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Author Topic: Ideas to keep interest up NWN Layo  (Read 2911 times)

Guardian 452

Ideas to keep interest up NWN Layo
« on: December 04, 2013, 10:41:47 am »
After the post last night about the servers in jeopardy due to financial reasons I posted a little in that thread about what I thought are the best ways to help get interest up... which hopefully would get donations up. I want to continue those ideas... and hopefully other peoples ideas here, rather than clutter up that thread. First off I am a firm beleiver that the NWN version of Layo only has one chnace at a future, and that is in its past. Plast players to be more specific. You are going to have a hard time pulling people away from all the bigger, faster, more shiney MMO and gaming options available. But if you can rekindle that old flame in the people who made this place what it once was you can keep it alive.How to do that? I don't know for sure (though I will share my own ideas) but I do know every singler person who quit playing did so for a reason(s). What were they? Are they things we can fix? Have already fixed. Will consider fixing? Ideas to consider making permanent changes. Double the Fortune rate or more for people casual playing... IMO quest reward Fortune is pretty good now. Those fortunate enough to get on the very few quests these days are really racking up Fortune! Those who get to play alone or in a group for a couple hours... well... the rate now is next to worthless IMO.Double the EXP rate (or more) especially for players say under 15... I know we already adjusted the rate of EXP for the low end... it needs it more. It is just to daunting to grind away alone or a group grinding over and over at the same handfull of areas untill you finally get that "DING!"Reduce the 3 million gap from level 20 to 21. Put it higher than the gaps above 21 and so on... but under 3 million... its just silly! It had its purpose when people were literally becoming level 40 in a couple months. But now... it's just an incermountable wall.Remove the SS system. This system is outdated and no longer needed in this version of Layo. It too had its purpose when players did not respect death. But now... instead it has caused players to leave. It has caused players to not want to play for fear of a crappy dice roll. I know the % odds were changed and that is a good thing!!! But even that doesnt save you from a crappy dice roll and poof there goes your character you've invested months, YEARS creating and falling madly in love with.Increase the amount of high end CNR (more places to find it)... Decrease the difficulty and TIME required to reach it...  like Mithril & Emeralds... who has 3 to 6 hours to go for it?  Not many.. and not near as many as once did, clearly! ( Or put in a call home feature for all players) Do all the above and let the players who left know about it.....Get some GM events going again (get some GM's first).Continue to "improve" this version with new areas, items, content. I beleve you would see servers populated most hours of the day... instead of now where they are empty or next to empty.  I welcome others to share what they think would draw players back again as well!. 
 
The following users thanked this post: silverblades, Dorax Windsmith, Ravemore, Brutus_Clawfoot

Aphel

The question should not be
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2013, 10:47:29 am »

The question should not be what, how, or even who - it should be why?

 

Why should I invest my spare time here?

 

Nyralotep

In my case I dont have the
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 11:08:50 am »

In my case I dont have the ability to play tabletop RP although I would love to do so.  That leaves online and from what I have seen there is a real dearth of real RP online.  Maybe I havent been looking in the right places but Layonara has filled that role for me in the past and is doing so again.  Yeah it's an ancient game engine but that can be obviated by having a rich world that you can actually have a change to make an impact.

I've played a number of ARPG's but they all become grind fests at some point and eventually the only thing keeping you there is the people.  I've met some awesome people before when I was active and I've met more awesome people now that I'm back.  I like having a community where I can come and have my RP immersion from the comfort of my own home. 

I would like to see what G-452 has proposed be put into place.

At least that's my $0.02.

 

Guardian 452

Make these and or other
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 11:34:18 am »

Make these and or other significant changes... let new and especially OLD players know about it. If the place doesnt pick up in population, and in donations it is clear then that this version of layo is truly dead. What does anyone stand to loose in making such big changes at this point? 

 

If not.. I am 100% in agreement with CBnicholson from the other thread.

Quote from: "cbnicholson"&cid="2752204"

I say have a few send off x2 xp weekends and shut it down.  As someone who has been a long time donator, my opinion is that Layo is about done. Another round of donations is only going to delay the inevitable even if they amount to enough to keep it Layo running for the next few months.  I don't believe anyone has a particular onus against the team or the state of things ig, I just think many of us, myself included, have outgrown the world and possibly the system it runs on.   The changes like fortune have been nice, but from my perspective they haven't enticed me to play more nor do they seem to be having the desired effect on the vast majority of former/present players.    My 2 true.

 

 

miltonyorkcastle

One way to keep people
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 01:27:48 pm »

One way to keep people interested and playing: consistent content updates/additions- say, a new set of areas/new static quest/new playable race/new playable class/etc. every 4-6 weeks. Of course, to have this, you need someone who is constantly working on the modules and working with GMs to combine quests with new, spicy areas. And guess what? We don't have someone that does that or can do that at this time. We keep trying to find someone that is willing and able, and everytime we think we've done that, something happens and the person (usually for very good reasons) has to rather suddenly step away.

Another way is to have regularly scheduled quests every day, so people know they can hop in at the given time any week and find a quest in which to RP. Also, we (the GM team) are designing the next plot series in a manner such that each quest will be a stand-alone, meaning that even if you can't make every quest in the larger series, your character can start and finish one complete story via the quest. Imagine it like a TV series, where each episode has a beginning, middle, and end, and one episode can stand alone from the rest of the episodes in the season. That way if you can only make the one quest in a month, you don't feel like you're coming into a situation where you don't know what the heck is going on, and when it's over things don't just feel unfinished for you and your character.

Another way is to make it very easy and free to distribute, install, and run the interface (NWN). Well, the download is a little long, though easy to find. It's not free, but it's cheap. And the install? Erg. Maybe it runs, maybe it doesn't. I know a few tricks to get it to run on almost any system, but not everyone does, and after the first hour of trying to run the dang thing, most people just give up. Maybe we should try a new interface? Oh, right, we've been trying to build one for quite some time. If only we had more capable volunteers and time in a day, we might be done.

Okay, so clearly I don't stick around because of the interface (NWN) or the awesome new content to explore. Heck, I don't even really get to play in quests anymore. Why the duece am I even still around? Ah, right. Because I love to RP, I love stories (especially in sword and sorcery settings), and I am heavily invested in the Layonara world. I will keep creating stories for Layonara until I'm dead, I suspect. I run PnP Layo quests (in person! *gasp*), I run NWN Layo quests, and I am in the middle of writing modules and short stories and screenplays based in the Layo setting. If I could make a living just creating stories/content for Layo, I'd quit my current job in a heartbeat, and by the gods, y'all would see a serious amount of material start floating onto these forums. But I can't. So I keep working on stuff when I can.

I'm not here to play a video game. Which is probably the biggest reason why I'm still here.

 

Pen N Popper

Ahoy!Would there be interest
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 03:24:20 pm »

Ahoy!

Would there be interest in re-establishing a community on another gaming platform? I honestly don't have any suggestions, or preferences, to which game could be chosen. The goal would simply: Land somewhere where RP could happen effectively amongst the group. Having worked in the tech world for so many years, I know there is true value in having a core like-minded community. Find a niche problem to solve, drive a wedge into the crack, and expand.

Minecraft - Very attractive to a wide range of player ages, extensible, easy to tie servers together (you could build your own house interior running on your own tiny server).

roll20.net - Host GM quests in real pen-n-paper fashion, transferring XP and loot back to game server

There are so many game platforms out there on which to begin coating the sand with pearl. Let's have oyster!

Best wishes to all!

~PnP

 

P.S. Quick google: https://www.themanaworld.org/

 

Guardian 452

Milton touched on some other
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 03:31:00 pm »

Milton touched on some other points I was thinking of. Ive never been a huge fan of the long drawn out quest series... but I know several here love and live for them! Those are missing (less frequent than they once were)... but what is also missing. The random lost child, random attack by orcs, wild animals etc on a town. random pop in's jsut because we need tormented by whomever the big bad guy currently is. I remember a long long time ago when Llast was under seige.. it lasted for hours! Wave after wave.... laggy as H3LL but was it fun!

 

So even fixing some of the areas I talked about above will only go so far.... we need GM's. I dare say having a GM on about anytime more than say 2 people were on... adding a some color or spice here... having a sit down RP with some traveler there... etc. That stuff goes a long way! Not just being able to level up quicker or not loose my character cause I had my final crappy dice roll. And since Layo cant pay its GM's they need rewarded another way to make them want to GM! Dunno what that is yet... better XP rates, higher fortune rates... unique items?  a secret decoder ring?

 

.

 

Aphel

   I agree with milty.
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 03:51:07 pm »

 

 

 

I agree with milty.

 

Pen N Popper

Umm... you know what would
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 04:34:57 pm »

Umm... you know what would get me back? How about some RP here

http://forums.layonara.com/gallery/image/prealphassforestpng

Is the next-generation actually still in-progress? You'd being doing yourselves a big favor by figuring out how to fire up the belly of a sailing ship... then a deck... then another ship off the port bow! Attack! Then... what could be more exciting than a new story that literally starts from nothing, a simple ship, and grows in unknown directions.

Crikey I don't understand Layonara strategy at all!

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/ They've raised $34M and _won't release for a year_!

 

Aphel

I have tried that before,
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 04:50:57 pm »

I have tried that before, Pen, for world building/story writing. It can be interesting, and can go so horribly wrong at the same time. It's fun, tho, and lots of it. If you are into using the traveling spade of death a lot. And don't mind transitions from desert to jungle swept under the rug by exclaiming "It's MAGIC!" and adding another point to your \\\\TODO list that'll expand exponentially depending on your skill in making excuses.

 

 

Quote from: "Pen N Popper"&cid="2752232"

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/ They've raised $34M and _won't release for a year_!

I am not sure if that is just advanced trolling or actually enhanced interroga - marketing! - techniques for the whole EVE/X crowd.

 

Dorganath

OK, so you've made your
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 10:36:24 pm »

OK, so you've made your "demands" (original post), now tell me, reasonably, what you think would be acceptable.

I'm not committing to anything right now, but I have to say, I've coded in a lot of "gimmes" over the last year...upped XP rates for the low end (on the order of 3x what they were), introduced a 'something for nothing' system (well, sort of) I said I'd never introduce (a.k.a. Fortune) and yet among the first things requested for "keeping interest" are doubling of these gimmes.  Let me just say...I skeptical that even the doubling will be "enough". I thought about going into a mathematical rebuttal of the assertions made, but I'll let it lie and just say that there may be some merit in adjusting the low-end XP curves, but Fortune is not intended to let someone ramp up levels in a significantly faster manner. The steady-state rate is not meant to be earthshaking. It's meant to be more than you would have had otherwise, which was nothing. And to be honest, I've had pretty good feedback on Fortune in general. I even had one person tell me it "makes solo crafting worthwhile."  I guess it's a matter of opinion and perspective.

But I understand the point of your post at its core.  If you don't ask, you won't get.  So if we consider that list to be the "wouldn't it be awesome if..." options, how about some more realistic options? What would actually make more sense? What would make a reasonable difference, and could we revert things if you were wrong?

Would any of it really encourage more people to be in-game and RPing at any given moment?

 

Quote from: "Guardian 452"&cid="2752225"

Milton touched on some other points I was thinking of. Ive never been a huge fan of the long drawn out quest series... but I know several here love and live for them! Those are missing (less frequent than they once were)... but what is also missing. The random lost child, random attack by orcs, wild animals etc on a town. random pop in's jsut because we need tormented by whomever the big bad guy currently is. I remember a long long time ago when Llast was under seige.. it lasted for hours! Wave after wave.... laggy as H3LL but was it fun!

Brace yourself...I agree!

At least mostly.  The occasional long quest series can be engaging. I have developed a deep loathing of time bubbles though, except in extreme cases, and usually then, I'd prefer for the characters to be unplayable during those intervals rather than in a bubble.

But yes...random randomness...usually fun!

Quote
So even fixing some of the areas I talked about above will only go so far.... we need GM's. I dare say having a GM on about anytime more than say 2 people were on... adding a some color or spice here... having a sit down RP with some traveler there... etc. That stuff goes a long way! Not just being able to level up quicker or not loose my character cause I had my final crappy dice roll. And since Layo cant pay its GM's they need rewarded another way to make them want to GM! Dunno what that is yet... better XP rates, higher fortune rates... unique items?  a secret decoder ring?

I also agree with the bit about mechanical changes only going so far (see the first part of this post). Historically, they don't make a long-term difference but a spike.  People on the server draw people.  GMs on the server draw more people. More people on the server draw GMs more often.  It's kind of a circular dependence. I hear what you're saying very clearly, but it's also chicken-and-egg.  Players want to have GMs on more. GMs need players to be online to do anything.  If both are watching the Server Status waiting for one or the other, nothing happens! This is an inherent problem in a relatively small active community. It's not an "us" problem or a "you" problem, but a "we" problem.

As for giving GMs a bonus...I can do all these things (well, not sure about the decoder ring), but the question is: Will the community support this?

We have historically not rewarded GMs with anything for being GMs. This blanket policy prevents any sort of grousing about GMs getting kickbacks or special things or faster advancement or whatever.  Last year when I gave out GM rewards, I did everything up-front and in the collective eye of the community so there would be no question.  Overwhelmingly, the community supported the idea, but there were a few who thought that GMs did not deserve anything else.

So I'm not opposed to this kind of thing, if everyone's in agreement, but then I think the inherent problem is that it doesn't really encourage GMs being GMs more frequently. If anything, it gives a bias toward being logged in as their characters instead. In some ways this is good, but it doesn't necessarily lead to a greater in-game GM presence. Or maybe it does. I don't know.

You tell me!  Is this a good idea?

 

Dorganath

Pen N Popper wrote:Crikey I
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 11:18:10 pm »

Quote from: "Pen N Popper"&cid="2752232"

Crikey I don't understand Layonara strategy at all!

Like Aphel, I am really not sure what your intent with such commentary might be, but on the off-chance you're being serious...

The lapses in our development of the next generation of Layonara have had nothing to do with a "strategy", PnP. If you read my restart of the DevLog, you would know that the most significant component of delay in our next-generation projects have everything to do with significant impacts to the personal lives of the core team for making that next generation a reality.  Hopefully that isn't too hard to understand.

No one wants the next generation more than those of us who have been working toward that goal for quite some time.

 

Guardian 452

My initial post wasn't
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 01:20:26 am »

My initial post wasn't supposed to be demands.... But it looks like they were. Clearly people are still passionate about the place.... The mention of it closing and it's already funded for two more months. It really is a chicken and egg thing. People will draw people.... People will draw GMs, gms will draw people. I thought some (all) of those ideas or "demands" might kick start the cycle. I could see adding and reverting implemented ideas too.

 

Dorganath

Oh, I understand, and that's
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 08:54:52 am »

Oh, I understand, and that's why I put "demands" in quotes. It's like a negotiation...one starts at a point one considers "ideal" and the end result is some give-and-take after figuring out what works out best for all the involved interests.

In truth, I was hoping to some ideas that didn't involve wholesale hand-outs, because greater attendance only happens while those hand-outs are in effect. If made permanent, they become the new "normal", and people eventually get bored and uninterested in the normal.  Tell me honestly...if in 6 or 12 months you were still earning some increased amount of XP, would it still hold your interest, or would you be wondering when the next bonus event is?

Last time we did a Soul Mother holiday, it was supposed to last for....a RL year, I think maybe 6 months?  We lasted 2 months, because people went completely nuts, and the "Bindstone Express" became the preferred method of returning heavily encumbered from a mining trip.  We had people who were thrilled about the holiday begging us to put the Soul Mother back because any and all respect for death went out the door....rapidly. Players became reckless and other players often faced the unwanted consequences of such recklessness. So might it bring people back? Yes, possibly. Is it good for us long-term? Maybe...maybe not.

Would you (or anyone, really) like the option of choosing a lower chance of SS loss for a lower rate of combat XP vs. a higher rate of combat XP with an increased chance of SS loss, assuming you had the ability to select one or the other? Would such a trade-off be appealing?

I'm just looking for the middle ground.

 

Serissa

The server status page has
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 02:12:03 pm »

The server status page has been unreliable since we switched carriers, especially as to whether the newer characters show up.  Maybe a fix to that would help a little?

 

Guardian 452

I would choose any option
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 02:30:13 pm »

I would choose any option that had a lower or no chance for SS. This is just me of course. But if the trade off made character progression more stagnant than it is now I wouldnt even want that. so... i dunno.

The stagnent progression can be fixed... it can be fixed without much change to XP rates. We need more people playing. This world is solo unfriendly, always has been, most likely always will be. So the solution is more people playing... just need to figure out how to get to that solution now ;)

 

.

 

IceDragonDuvessa

I actually like the soul
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 04:01:08 pm »

I actually like the soul strands. The chance to get them is so low that to perm you would have to be both extremely careless AND unlucky. It adds a value to your character that you wouldn't have if there was no chance of losing it ever and the loss of a strand gives excellent opportunities for RP. Plus if you make it up to epic you can take that feat to give you 10 more.

 

That said for death I would like to see the xp penalty removed from the third death in 30 minutes. Its always been there, I know and I appreciate very much that death effects have been made less horrible but this one crushes me on my squishy leather wearing cleric. Ive lost at least 50K of that coveted xp. That loss inspired me however, to do some work on the mod a bit.

 

Before the untimely death of my computer I was working on tweaking lowbie area spawns to not need a full group and adding some static quests (that will include a couple new dungeons) in to help people get off the ground. I believe I WAS able to save the work I had done already which is exciting, but it will be a lil bit before I can get back at it.

 

miltonyorkcastle

I think the feat gives you
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2013, 04:04:21 pm »

I think the feat gives you five more strands, not ten, but yeah, any more you can get is worth it, heh.

 

Leanthar

"....As for giving GMs a
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 09:51:56 am »
"....As for giving GMs a bonus...I can do all these things (well, not sure about the decoder ring), but the question is: Will the community support this?
 
We have historically not rewarded GMs with anything for being GMs. This blanket policy prevents any sort of grousing about GMs getting kickbacks or special things or faster advancement or whatever.  Last year when I gave out GM rewards, I did everything up-front and in the collective eye of the community so there would be no question.  Overwhelmingly, the community supported the idea, but there were a few who thought that GMs did not deserve anything else...."
 
As Dorganath explained, this just will not work. In addition, I will not allow it to happen. There is no way I am going to put the team in the position of defending themselves for "rewards" for being a GM or a member of any of our teams. This would be a disaster waiting to happen and in the end will harm the community, something we try very hard not to do. Being a GM is it's own "reward" and I do not want the community thinking (even subconsiously) that our GM's are being rewarded "unfairly". 
 
"....That said for death I would like to see the xp penalty removed from the third death in 30 minutes..."
 
I will talk to Dorganth about this and we will go from there. 
 
As a note, I did not have time to read all posts as I am heading to work, so if I didn't quote or reply to your input that means that I missed it as I was doing a quick scan of this thread. I will come back to this thread and try to keep up with your input. Thanks.
 
 

mixafix

Never saw this thread till
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 09:39:23 am »

Never saw this thread till late so adding in the extended bonus time too, and throwing out some thoughts.

 

Fortune -

I like this as a system for encouraging those people on RPing, crafting, and doing other low xp reward activities not to feel left out of things. In the event a GM sees good stuff he can of course reward players as normal. I think the value is high enough and is a nod or token to those players doing low xp activities.  I see it as a minimum reward and not something for those already out bashing xps. Oh and really like the idea fortune can be used for all sort of other things so hats off to that thought!

Double the EXP rate 

not sure how much this would help, I prefer the  bonus events already used and perhaps another way for gaining reward during bonus events or at other times is  to reward achieving things rather than merely bashing during bonus times. A consideration here perhaps for future bonus events or indeed other times is to locate some special holiday points of interest - or of course a themed end of dungeon cache, providing some sort of rewards...perhaps fortune points. These could be dropped in to not so well used locations during special events - encouraging play where limited gm presence is possible but where players in all time zones can feel they are part of the one themed event. (so not just about xp bonus?)

Reduce the 3 million gap from level 20 to 21. -

dont mind the amount but never really got how it goes back down after one particularly hard level, especially as wldq are not really likely to happen to get by this so...yeah not advocating an easier journey, just one that does not have a disproportionate hurdle half way as it may be a turning point for some players.

Remove the SS system. -

I side with those that prefer SS risk to remain, though think something that increases as it goes has left a few high level characters sidelined but not forgotten. Not sure it is worth changing now but for old characters (in some cases really old *coughs at Guardian)  maybe some option  IG to recover a SS. (maybe they could invest some of those fortune points) Most modern characters I suspect have had it much easier and are pretty comfortable with the risk. 

Increase the amount of high end CNR (more places to find it)-

... I think the big runs are pretty essential, there are only a very few things where you can come away with your big PCs and go wow...so more power to them to be honest. I support systems/gm intervention  that allow players out of course who cannot complete with a particular group but feel that can be done pretty simply by pausing. (I spent 6 weekly sessions with one group on a dungeon run.....enjoyed that more than most things ive done ..so kudos to the big runs...the odd freshen up if time permitted would be icing on the cake.

Do all the above and let the players who left know about it-

well whatever is done we can all help by telling people so yeah. Just got to keep trying here - every one of us, we all gain from it,  right?

Get some GM events going again (get some GM's first).-

I get the chicken and egg thoughts around this but little or no GMs is not good and so even if a GM is chasing an audience if time permits I think it has to be worth trying, particularly in the non usa time zones where drop off is highest and gm activity lowest.

Continue to "improve" this version with new areas, items, content.- 

I see this as the hardest to fufill given all the time problems but every little change is surely appreciated - and simply done gms putting in the odd clue/treasure/encounter as a one off just by dropping them is quite doable at little effort given the fantastic longevity of server staying up.

 

So overall I appreciate the tweaking done this past while, particularly where there is  limited resources and severe demands on time. My goal would be maximum RP for minimum time over maximum xp for minimum time.

 

 

anything