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Author Topic: Half Monsters and Hempstead  (Read 403 times)

Acacea

Half Monsters and Hempstead
« on: February 25, 2008, 02:49:07 am »
I think the sign outside the gates is stricter than the city's atmosphere/alignment calls for. Halvsies were fine (even if treated like dirt at times) until the update, when suddenly they became anathema. I realize the Dark Ages were a population killer and bred a lot more suspicion, but even so. Half orcs worked the docks before that and were looked down on by most people for having orc blood and being butt ugly, while half giants are even more rare anyway and are probably registered or something but were never something deserving of a 'kill/arrest on sight' tag before. The sign itself always seemed kind of just an OOC reminder for a starting city to me anyway, as it would be seriously odd for any city of village to ever have to consciously put a sign like that out. How many orcs can read? How many dark elves care? If they can read and are actually put aside by a sign, then they probably would have been allowed in as they must be decent sorts, right? Hehe. But they aren't, so... :P

In order for Port Hempstead to start banning half-orcs, they would have had to actually go out and forcibly remove or exterminate the ones already living there, which is totally not the kind of city that is. The words on the sign always seemed like a bit of an oversight. I can see half orcs being banned from certain establishments of the city at the discretion of the owners, but not the city itself. Hempstead's laws aren't super strict compared to other places, after all - they are pretty much the common sense natural reactions of most places. Orcs, dark elves, goblins, etc = bad news. Just how it is. Half orcs, on the other hand, seem to be just 'icky' rather than "illegal just for existing.'

And LORE has stated for ages that half-giants get along with both halves of their parentage okay, and are actually treated better than say, half elves are treated by elves (usually looked at with some disgust or lack of acknowledgment from my experience). It also says that "Among Humans, a Half Giant can usually pass as a Barbarian due to his immense size and sturdy build." but judging by recent conversations that might not be the case anymore, hehe. Even if so, they just seem rare enough for most people to get by with reacting with fear/shock/suspicion because they are pretty freaking huge. I would say they would get the reaction they deserve in and out of the city because of being so uncommon, but with no law made to ban them. Why would they?

So it would be nice to have the sign either fixed or completely overhaul the city to be LE bent on suffering only pure blooded races to live free, and arresting or killing people for the crime of having been a child of tragedy. I would suggest a compromise of banning monster races (like just about every other place in the world that isn't seedy and depressingly apathetic), and allowing halvsies (except ogres maybe? Are those different? We don't have many and I'm not sure of their acceptance level. They seem worse, but I'm not sure if people can tell the difference as easily

-edit- "Half Ogres do not have land of their own, they’re pretty tolerated in human communities, where most of them do heavy manual labor or act as mercenaries. Other races despise them because of their ogrish ancestry." still true?) ...but with special laws for them or something and acknowledgment that establishments reserve the right to refuse service.

Perhaps half-giants can't purchase liquor, because of the damage inflicted by a drunken one. ;) I doubt the fancy seafood place by the lighthouse serves half orcs or half giants, and a snobby merchant with guards might kick a part blood out of the way, but outright banning them from city limits seems much.

Allowing them restricted entry leaves room for the moments of individual NPC fear and bigotry without painting the entire outlook of the city with one "no tainted blood!" brush. "Never fully accepted" != killed/arrested on sight. Just my opinion there...

Besides, they're all going to be dead in a couple decades, anyway. ;)
 
The following users thanked this post: Drizzlin, ShiffDrgnhrt

Drizzlin

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 03:29:14 am »
This has been a major issue that I have with the kind of changes with hempsted. The city is run by "good" milita. My concern has been with half giants mostly. Lore says that halfgiants are readily accepted by humans. This is IMO the race that should without a doubt be removed from the banned list.

I personally feel that half giants are not given the respect nor the proper treatment that Lore says they are to receive, from both DMs and players.
 

lonnarin

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 04:05:14 pm »
While the city and militia itself may have a certain alignment, not all laws match the will of the people or the state.  Sometimes it just takes a handful of a very vocal minority exacting political pressure at just the right points to effect massive change that the populace would otherwise be opposed to.  Take prohibition (1920-33) for example, which was largely the result of female religious zealots, who just then earned the right to vote (1920).  While this small group made up but a fraction of the population, the fervor over being able to vote for the first time led to them storming the ballot boxes and banning all alcohol in the US, whereas the men of all demographics who could vote were lazy and chose not to at the time.  Without sheer force of numbers or mandate of the masses, a minority group in politics may still effect large amounts of change in government if all of their members are dedicated enough to turn out in full force.

Then there is also political corruption where members of the state are subverted by political contributions, lobbying or outright dissonance with the voting populace.  NOBODY votes for tax cuts for oil companies, yet they recieve them just the same, despite the will of the people.  All it takes is a briefcase full of Hamiltons and suddenly the elected delegate of an area is totally misalligned with his constituancy.  Then sometimes in autocratic situations, a powerful individual in government has a change in management and the policies of a nation state totally go against thee grain of the people or even the very spirit of those who founded the government.  Like say, when the son of the director of the CIA takes over, and suddenly a nation which used to be the strongest supporter of the Geneva Conventions starts claiming that drowning somebody to the brink of death and bringing them back again is no longer considered torture.  The people are still the same, most of the government is still the same, but suddenly the man on the obsidian throne decides to go on a slash and burn crusade all over the world.  Does the nation automatically lose its CG status when a LE leader is behind the curtain?

So the laws of Hempstead may very well be against the grain of the city, its people, its government and all other things which relate to the city's alignment, yet one political force pervading that system may be responsible for the recent changes.  No doubt some racist moralist theocratic organization has infiltraded the government of Hempstead, some noble in the right place managed to grease the right palms, and bought the laws he wanted for the city.  This one change in policy does not necessarily need reflect the wishes or aims of the people or the establishment, nor should either be judged as a whole for one law which only recently was passed.  Bear in mind that few people have the opportunity to effect political change in a feudalistic environment, so this law may have been the result of but a single local lord or rofirienite magistrate.

Also bear in mind that city alignments shift too, and the entry for Hempstead in which we reference its alignment was written prior to the law being passed and enforced.
 

Drizzlin

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 05:51:47 pm »
Quote from: lonnarin
While the city and militia itself may have a certain alignment, not all laws match the will of the people or the state.  Sometimes it just takes a handful of a very vocal minority exacting political pressure at just the right points to effect massive change that the populace would otherwise be opposed to.  Take prohibition (1920-33) for example, which was largely the result of female religious zealots, who just then earned the right to vote (1920).  While this small group made up but a fraction of the population, the fervor over being able to vote for the first time led to them storming the ballot boxes and banning all alcohol in the US, whereas the men of all demographics who could vote were lazy and chose not to at the time.  Without sheer force of numbers or mandate of the masses, a minority group in politics may still effect large amounts of change in government if all of their members are dedicated enough to turn out in full force.

Then there is also political corruption where members of the state are subverted by political contributions, lobbying or outright dissonance with the voting populace.  NOBODY votes for tax cuts for oil companies, yet they recieve them just the same, despite the will of the people.  All it takes is a briefcase full of Hamiltons and suddenly the elected delegate of an area is totally misalligned with his constituancy.  Then sometimes in autocratic situations, a powerful individual in government has a change in management and the policies of a nation state totally go against thee grain of the people or even the very spirit of those who founded the government.  Like say, when the son of the director of the CIA takes over, and suddenly a nation which used to be the strongest supporter of the Geneva Conventions starts claiming that drowning somebody to the brink of death and bringing them back again is no longer considered torture.  The people are still the same, most of the government is still the same, but suddenly the man on the obsidian throne decides to go on a slash and burn crusade all over the world.  Does the nation automatically lose its CG status when a LE leader is behind the curtain?

So the laws of Hempstead may very well be against the grain of the city, its people, its government and all other things which relate to the city's alignment, yet one political force pervading that system may be responsible for the recent changes.  No doubt some racist moralist theocratic organization has infiltraded the government of Hempstead, some noble in the right place managed to grease the right palms, and bought the laws he wanted for the city.  This one change in policy does not necessarily need reflect the wishes or aims of the people or the establishment, nor should either be judged as a whole for one law which only recently was passed.  Bear in mind that few people have the opportunity to effect political change in a feudalistic environment, so this law may have been the result of but a single local lord or rofirienite magistrate.

Also bear in mind that city alignments shift too, and the entry for Hempstead in which we reference its alignment was written prior to the law being passed and enforced.


If hempsted was the only place that halfgiants are treated like monsterous demon races, then I would be inclinded to agree. However, halfgiants are still IMO not treated in game th way Lore says they should be.

Hempsted is just another example of that.
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 05:59:59 pm »
[LORE]Half Giant[/LORE]
:)  Just for reference
 

Gulnyr

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 06:06:21 pm »
I don't think the point is that cities can't or shouldn't have laws that seem unusual for their alignments or that leaders may go a different way than the population.  Of course they can!  Just don't make a habit of it.  I mean, if characters are expected to follow their alignments, cities should be expected to follow theirs, right?

It's important, I think, for the handbook and LORE to reflect the in-game world, and for the in-game world to reflect the handbook and LORE.  If one contradicts the other, it just causes confusion and creates trouble.  It's fine if some cities occasionally have laws that go against the grain of their alignments or don't mesh perfectly with LORE as long as there is some IC information that helps explain why.  I'm not sure I've ever heard any IC reason specifically stated why any race other than Dark Elves aren't permitted in Port Hempstead, and, honestly, everyone hates Dark Elves, so they didn't really need a reason even though they had a good one ready.  Some races being excluded from entry, like Orcs and Goblins, are just understood, as that's kind of a staple for fantasy worlds.  If those were permitted, that would be something to explain.  

Besides that, I'm not sure a starter city is really the place to be experimenting with laws that contradict LORE or city alignment.  Bigotry from certain places, sure; you've got to expect that when you play a 'monster' race.  Complete exclusion for races written in LORE as widely accepted by Humans... not in the starter towns.  People should be able to read LORE or the handbook, then get into the game at the starter areas with an experience that reasonably matches what they've read.  Oddities and exceptions should be down the road a bit.
 

Acacea

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 07:30:57 pm »
Lonnarin, the reason I  find it kind of funny that this is occurring in Hempstead is that it is recovering from political corruption and bigotry. I don't like that the city as it is really does not seem represented in certain laws and possessions - check the LORE entry for the place to see a few hints of how it was in the past, like comments about surrounding areas complaining about being under the boot of the port. The place was dragged through the dirt and corrupted from bottom to top with some very very nasty people - the City of Gold lived for gold just to have it and trade it and leak to shady deals and corrupted politics. It was reformed several decades ago to the point of riots, deaths, and arsons, and the people that came in to clean up dragged it to a way of living that was to benefit the broader sense of the people rather than the wealthy nobility and secret sponsors. Out with the slums, in with the kitchens, that kind of thing.

Deliarites are completely anti-bigotry as the god is about an attitude and practice of trade, not wealth in general. If anyone, I would think the politically secret doings behind the curtain would lean away from main city alignment to CG because of the ones handling the money. Do I expect players to know all that stuff automatically when the handbook is way outdated? No, not at all, but I think people attempting to represent the place to players should attempt to learn, that's all. To make it less about having to dig through old documents and quest writeups and unfinished handbooks and more about being able to see something in game. Not read "the city is mostly good" but have it represented to you in game without dramatic changes of interpretation between different representatives. Communication is good for that.

To be clear, I am not at all opposed to IG hatred, fear, and bigotry, nor do I think a place once burned of corruption is immune to it in the future, no matter how closely they watch their own people or how hard they try or how many criminals the Silverguard nobly try to subdue instead of wound or kill. Things slip. You can't win them all. It happens. I think it should not, however, happen randomly, unknowingly, or suddenly. That makes you feel like some DM just decided that all that past player and NPC effort is old now, no longer useful, and should just be tossed aside for his new and improved version! It instead needs to root and grow within existing events, and be a process over time that makes sense with its past events and done by someone that has taken the time to understand them, not just decided it's going to be like that from now on because wouldn't it be cool if the people running Hemp were really evil political masterminds? Not really, 'cause we actually did that already. Makes me think of a 'cool' villain that was a paladin that fell that regained his valor that fell again that regained his valor that people are wanting to slip again. Starts losing its story value real fast. :P

As well, if something like that did happen, there should be IC explanations and rumors - if the 'law' is really valid, then we must have heard about half-orcs being driven out. Perhaps Captain Trent would have retired, as he was promoted because of his good heart supposedly, and he wouldn't have stood for that nor supported it. Actions, regardless of what sort they are, have consequences and touch on many different things. You can't explain one change that doesn't fit with the place by suggesting several possible explanations that would all be dramatic and noticeable from many different angles, because that only worsens the problem. Instead of just a typo on the sign that is easily fixed, now you have to explain how the change of leadership occurred, why no one noticed these actions, which people were affected, which groups initiated it, why x is still doing y, etc. It's fun to 'suppose' but really the work that would actually need to be done just to make it fit in is not at all simple.

I could write you an explanation and process for those unfair laws that make sense for the city's leaders and represent their attitudes, and twist it around to actually be for the protection of the half races, but that's not really the point. It's much easier to just start from a good representation of a place, and then let it change from there. Not start from a poor representation and to explain it, claim it just changed suddenly for a random reason that requires even further explanation. :) Just my thirty cents, there, a large portion of which was mostly addressing the concept of 'easy' explanations that really need to consider all angles, rather than just the sign outside of Hempstead which really seems pretty simple...oops.
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 07:48:08 pm »
So what should we do then. Instead of Explaining why, could someone tell us if Half Giants SHOULD be allowed in Hempstead.  Lore DOES say Half Giants are generally accepted, but the Sign says no and causes confusion.
 
 Does anyone have a "This is how it REALLY is" somewhere
 

Acacea

Re: Half Monsters and Hempstead
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2008, 08:13:20 pm »
I really think it's all just kind of being over-complicated, and as fun as playing with corruption and city makeovers and possibilities are, the simplest things are usually the best. ;) At the moment there is no reason to go against the sign, because that is IG. So just follow it, because even if it is indeed incorrect, there is no way for a lot of people to know that. I'm just requesting that it be changed, not that we all decide to RP against what the sign says and so forth. Until it has an official reply there is no reason to do so. If it is fixed after the fact, we can just pretend it was never there. If it's not fixed, nothing changes, except we should start looking at the 'why' and stuff. Either way, until then, carry on...and also either way, I would not expect to be treated like normal human beings by the most people, anyway. (Too many 'ways'.)
 

 

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