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Author Topic: Hail of Arrows Question  (Read 724 times)

MadHattan

Hail of Arrows Question
« on: November 25, 2012, 10:47:19 pm »
Would it be possible for the "Hail of Arrows" feat to use the arrows currently in the quiver?  The feat would might be more interesting and possibly more used by AA's that have it.
 
--Madd
 

lonnarin

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 01:31:57 pm »
Unfortunately the way this is coded the arrows are created from thin air as regular arrows when you use the feat.  On the down side, you don't get to use specially enchanted arrows in your inventory.  On the plus side, you save a few arrows from your quiver when you use them.  Considering this is a feat and not a standard attack, I doubt this would be easy to code, or possible.
 

drakogear

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 04:55:45 pm »
Could say its a spell like ability in which the AA conjures magical arrows with each pull of there bow. Kinda like seeker arrow... not sure if there as accurate though. Doesn't req. line of sight. Haven't played an AA myself... yet.
 

Jilseponie Wyndon

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 06:08:59 pm »
Ionnarin: Yes its a feat, but it takes up the time of two rounds of standard attacks.  Like a "Cool Down" period when using it.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 12:30:31 am »
It would be a good addition to be able to use the same arrows than those that are equipped at that moment.

Guardian 452

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 04:18:06 am »
yes lets make the AA even stronger... (says the pouting human ranger)  lol ;)
 

Hellblazer

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 12:24:39 pm »
Bah when the pouting human ranger gets bane of enemies, all AA skills will seem weaker in comparison, mostly because they can only be used a certain number of time. ;)

Guardian 452

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 01:01:13 pm »
*hands over the lid to the can or worms he opened* ;)
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 01:42:12 pm »
Let me get this straight. .. we are comparing a feat from an epic class skill that needs at least to spend 21 levels of ranger to a class to an AA that can be taken way earlier and actually doesn't cost you a feat?

Back into the thread issue, think that we should not go out of the trail of the thread.  I think that the main issue with the feat is precisely that. that its a feat and the coding of it its going to be tricky, currently there is no feat that can be "targeted" into something ( item armor and such ), I am not sure if the coding of the NWN allows to use this function as a feat ( aside those who actually grants you spell like abilities that mimics an existing spell ).

With this said, the hardest part of making this posible will be the coding and the posible bugs that they may bring, Because the coding will need to be reworked wholey into generating a "new spell" for putting it as that that would be in effect once the feat its activated. At least that is how i see would work.

Feats are tricky and hard coded in my understanding

*Mumbles about how the divine feats got bugged in a strange way and how he has been unable to figure the why's*
 

drakogear

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 03:27:37 pm »
till say to leave it as is and consider it a spell like ability. Maybe not of any spells a caster could normally cast but close.

Examples: Magic Missile, Missile storm, Melf's Acid Arrow, Fire Brand.

The AA (ARCANE Archer... er, Al'noth Archer?) uses there magical abilities to conjure magical arrows and fire them off. Kinda like a modified version of the missile spells.

LORE: Imbue Arrow could also be considered a spell like ability. A modified version of Fireball. Even says in the description that they Summon the arrow rather then enchanting/imbueing a material one

As to comparing the AA feats to spell like abilities, there is the uses per day much like spell slots.

All in all I'd say an AA is not necessarily a highly skilled archer but rather an archer the uses magic to empower there shots, from simply enchanting there material arrows to conjuring magical ones.

Edit: Example of using magic rather then skill:

Dex bonus: 0
Archery skill: 0
Target: An apple

*Uses seeker arrow, having difficulty aiming... firing in completely opposite direction*

Critical hit! apple destroyed

:D ok, maybe an over exaggerated example but still... that was purely magical talent... not skill. *looks to archery judges* I-I mean that was pure skill... no magic what so ever... I... I... I'm disqualified from the archery tournament arn't I? :(
 

Hellblazer

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 06:22:18 pm »
Quote from: Lance Stargazer
Let me get this straight. .. we are comparing a feat from an epic class that needs at least to spend 21 levels of ranger to a class to an AA that can be taken way earlier and actually doesn't cost you a feat?

Back into the thread issue, think that we should not go out of the trail of the thread.  I think that the main issue with the feat is precisely that. that its a feat and the coding of it its going to be tricky, currently there is no feat that can be "targeted" into something ( item armor and such ), I am not sure if the coding of the NWN allows to use this function as a feat ( aside those who actually grants you spell like abilities that mimics an existing spell ).

With this said, the hardest part of making this posible will be the coding and the posible bugs that they may bring, Because the coding will need to be reworked wholey into generating a "new spell" for putting it as that that would be in effect once the feat its activated. At least that is how i see would work.

Feats are tricky and hard coded in my understanding

*Mumbles about how the divine feats got bugged in a strange way and how he has been unable to figure the why's*


Isnt't there is some armor that have feat integrated into them, like knockdown or such?

Lance Stargazer

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 06:43:39 pm »
An armor hardly, But the point remains.. In case that the armor grant you an ability you can't target an item. most likely would be an item ( arrows ) that grant the abilty of hail of arrows ( which i think would be off balance )

I am not sure if I am understanding this the same as you, though , Depending on what are you trying to say on how the system may work. Missunderstanding on terms can always be a flaw on any conversation ..
 

Jilseponie Wyndon

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 08:53:20 pm »
Back to the general idea of what Madhatten stated in the beginning, how about this this question:

Since the Arcane Archer can imbue an arrow with a low level fireball, how about abilities to imbue arrows with other elements as well?  There is the Electric Jolt, Acid Splash, Cold Ray ... so there would be 4 types of imbue at 3 times per type.  If you are skilled enough to cast these, why not also be able to imbue the arrows as well?  Why is it limited to just fire?

Or .. if 3 times per type is too much ... increase the total number of uses based on casting levels and the archer will have to divvy up the numbers between the different types.  Or something along those lines.
 

Dorganath

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 08:28:32 am »
This is very quickly becoming a suggestion thread.  Moved appropriately.
 

Dorganath

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 09:13:54 am »
My comments on the original question...

From a game balance perspective, this is essentially a request for more power/greater damage with little to no down-side.  Generally speaking, unless there's a deficiency in what exists, these sorts of requests are usually not implemented, or at least, not without some sort of compromise (i.e. reduction in targets, etc.).

More interesting? Perhaps, though I suspect the real comment there is "more powerful" because I don't think the average AA player takes a look at the arrows while they're flying and says, "Wow!  Look at those platinum-tipped, raven-tailed mahogany arrows go!" *winks*

From a "how it works" perspective, this is a magical effect; the Arcane Archer doesn't load up his/her level in arrows and fire them all simultaneously.  These are multiple ranged-touch attacks to potentially every hostile creature in the area that don't even require line-of-sight to target or hit. Effectively, this is an area-of-effect attack, and typically, the trade-off is lower damage per target in exchange for damaging more targets. Effectively what's being asked for here is to remove that trade-off, resulting in more damage coupled with the greater chance of actually hitting (ranged touch vs. standard to-hit rolls). Our CNR arrows are already stronger than standard arrows just by themselves.  Add in the potential for elementally enhanced arrow stacks and the damage from this is multiplied...and possibly tripled again on a critical hit. I assume you'd still want the Enchant Arrow bonus applied as well? Wow.  Yeah, interesting indeed.

From a technical standpoint (and no, I have not looked up the implementation), there could be additional issues.  What happens when the quiver is not full enough or gets emptied right before using the feat?  What happens when using a bow with unlimited ammunition? I could argue that it shouldn't work with such a bow, if we are setting the damage to the physical ammunition.

There's also a technical issue of calculating the damage from these projectiles.  Since the script (presumably) isn't actually firing arrows but essentially creating magical missiles, we can't fall back on simple game mechanics to just do the damage for us.  Instead, the script has to parse the item properties of the arrows (or potentially the bow), get the base damage plus bonuses, get the vs. damage from the arrowheads, get the special additional damage from the fletching, and get any additional bonus damage (i.e. elemental), then roll that all separately for each target that is hit.  I'm not saying this is impossible, but it is quite involved and potentially lag-inducing and error-prone.

For full disclosure, I don't have an AA character, and so I do not use the feat.  It's possible there is some sort of massive deficiency in its present implementation (besides "not enough" damage), and if so, maybe there's a way to adjust it to even things out that does not magnify its effect by quite so much and is not as complex to implement.  

What other possibilities come to mind?
 

MadHattan

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2012, 01:54:43 pm »
Wow, thanks everyone for all the responses and discussion.  I did not anticipate so much activity from my simple question.
 
I am actually quite satisfied with SehKy's 'power' and really was thinking about how to make it more 'interesting', honest.  The magic arrows produced by all AA feats do not visually appear very magical IMO..  they visually look like normal arrows that turn or otherwise behave magically.  They are actually hard to see.  I was playing with the Hail of Arrows the other day and was thinking that the feat was cool and interesting, but I doubted that the other players I was with even noticed I used the feat.  
 
Now if the feat used the arrows I had in my quiver (enchanted) then the visual effect would be noticeable and kind of cool and unique to AA's.  Consider how Hail of Arrows visually compares to the Fire Brand Spell.
 
If the AA magic arrows "looked" magical then it would perhaps better tell the story.
 
-Madd
 

Guardian 452

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2012, 04:31:38 pm »
So you're asking for some eye candy then is how I read your last post. Not a power change?
 

Hellblazer

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 06:17:32 pm »
Quote from: MadHattan
Wow, thanks everyone for all the responses and discussion.  I did not anticipate so much activity from my simple question.
 
I am actually quite satisfied with SehKy's 'power' and really was thinking about how to make it more 'interesting', honest.  The magic arrows produced by all AA feats do not visually appear very magical IMO..  they visually look like normal arrows that turn or otherwise behave magically.  They are actually hard to see.  I was playing with the Hail of Arrows the other day and was thinking that the feat was cool and interesting, but I doubted that the other players I was with even noticed I used the feat.  
 
Now if the feat used the arrows I had in my quiver (enchanted) then the visual effect would be noticeable and kind of cool and unique to AA's.  Consider how Hail of Arrows visually compares to the Fire Brand Spell.
 
If the AA magic arrows "looked" magical then it would perhaps better tell the story.
 
-Madd


I'd love to see the arrows an AA shoot ( using an aa feat or just plain shooting normally as they already enchant their arrows just by picking them up in their quiver) get a VFX added so that it shows it's different than just any other archer. Maybe something that is of a colour not common to the other visual effects. Deep blue or purple or something.

Dorganath

Re: Hail of Arrows Question
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 10:37:30 pm »
As far as visuals go, we're pretty limited by what is in NWN already...unless someone here is good at 3D modeling and the particle systems available in NWN.

For example, the only "enhanced" arrow visuals are the ones for Flame Arrow and Melf's Acid Arrow.  Other missile effects produced by spells (i.e. VFX) are things like Magic Missile (and the Isaac's missile storm spells) and ball lightning.

If these feats/spell-like effects were actual arrows and not (effectively) magic missiles, then we'd have the range of visuals provided by fire, acid, electricity, cold and sonic....but they're not.

It's not as simple a picking a color, unfortunately.  We're veering into custom 3D and particle effect content here.

As for arrows shot normally, since they're just arrows to the NWN game engine, they'd have to have some kind of visual effect property added to the stack. We can't intercept how the game engine fires mechanical arrows and selectively apply such an effect.
 

 

anything