HiPS for Rangers

[Lord of the Forest]

First of all made valid point during this thread with their concerns and suggestions. I know that HiPS is quite powerful and shadowdancer benefit from it mostly. Hey they are called Shadowdancer after all

I think that it should be mentioned as well that if the rangers were (which is extremely unlikely) given the NwN version of HiPS it would be significantly better than the DnD version rangers get as in DnD they are only allowed to use it in natural terrain where shadow dancers can do it anywhere there is shadow. If we were to give something comparative to rangers than a secondary HiPS feat would need to be made that recognizes the check box marked when the area was created.

I agree that the current NWN version of HiPS won't make a lot of sense here and I am with Ice on this point. Would it be possible to make a check somehow they would benefit from it, but not fully as a SD does. It only makes sense for a ranger to melt with its surrounding anyway so why not within the woods?

I see your concerns that not every ranger should run around with HiPS so why don't make them gain it in epic levels? Maybe not as a bonus feat but something they could chose and look forward to. Right now there are three characters with epic ranger levels, two of them still active. The characters could still decide if they want to spend a feat with a ranger specific HiPS.

It would surely add some flavour to the ranger class and more rangers would look forward to go epic ranger than to multiclass with rogue

I am open for suggestions

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Or why not just drop HiPS in as an epic feat that requires 30 Hide/Move silently?

[Serissa]

oooh, could a rogue choose that?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, that's the idea. It would be open to anyone with 30 ranks in Hide and Move Silently (no easy thing).

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

gotta be level 27 at least that means

[Lalaith Va'lash]

While it indeed may be no easy thing for characters to to gain +30 in Hide and move silently it doesn't necessarily make sense for a character to gain this feat by that alone.

Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability, to me, that is not something gained just by merely being 'superb' at a related skill.  

In context of Layonara, some of the post in this thread are correct.  That is: This ability is what, in part, defines the Shadowdancer class.  In other words their connection, manipulation, or ability to work with the shadows allows them to do some pretty astounding, amazing, even supernatural things with shadows.

In my opinion, other classes while they may be excellent at hiding and moving silently, simply do not have that same connection and ability with shadow to be able to do that.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I agree with you, Lala. My comment was originially in response to allowing the Ranger to select HiPS as a feat at epic levels; it was the tiniest bit tongue-in-cheek.

Anyone other than, say, Assassin, getting HiPS, I think would weaken the uniqueness of the Shadowdancer class.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

*Nods to Stephen.*

At any rate, the Shadowdancer PRC really isn't difficult to qualify for mechanically. But, as shown in this thread it does take a bit of a sacrifice (if your going for build reasons and not the RP reasons of it) to multi-class.  

We don't give bard songs to any other class.  Nor would we give Terrifying Bellow, Deafening chant, or Song of Exhaustion to others besides a Skald. It is only Spellswords that imbune their weapons in a specific way, and Arcane Archers who have Hail of Arrows, Seeker Arrows, and Enchant and Imbune Arrows.  Each is a defining feature specific to the class.  In Layonara it is the Shadowdancer's ability with the shadows that allows for the ability to Hide in Plain Sight.

In the same vein of reason, I also disagree that the Assassin PRC should be granted the feat.  But, I think I've already hijacked this thread enough and won't go off on that tangent. (I'll welcome your opinion's on IRC some time though SZ )

Admittedly, I don't know the most about the ranger class, and I understand that some have come to conclusion that nwn/Layonara's version of HIPS is not what you were trying to seek.  But that is what we have to work with currently and these are my opinions why it doesn't work.

I will whole heartedly welcome any ranger, or any other class to the darkside however... If you want to enrich your character and your experience with Layonara by joining our Shadowdancer troupe and taking the prestige class.

[LightlyFrosted]

Although I certainly concur that HiPS is a shadowdancer/assassin specific reward and without exceptional circumstances should remain so, I do feel compelled to point out that having +30 in a skill may not TRULY be magical - but it certainly approaches it.  The DC for an average task, after all, is 10; with a 10, basic acts such as scaling a knotted rope can be performed.  In another perspective, a bard who returns a '10' on a perform check has made a decent if not outstanding performance - it won't linger in anyone's memory perhaps, but it was pleasant enough.

At DC 30, one of the listed things for PnP that such a performance can do is to draw the attention of a wealthy patron or an extra-planar being.  An extra-planar being.

This, of course, would be without actually rolling any dice.  Or factoring in ability modifiers.

Put into the perspective of a Hide check.. well, it's a contested skill check, rather than needing to meet any arbitrary DC's, but you could theoretically use it to hide another person, if you were willing to take a -30 penalty, according to the PnP.  Realizing of course that such things do not work the same way in Layo, I suppose my point is that when you reach about +30, you've reached the point where your skills are very nearly magical in nature.

It only takes a DC 80 to swim up a waterfall.  ~^