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Author Topic: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes  (Read 510 times)

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2006, 01:54:41 pm »
How and where to hit are represented by BAB. As for defending with a weapon, that's your Parry skill, NOT something relative to BAB or AC.
 

Makusa

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    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #21 on: May 15, 2006, 02:41:55 pm »
    The ab script in the game is just if you can attack swiftly and acurately enough hit them without letting them dodge it.  As in the movie (Count Monty Cristo (or something like that)) when the old priest said that in sword fights speed mattered as much as strength.

    If how and where to hit ONLY affected WHETHER you did hit that would be BAB  since they affect how much you hurt the enemy it is damage.  
    How and where do affect how much you hurt because if you hit in the shoulder it won't affect the same as if you stab someone in the lung.   Also on how if you have your longblade tilted a little bit it Will do a different amount of damage than if it were flat.  And where you hit can depend on how you hit that spot using differnt

    for instance the feat Weapon Focus I have always believed being an improvement on speed and surity as you got used to the weapon where as the feat weapon specialty i have always held was learning how and where to deal the most damage (as you put new tecniques.)



    (Parry allows the character to block incoming attacks and make special counterattacks  USE: select parry ode character will remain in until exited.)  That's the parrying skill it is used for when your not attacking.  perhaps with the non proficient weapon it should be lowered as well.  But my minus to ac (which i called the lack of deffensive training in the weapon) was not reffering to blocking with the blade without attacking it was reffering to how a person swung and didn't leave themselves open for an easier than normal attack.

    Deffending with a weapon is not only your skill in parrying but where you place your body after you swing.  In RL swinging a long sword like a club will set off your balance enough that you won't be able to dodge as well as your normally would with that club.  I know this is not real life but i thought the purpose of Layonara was to make it as RL as possible and thats why were were taking penalties at all.  EDIT The only other reason would be the balancing of characters classes

    2nd edit: btw in general i think this proficiency idea is a good idea we just have to talk out all the kinks.  and wait for a final GM decision.
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #22 on: May 15, 2006, 03:40:13 pm »
    After this, I won't argue further... Just so you know.

    The combat system in D&D is relatively static. Attack, hit/miss, damage. Attack, hit/miss, damage. There is no "leaving yourself open" in D&D, except in RP where you explain why you rolled so low a Parry, or why you got nailed with a crit. The penalty to BAB means that you kill the other guy slower, so he has a better chance of killing you. End of story. The penalty to BAB and JUST BAB has been playtested for years, and has been found to work a bit better than the suggestion you are offering (I tried it for two sessions of PnP in primarily barroom brawls) even in my personal experience.

    Layo is supposed to work as close to PnP as possible, aye? So let's stick with what's worked in PnP, and other servers for that matter.
     

    iceyfire

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #23 on: May 16, 2006, 12:26:25 am »
    Well a wizard wielding a longsword means they wont hit anything, its hard enough as it is to gain a proper hit that damages so it not really worth picking up one... But i think it would be fun to have a longsword and impress Sab's love with her attempting to become as skilled as him.
    Everyone wins with it... Its not like it creates a abusive system as it cuts your ability to damage by a fair amount.
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #24 on: May 16, 2006, 03:40:54 am »
    Heh. A 20th level wizard with a longsword would fight like a 6th level fighter, without combat feats.
     

    iceyfire

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #25 on: May 16, 2006, 06:19:05 am »
    But not as well as she would with a staff weapon *Grins*.
     

    darkstorme

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #26 on: May 16, 2006, 07:06:20 am »
    On the other hand, a mage with a longsword just looks cooler - Gandalph springs instantly to mind.

    However, the big bone I have to pick (no pun intended) is indeed the crafting side of things.  I took the Martial Weapons proficiency feat to wield a pick for ore mining, when this really should not be necessary.  While discerning a type of ore is a skill, mining in the old pick-and-shovel sense is practically the basest form of unskilled labour.  Provided that the character's got the strength to lift the pick over their head, they ought to be able to mine.

    As an aside, since (I believe) both woodcutting and mining (and fishing) are damage-dependant, the crafting advantage garnered by this would be nullified by doing a -4 to damage.

    Oh, and @Makusa - in Count of Monte Cristo, he was referring to a rapier.  With a broadsword, a maul, a pick, a heavy mace, dire mace, or similar heavy weapon, speed has very little to do with AB.  (In fact, though it's obviously necessary for balance, barring tremendous physical strength for the broadsword-wielder, an unarmoured opponent with a dagger and rapier should, by rights, be able to take down a broadsword-wielding, plate-armoured opponent quite easily.)
     

    Talan Va'lash

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #27 on: May 18, 2006, 12:54:02 am »
    I'm gonna chime in again and say Stephen Zuckerman's essays about what AB means, what AC means, what damage means and what effects what are quite correct.

    As for speed and agility improving your defenses, that is why your Dex modifier is added to your AC and why tumble gives a syngergistic bonus to AC.  AB and the weapon you are weilding have nothing to do with your defenses (except when you are using the parry skill, which is a whole 'nother can o' worms.)
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #28 on: May 18, 2006, 12:23:32 pm »
    Thank you Talan... And very good point about DEX; I hadn't thought to put it like that.

    The thing we all have to remember is that the D&D combat system is abstract - it's not always an actual hit on a successful attack roll. HP don't just signify how many actual hits to your body you can take... They also represent luck, endurance, and plain ol' skill. A tiny cut across a fencer's neck could be a critical hit for 23 damage in a proper duel, in just the same way as a full-on whack with a quarterstaff could be just seven damage. The scale of the fight matters, as well, but for NWN, it's mostly irrelevant.

    However, the way the combat system works, mechanically, is the same no matter what medium you're playing through. -4 can be as much as a drop of 20% in one's chance to "hit." That constitutes a huge difference, no matter what level you're at. Perhaps a level 20 fighter can afford that against CR 9 creatures, but can even a level 12 rogue? Not usually. Still, there are times when the occasion warrants the sacrifice of 4 points of AB, in order to use a certain weapon. Why not incorporate this hak so that we can play those, instead of being limited by the game?

    That's all we want. Another element for RP.
     

    darkstorme

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 07:06:46 am »
    Just bumping this, because I don't want to (nor should I need to) burn another feat to use a gem mining pick.  Considering what is required to make tanning oils and other essentials, this cripples the Rogue in a CNR sense - no light weapons, just Rogue.  I took Martial because I needed metal for arrowheads, but burning feats for CNR doesn't seem RP-consistent.  This would be a great boon to CNR if it could be done compatibly.
     

    Gulnyr

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 07:39:14 am »
    Quote
    darkstorme - 6/6/2006  10:06 AM

    Just bumping this, because I don't want to (nor should I need to) burn another feat to use a gem mining pick.

    Try a gem chisel.
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 04:48:22 pm »
    I also have to agree about burning feats just to use a pickaxe. Why should someone who can cut a lizardfolk warrior to pieces with a giant metal toothpick not be able to use a pointy hammer to knock on rocks?
     

    Yamada

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    RE: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 06:14:44 pm »
    The only thing I can see with this feat, is the problem of crafting.
      At the moment, due to the feats and so on, its rare to find a single character who can do every single craft, and the problem that opens up with this is that, although a wizard may not be able to hit a tree as hard, or an iron vien as hard, a quick spell can get them hitting almost as hard as most fighters(although they wouldn't hit as often), and this might (I would say 'will' but you never know) cause certain characters, who before would have never thought about doing say...smelting as the character is a wizard, who is now open to pretty much every single craft.
      A fighter on the other hand would have the problem of not being able to do scribing due to their lack or spells, or enchanting at that matter, but it still opens up all of the crafts to those who would normally never even think of doing such a craft. Thats my only worry, as i'm pretty sure, no matter how much we all hope it won't, i'm pretty certain it will end up happening, and then you'd reach the point where crafters wouldn't need to rely on other crafters that are specialised in other area's as much....
       But then again I could just be talking aload of rubbish.  ;)
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Ideal Weapon Proficiency Changes
    « Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 06:36:29 pm »
    Sure, it would open up the crafting system like the throttle in my flying sims for a little while, but then what? People who don't really want to go getting CNR from various place will still pay others to do it. I don't generally head to the really low-level area where white mushrooms can be found; only when there's a major RP need for it. I don't generally go dig up sand and clay, or smelt my own ingots, or do any sort of woodcraft. (This is all as Pyyran... Neither of my other characters craft.)

    Sure, Pyyran has the ability to do all of those things. He just chooses not to. He can pay someone else to get the mushrooms, pay to have the nuggets he's buying smelted for him, pay for whatever wood products he needs... Admittedly, if Pyyran could mine, he'd start smelting things himself, but then you look at woodcraft. He COULD make his own bows. He COULD make his own arrows. It's just a lot of trouble he doesn't want to go to for something he'll use in two encounters down in Haven. Pyyran, who practices LOTS of alchemy, doesn't make his own healing potions. Why? Aloe's too much trouble to go get in quantity.

    No (single-classed) character will ever be open to every craft, even if they wanted to be. But really... Does a die-hard mercenary really want to spend his hard-earned jinks on crafting tools, spending his valuable time on making his basic needs? Does a battle-cleric of Vorax really need to sit around, making potions that his spells can do just as easily?

    Most wizards won't want to take the time away from thier studies to go whack at a rock. That's underling work, come on! Hire some dirty fighter to go do it.

    And why would a fighter want to sit around, making little rings, and potions, and other things, when they could be out earning glory on the battlefield?

    Honestly, there may be a few characters who genuinely want to pursue every craft. If they want to, let them. It's thier character.

    It just doesn't seem to make any sense that if a wizard really, really wanted to, he still couldn't take a few whacks at a rock with a pickaxe, without having intensive weapons training with all martial (or even simple!) weapons.
     

     

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