please?
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As an added note, I'll use myself as an example:
Given that I could only pick one PC to apply the level-per-month to, which would I chose?
On the one hand, Honeybee deserves levels! She is an honestly played pacifist cleric, devoted to harvest and food. She (and her player) would prefer if she never left Center but was there 24/7 to interact and tease whispered tales out of passerby. She doesn't really "need" levels but it begins to feel a bit stagnant if your role is just PC town crier. A level-per-month would feel very satisfying. Maybe she'd be able to collect bodak teeth herself someday! Or cherries! Is it really necessary to grind her for OOC XP?
Now there's Dubbel, the half-giant thunder machine! He's the one that needs levels! It's a low player count server and being able to solo and explore would be fun! Would be great to "tank" for groups too. Perhaps I get him online for a few adventures per week all the while knowing that whether he runs point down Haven or plays mop-up in the Rift, he's going to get stronger. Would certainly free me up to RP with him more, rather than just chose max-XP adventures.
Maybe they both deserve a level-per-month? Maybe it's the player that deserves it, not the PC.
I don't know but there must be a way to make the five hour per week players feel successful too. Remember, even after gaining 30th level on their three year anniversary, they still are only 30th level for five hours a week. You're saying that will cramp your style? Bah!
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I like your points; they have validity. And, in fact, the long delayed MMO has this in mind, as we have long thought of providing means of advancement for skills outside of in-game time. As far as something like this being implemented in the NWN incarnation of Layo, I doubt it. That said, I'd love it if we had a quest series for every day of the week, and every player could at least play in one series (so a quest a week), and attendance of between 4-8 quests would result in a level (so, between 16 and 32 hours of quest time). To me, that would be ideal.
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I find the idea interesting. You will, however, not be able to support this for GMT players. It's hard enough to find people for CDQs or events that you can actually participate (And to all GMs out there who make it happen: THANK YOU SO MUCH!). I'd like to apply myself, that would only be the most responsible thing to do, but I don't think I fit the skills needed.
We need players. As simple as that.
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It has nothing to do with timezones or GMs. Just being online and doing stuff (whatever stuff) is great! You deserve reward for playing and being there for others.
Edit: Sorry, didn't realize you were replying to previous post and not the thread. I agree, and always have though, that progression through GM quests is not something everyone is able to enjoy.
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Reputation? Infamy? Involvement (which might or might not require a GM)? Trues? Experience? What kind of reward are you speaking of?
Timezones matter. They do. Else I could play with a lot more players and GMs. And not all stuff is great to do. Sometimes it's just crafting/collecting to get that fancy new item you always wanted for your character. It's more interesting to write a CDT about it then actually doing it.
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To try and bring this away from the timezone stuff (which seems like abit of a drift even if I support Aphel in this): There is a system that can be used as a template to create something similar that basically gets assigned to characters or logins. It gives you a set amount of xp every set period of time (controlled by GMs) for interacting with the environment. Standing about doing nothing or not typing anything results in no delivery. But it also means combat and the occasional line every set period of time grants the xp.
Overall, if implemented, people who have nothing to do for whatever reason or have missed quests, play alone alot, don't have the time will be able to login and gain xp. Its automated once a GM assigns it and can always be removed if a person's RP quality is deemed to have dropped/disappeared (i.e they bash too much).
Cons obviously are similar to the WL xp wand, people may get annoyed if they feel they're striving for it and not recieving it. Sorted out by removing a tiered system that basically becomes a caste system seen on Arelith; just have one or two levels of xp awarded.
People who grind alot WILL level faster and thus the server as a whole will level faster (Dorg didnt like this). It can be remedied if GMs judge on a case by case basis who RPs enough to earn the reward (may lead to issue listed above) and who spends way too much time grinding instead.
Its not really all that different to Gms coming online and rewarding people for RPing with XP. They could be sitting in a town, discussing something interesting and their XP increases and brings them closer to levelling up mechanically. One can argue that it doesn't make a fighter and better fighter by having a chat but if it takes a fighter killing a couple hundred creatures just to get a +1 ab, I think you can call the system flawed anyway. If I went out and killed that many things, I guarentee you I'd know how to handle a sword and shield alot better than before I killed them. So this system just makes the GM logging in more mechanical, and you get xp to help you get closer to your level without having to perform genocide to as high a degree as most of us technically do.
All in all though.. if GMs are active and log in and award you XP for RP. I'd say the system isn't broke so do not fix it.. and I don't really think the above is an improvement but if the team prefer it, its there. It only really solves the no GM, no quest, too to no other player's issue by making you gain xp even without having someone else around. Since crafting is tedious for some, and logging off becomes all the more attractive at the time which isnt really healthy for a server thats short on people.
Note though that people with the most time available to play will also benefit the most if they spend it on the server doing anything to trigger the xp grant.
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I guess my thinking is this:
If you play on the server for a consistently reasonable amount of time per month, you will earn one level for one PC.
In general I'd say make "consistently reasonable amount of time" be the most non-judgmental way possible. For example, if you play for four hours one week in a group of six bashing monsters, while the next week you find another person at Center's campfire, while the following weekend you find yourself alone on the server and go pick cotton, you have played enough to be considered a valued member of the Layonara server community and in recognition here is a level to be applied to one of your PCs.
You can think of all sorts of reasons to justify the level OOCly: While I'm not online, my PC is bashing spiders!
Again, I guess I'm wondering if it's so terrible that a player with limited time (or less desire to bash) be allowed to progress their PC in the world.
Just think about it: What upsets you about a PC gaining a level for participating in the game in their own style? Is it because you are "winning" and would feel cheated if someone else took a short cut? Is it that you've invested more than they have? What is it?
How it would work: On the first day of the calendar month, you bring one of your PCs (any of them) to a banker and choose, "Level me because I'm awesome!" A tick gets put by your player name in the database and that's it until all the tick marks are wiped on the last day of the month in preparation for the first.
We're so few players that it probably doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Don't require journals, don't count hours ingame, etc. Add the stated rule (perhaps in the ingame dialogue) that if you are just logging in on the first of the month to level a PC and not playing it is a banable offense. Lots of rules aren't backed by mechanics but by OOC stated rules.
Try it for a few months, see if we get some more players online. Perhaps the first week of the month becomes a heady leveling fest full of newly more powerful PCs rampaging across the server in joyous RP.
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@PenNPopper, your idea fails to take into account a couple of pretty important things.
1) It assumes everyone plays under the same player account. They don't. Your suggestion favors players who play under multiple accounts to a large degree. This is patently unfair from the start and it's easily exploitable.
2) The GM oversight required for this, such as your bannable offense of logging in once just to level a character and what I mentioned above, would be significant if really monitored as it should be. I can tell you it would not be. Database access is restricted, and I've got far more I need to be doing than scouring the database looking for exploiters or writing some analytical code to find them in a more automated way.
@Dremora: I have something like this already, coded and mostly tested. It's missing administration tools...meaning a way for GMs to activate it. It's self-limiting (expires after a set period of time), it's sensitive to things like a character being idle (i.e. going afk for hours) and so on to keep it reasonable and appropriate.
Why isn't it in place? Well, I've not fully decided if it's the right thing or not for one. And again, it's just not falling into my priorities at the moment.
Beyond these two replies, I'm not getting into a discussion on the merits or pitfalls of the general idea any further than I already have.
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I'll take this as a firm, "No, level-per-month is not going to happen." Got it!
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Popper
I think your voluntary approach of a group levelling at the same pace would be much easier to progress, and visits some of the same ground perhaps in a manner much more likely to be viable and if required changeable. IE still a good area to experiment without forcing change on the server and tying up valuable team time.
Your other thread where I added a point about granting some free levels granted to new start players under some agreable scheme or other to allow them the chance to play with the big PCs - would be a much simpler to implement approach.
Here there is some related precedent whereby players have previously been granted up to 3 million XPs for not playing a series - single levels each I grant you, but there is some area of common ground, and the xp hit I think was supported by player base and team alike on that occassion. However there may be common ground under a set of circumstances found to be comfortable that allow more levels to be granted - again perhaps in isolation for one specific series as an experiment etc.
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Beyond these two replies, I'm not getting into a discussion on the merits or pitfalls of the general idea any further than I already have.
Didn't ask you to. It was a suggestion that didn't require a reply, I simply listed the pro's and cons of a system I've seen in action before as a sort of 'expect this' guide incase anyone on the team liked the idea of that sorta system or had been coming up with something along those lines.
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Didn't ask you to. It was a suggestion that didn't require a reply, I simply listed the pro's and cons of a system I've seen in action before as a sort of 'expect this' guide incase anyone on the team liked the idea of that sorta system or had been coming up with something along those lines.
You misunderstand.
That comment was directed at the thread in general, not to your specific suggestion.
As I said, I have a system very similar to what you suggested. It's unfortunate that your response avoided this point and instead focused in on a general statement of my desire to not get involved further in a debate about free XP.
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Sorry, thought it was since it was under the "@dremora" section.
I did notice what you said, hence I added the part about incase someone came up with idea already or something similar (referring to you).
If you considered my post to be defensive or seemingly 'off' in terms of my mood behind it, I apologise. I had somewhere to be so I was curt in my explanation that it was just a general suggestion. :(
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It was a good suggestion, Dremora. I'm sure any ruffled feathers can be blamed on the original poster! ;)
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Not in this case Pen. Its fine anyway, just a bit of miscommunication, relax. :)
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Food for thought.....a follow on to some previously aired ideas here and elsewhere.
There have been 2 series started at level one where pcs are introduced on a series of quests. One of these did not finish properly. The other, designed to introduce some lore to the game was set in the past and where all the pcs were constrained to being Gnomes and is still ongoing but has been a very lengthy production, and the lore and the characters are not yet in game. There are many reasons for these outcomes and I mention them because thats the way they are and no slight intended anywhere.
That withstanding I think both games have offered a common story and something all those PCs could hang their hat on RP wise as they go forward from the point of finishing. Both adventures have been tight and more fun for the close grouping of levels and the themed stories.
Okay adding that to the mix in the above posts.
Start a themed quest (needs to well thought out time zones) introducing/embellishing lore.
The PCs all start at an enhanced level - say somewhere agreed between 15-20 (all would be the same)
The PCs are all constrained by a common theme, and may be fed a history by the GM if both agree to it.
EG All the PC must play survivors of the recent conflict at Hilm Castle - all were present at the siege, whatever their role or side. (this could be more complex and detailed as the gm/loremaster deems fit)
EG fed history. GM to player A - I know you said you were a kitchen porter drafted into holding the south tower, and learned your skills during that battle but you also previously joined the secret guild of master Kitchen Porters who are seeking the long lost meat cleaver of Hilm and I need you recall that going forward..is that agreable ?...(both sign up to whatever)
Some provision is made for late joining or a future production dependent on success -to best serve fairness and demand.
The series runs (ideally given the past events with these efforts this needs to be run over a set time - I suggest no more than 3 months, with as many sessions as the GM/s can happily do.)
At the end of the series the pcs are in game and free to play as normal (provided they participated in sufficient games)
This provides an intense background both written pre game and during series to make up for the lack of the usual route. I would argue these intro games provide a pretty solid background and I think that applies regardless of entry level.
It brings pcs in at a higher level for those that miss that/desire that. This should provide a limited player base more opportunity to mix and visit other areas. This may aid retention/fun/mystery/something new.
It may lead to a follow on series if the Players find they like the idea of growing with level compatability and GMs support it. or indeed players might voluntarily continue as a group with whatever agreement suits them.
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I like your idea mix. I would be happy to run something like this starting in the summer since I am currently taking a college course, an HR certification prep course, and moving my family from Hawaii to Washington, DC... so a little tied up right now. I will have time in July though. =)
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OSX - if you can run it in GMT time or GMT +1 then count me in :)
One thing would be a nice addition though - to take part in this scheme, could the participants be allowed to have an additional character for this so it doesn't count towards the max number allowed at the moment. I am at my max and would not like to delete a character to take part in this experiment, much as it sounds like a great idea.
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As I mentioned in the GMT Players thread... I'm also working on a few ideas that I hope to run during GMT. This summer will be easier for me because my kids will be out of school and we won't be on a schedule, so if you can bear with me, I am working on it as much as my rl will allow me. It won't be exactly what Mixafix described below, and no, to my knowledge, at this time we will not be allowing people to have over the allowances on characters for a quest series. The ideas I have in mind, so far, though, do not require you to submit a new character unless you want to.
Thanks for your patience.
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@ Dorg
Free XP on this server very unlikely..least not my direction
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@silverblades As a long time player, how much do you currently play? Are there things that prevent you from playing? Are there things that might encourage you to play more often?
Thanks!
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Maybe consider daily quests?
You have some of the quests (like the bugs in the cellar quest) as daily. This is so you can have the ability to complete the quest a few times. However, maybe make it so you can only complete 5 daily quests a day. I can understand that this would most likely be difficult to programme!
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Osxmallard
then I think it is over to your side of the fence to see what is agreable but I think the general idea is pretty interesting. For me making some lore and people's invented past be drawn into the series as it unfolds could offer a nice way of adding depth - but thats just me, I think there must be alot of new things to try in this.
Alatriel
Noted and sounds good - GMTers can walk tall this summer.
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I'll bump this thread yet again. The arguments for potential abuse and GM oversight required don't hold water for me any longer: There are only a handful of players online, who's going to abuse anything? The argument of "they didn't earn it" also rings hollow: I earned it by participating in the world. Period.
If a new or old player knows that they will be guaranteed a level just for being online and contributing to the community, that seems like a win for everyone. They can choose to grind up levels, or just kick back and relax and level "slowly."
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I completely agree with PnP.
I realize my playtime is erratic which makes it basically impossible to level some of my characters, hence why I have a stable full of level 8-11 with one exception a level 21 who I started 5+ years ago!
The times I can play is when no one else is on, so I craft... there's no XP in that, but I do still play!
But..... I know my characters are basically stuck at or near the levels they are now, which at times makes it seem pointless for me to log in. I know its a RP server, but I do like leveling!
I would love one level per month for one character, NOT ALL of my characters.
(I did not read entirly through this thread so some ideas might already be there)
My Thanks,
Merlin34
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I dont want to complicate the issue, however if this were to be implemented, I'd like to see it as an option, not a standard.
I can well understand the desire to have the levels to be able to contribute to the group on various quests, but to me DnD is at least partially about surviving in an inimical environment. This may hold especially true of Layo where you have to survive for an even longer time to press the button and get your food pellet.
Perhaps I'm overly masochistic, but I dont want a handout. Even getting xp for RP makes me somewhat uneasy. RP should be its own reward, its why we're here. Getting a reward for it makes me feel like I should have done something more tangible.
On the other hand, Gunther is already at a level where he can usually contribute. Not always, but usually. So while I can sympathize with the concept, my opinion may not be without bias.
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I agree with Merlin, and Gunthar. I like the idea, as an option. I would use it for one character only, most likely. Certainly I think its a sensible reflection on our characters continuing to live, study, work, and adventure in the world even if the RL player doesn't have enough free time to play them all effectively. It would be up to the player to decide if their character was more likely to work hard and develop, or sit back and idle through life when not being actively played. Assuming it was a toggle-able command in game, similar to the one disabling xp from combat, then people would be able to turn it off and on to gain levels more slowly than one per month as well, to reflect how they saw their character's drive and current activities.
As an example, I spent some time away from online play recently, and my IC explanation was that my character Jenna spent her time on Xeen's island, participating in services and learning to tend grapes and make wine... partly to account for my RL time away and partly to cover IC explaining her suddenly being able to make Xeenite wine when she'd only brewed beer and ales before (from brewing skill rising. Wines and beer are different animals.) Several months passed there, but I wouldn't have had her gain levels during that period. But now that I have her back in circulation and adventuring again, if RL took me away again, I might turn such a thing on to reflect her being active in a way that could improve her proficiency wielding the Alnoth.
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I am for this for an option as well