Balancing suggestion

[blonde]

Who said the only way of protecting a fighter against spells is with pre-battle buffs? Counterspelling is another way. There are spells that would "disable" an enemy caster. Or you might outright kill the caster. Who said the mage should just sit back and let the fighter do all the fighting? It is a matter of playing your strengths and working together. And trust! ;-)

I strongly disagree with all the talk about making every class equal. This is not WoW or any other mindless hack'n'slash game. As a matter of fact, i would prefer the classes to be even more diverse. What is important for balance, is to make every class useful. And saying that fighters are not useful is complete craziness. I wouldnt like a trip through the underdark without a few fighters in front of me.

[Praylor Falcus]

I have always said the difference in the classes should be corrected. The fighter class is core and essential to the game, and it being anything but unrealistic. The explosion of "slingers" is and can only be explained by one thing.
 Layo's low magic delusion, and unjust class discrimination is very evident and correctable with a few easy changes.
 
  One that comes to mind is to simple tie the death thread system to the classes hit die type. Thus a slinger would have but four threads, while the current discriminated class would have the extra threads of their class (this of course would have to be done retroactively to make a difference to the world, (can you hear the slingers whining fighters, Good they now know how we feel)
 
 The above solution would also have the effect of the magic users protecting their front line and making sure they are kept alive, Not just kept alive till the objective is at hand then letting them die (I've seen this happen on many occasions)
 
 The fighter as i said is the core and most basic element of the game (and yes it is a game, not a chat room with pretty avatars) I mean did King Aurthur, go into battle with a army of merlin's, no the slinger was unique and thus was an asset to the fighters, not the skewed version we have here. In the lord of the rings was the battle won by a army of mages, or was their presence manifest in one or two beings the predominate force being the fighters and support classes.
 
 Which brings me to gear, Fighters are restricted in what they can and can't use in this unrealistic argument of balance, when all that is accomplished is unbalance, class favoritism and rendering the core basis for the game moot. What as always struck me as odd is the fact that if we have all these super mages why are they not able to enchant gear for fighters, we have proof it does exists in the helms of armor and necklaces and belt of various types. But what of the shield and other gear a fighter carries, My point is this if I have a shield and can go to a mage and tell him what i want on it (as was possible in even the earliest versions of D&D), That mage would research the required componets and figure their time and effort and tell the fighter..."You want "X" on this shield, this is what i require, "X" coins, and "X,X,X,X components". This would allow for greater role play and allow the fighter to supplement their weaknesses to narrow the gap between the classes.
 
 This of course bring us to the new age, unrealistic solution of level restrictions on fighter gear. I have tried to think of a real world equivalent of this and most i can come up with are absurd at least, case in point , Driving a car. Under layo standards a character could only, till they were 12 seasons old only be able to drive a compact car, to try to even open the door of a mid sized vehicle would result in god knows what (as this is never explained) Would the unlucky camper explode ? , would it discharge a devastating electrical shock ? These are questions i have of this, as it is known to me that drops are configurable, and stores are as well.....the excuse that we can't have a 1st level character running around in +5 plate is lame, and is the responsibility of GM's to catch such abuses and correct them. To remain at the current level of discrimination the only just action would be to retard the pace of which slingers get their spells , to better bring them in line with the restriction placed on the fighters at present. This of course would have to be done retroactively as well to bring the current explosion of slingers in line with the low magic persona that is alluded to when one reads the server info.
 
 Now i know there is gonna be the mournful moans of those that have enjoyed this skewed playing field and many might be brought down to realistic levels with other players , but that is what is needed so as to make each of us rely on each other , not promote uber mage hoarding parties on east and central were the most basic and core element of the game is shut out and left to be nothing more than mage tenders at early stages and watch their protectorates wander off to glorious days as they are trapped to obscurity on east and occasional trips to central when a slinger feels like slumming it with the rift raft of the server.

[ycleption]

I came to this server because I enjoy roleplaying a character. Sure, there's a certain amount of class imbalance, so what? I would far rather play a somewhat less powerful character that I enjoy, than fret over whether the class I chose is as strong as other people's. If a certain class is useless, that's a problem, but I don't think that's the case.
Yes, there are arbitrary, and somewhat unrealistic game mechanisms, such as item level requirements, but I think that you can easily come up with RP reasons if you try (it's too heavy, I have not built up enough callouses, its arcane power is beyond my understanding, such an object of power is prohibited to one of my low rank, etc.) It's a lot easier to RP with the mechanics, than to try and rp against them. It's a game. If you are worried about being a powerful character, than play the class that you think is powerful. Otherwise, enjoy your character for what it is, and don't worry about what it could be if it were a different class.

[Tialle Dianesis]

  One that comes to mind is to simple tie the death thread system to the classes hit die type. Thus a slinger would have but four threads, while the current discriminated class would have the extra threads of their class (this of course would have to be done retroactively to make a difference to the world, (can you hear the slingers whining fighters, Good they now know how we feel)

The only class I've played on Neverwinter nights and understood the most is the wizard class. From my experience this class is the least likely to die in a battle gone horribly wrong. All good mages know that when the frontline dies it's time to either:
A) Scatter and run
B) Start saving people left and right with invisibility/darkness spells.
C) Summon a creature to distract the enemies while the rest of the group runs away to safety.

Or just do all of the above.

Knowing this I can't help but agree with your suggestion except the part about limiting the mages to 4 soulstrands.... Let's bargain for 8, mhm?

[miltonyorkcastle]

Let me touch on the notion of "low magic" briefly, if I may.

First, let me say that I am deriving my understanding of this issue from Uncle Figgy's guide to magic in RPG worlds. (feel free to Google "Uncle Figgy" though it seems that while he is referenced many times, his original website is gone.)

Now, to qualify myself, I've played both fighters and casters extensively. I have explored a great deal of the world. I am familiar with crafting, magical items, item availability, etc. I am extremely familiar with DnD and NWN in general.

It seems to me that the original layout of the world was designed to be a low magic/high magic world. What this means is that the availability of magic is low (low magic), but magic itself is very powerful (high magic). Basically, getting your hands on magic items and making magic items is expensive and very difficult. The spells and potential abilities of magic items, however, are high in strength.

So, when Layonara was advertised as a "low magic" world, it meant that the availability of magical gear, potions, etc., was low, not that the magic itself wasn't powerful. In fact, really, the magic in NWN is powerful to begin with, so making a world using the NWN engine as a basis means you will have powerful magic, unless you limit spell progression, take out high level spells, etc. Essentially, unless you completely alter the spellcasting classes, magic in NWN will always be powerful. And as has been discussed previously many times, "we" aren't really willing to start totally re-defining the spellcasting classes.

So, when Leanthar mentions that we are moving to a "medium magic" world, what he really means is that we're moving to a medium magic/high magic world. Magical items and gear are becoming more available and it's less expensive to get more powerful items.

Now, because magic is so powerful, and we aren't willing to change NWN magic anymore than it is already, the fact of the matter is, and will always be, that casters are more powerful than fighters when stripped down to their skivvies. Magic is powerful, so those that can use it are powerful. Plain and simple. What does this mean? It means that the game itself is inherently unbalanced. It means that the classes are inherently unbalanced. It means that without a drastic overhaul of magic, and indeed the game itself, the classes will always be unbalanced. Always.

Does this mean that fighters are useless? As pointed out earlier in this very thread, the answer to that is a resounding "no." Casters always prefer to have warriors with them. It makes the fighting so much smoother and faster.


I'm pretty sure this has been suggested before, and shot down, but if you want to decrease the amount of magic in the world (not decrease the power of the magic, simply the amount), you can place restrictions on the number of casters that are approved, perhaps similar to the restrictions that sometimes come down on the special races and alignments (need to have played on Layo so many months, need to have a character of a certain level, etc.). But, as I've said before, that idea has been consistently shut down, in part because without the caster classes, there really isn't very many starting classes to choose from. Another option is to treat caster classes as prestige classes, but that falls under many of the same issues already mentioned.

[Praylor Falcus]

Thank you , you people are proving my point exactly. There is a problem and you admit it. It is not like the fighter classes are asking for special treatment , just a level playing field. Watching fighters beg slingers for buffs before battle, is what fun to you, you think this makes that fighter feel comfortable with their character that they have to beg for assistance from the slingers to be able to go into battle? This is what this means to you ?
 
 I thought this server was to encourage group play and a sense of community? The current system creates division and dependence upon a select few. I have played both classes and looked at it from both points of view, the gap is vast and i can understand those that have attained the level of self sufficiency not being willing to give it up, but i ask you to try to see it from the other guy's/gal's point of view for a second. I don't want my sorcerer to loose any of his powers or be handicapped either, it's the nature of the game, but as is stated adnausium in these very forums "if it doesn't seem right or feels unrealistic, then it is probably best to not do it". Thus we are left with one of two solutions, three if you count blow smoke and say" we can't do nothing" 1) reduce the gap from the high side (ie reduce spell count or number of living slingers. 2) Remove restrictions and introduce class specific items to assist said classes to be able to close the gap with said high side players.
 
 We know this can be done with a simple tick in the item creation tool and these items placed in environments conducive with the said classes, (ie wolfwood for ranger items) or as something we are using in a project I am currently assisting with, socketed items , to allow for player customization of said items, and yes the new age level requirements are in effect there as well , we are working on it and feel the level requirement can be removed as soon as we can target all areas and limit the level of the drops , a lot of work yes and worth it as well.
 
 In closing, You yourselves admit their is a gap, we the fighters ask merely that it be narrowed, if not bridged. So we can stand beside you on the battle field not huddle around you and hope you have enough magic for all. For where is the dignity in that, and were is the fundamental mind set of the front line warrior, self sufficiency, pride in ones own abilities, without the myriad of buffs required to raid a goblin camp by a double digit level character. I know deep seated mindsets and sacred turf is hard to take and this may be a battle that will rage for months in these forums, but it is a fight worth the effort and the dignity of all is at stake.

[miltonyorkcastle]

My earlier post was an objective one meant to help explain the issue. That being done, I now have a subjective rebuttal to Praylor's (and others') preference of "narrowing the gap" in power between fighters and mages.

I, personally, do not want the gap narrowed. So, naturally, here's why:

1) I knew the classes were unbalanced when I started playing this game. I played it anyways. I like the differences, in ability and "balance."

2) I think having unbalanced classes is realistic. Setting aside the obvious that this is a game and fantasy and all that, we do strive to give it some touch of reality so we can connect to the world. And reality is unfair, unbalanced, and downright mean. But the funny thing is, we all still need each other, and in DnD, all the classes will need the help of the other classes at some point or another... otherwise the class wouldn't exist.

3) This goes back to how I like the differences in the classes, but I like that some fighters are insecure about the fact that in many situations they need magic, and more specifically a mage, to survive. I like it that some fighters feel the use of magic is undignified or degrading to their personal sense of pride. But since I like it, that means I don't really want to see that change. And really, if you look at it, by using magic items, the fighter is still indirectly relying on a mage's power, since most magic items must be made by a caster, especially the powerful ones. Of course, there are many fighters that aren't insecure about the fact that they need magic to win, and simply accept it. Perhaps such warriors realize that using magic and magical items to fight a mage is like cleverly turning the mage's primary weapon against the mage.

4) When it somes to monsters... well, they're monsters. In my opinion, they're supposed to be scary and magical and hard to kill. It's what makes them monsters. And since monsters are magical creatures, it makes sense, at least in some ways, that it requires magic to kill many of them, especially the nastier ones.

Overall, I'm not interested in trying to create some sort of balancing act between the classes. I like it how it is. Every class has its place, and to be completely honest, I know of several monsters that an epic mage can't solo, and, in fact, needs the help of epic fighters to defeat. Though, I do have to admit, those same monsters can usually be solo'd by clerics. Usually.

Disclaimer: I do believe in "balance" in so far as it can prevent abuse. I'm not interested in abuse any more than I'm interested in making all the classes "equal." I think y'all know what I mean.

[Chongo]

There's a lot going on regarding this 'issue', so don't think it unnoticed.  Now I put issue in quotations, because I'm wholeheartedly with blonde on the idea that classes are not meant to be equal.
 
 So let me give you two summarizing points to consider in all of this:
 
 - Classes should retain their power, or flair, or whatever makes them exciting and special.  This means that nerfs, in general, are not a fun thing for anyone playing that class.  So empowering and bring out the flavor and diversity of every class I believe is a key goal.
 
 Adversely...
 
 - This is a group-play based server.  The intention is that people rely on each other to survive to promote grouping up.  That said, a group of 4 mages can do anything they want.  A group of 4 fighters are no better off then just one.  This is an issue that deserves some notice in general balancing and the way we build.
 
 So, there needs to be an empowering of classes on all sides, not taking away from any of them.  This is to keep things fun and exciting and not steal away from someone or something to meet the lowest common denominator.  But, there needs to be an effect somewhere, somehow, which causes the reliance to shift in all directions for a group.
 
 And in my opinion, the solution is there, it's being worked on, and it will make things better for everyone.  So just have some faith in that.  There's a lot of discussion on multiple aspects of this, and we all just need to maintain some faith that there is change coming, it shouldn't take away from any one class, but it should promote the core values of group play on Layonara.  That's my take on what's happening at least.
 
 Additionally, I'm not going to go into detail on this, but there is definitely going to be a time and a place for those lonely and neglected blades for those PC's in that feeble feeling, 16-23 level range.   It's coming and it's going to be fun.
 
 So keep your heads up, stay motivated, and polish your weapons.  O.o

[Dorganath]

I'm not really going to get involved in the details of this overall conversation.  There are some good points, some not-so-good points and some simply impractical points.  For now, I leave those groupings undefined and an exercise for the reader.

What I do want to say though is a few things:

1) The unbalance that is perceived at higher levels is exactly reversed at lower levels.  Some may say "so what?" well...if you're going to close the gap, why not close all the gaps?  But does this make sense?

2) Balance discussions of Class A vs. Class B come up from time-to-time.  The problem is that comparing any 2 classes in inherently flawed because the proper, ideal balance involves using several classes in concert.

3) NWN is simply unbalanced period, because it was designed as a single-player game with multi-player capabilities.  Because of this, magic was made very powerful.  We've done a lot to reduce the power of magic, and sure, perhaps we could do more but then if we look closer, and surely if we start taking many of these suggestions into account, we see that it's not just magic that needs adjusting, but everything...and I mean everything...fighters, casters, rogues and everything in between.

4) The adjustments to items that are "just a tick in the toolset"...we have over 4000 items in our item palette...probably 1/3 of those are things like armor, weapons and other usable combat-related. So yes, it's relatively easy, but it's also non-trivial.

Some of the  above suggestions, as I said, are good and valid, but the thing that needs to be understood is that by making those changes, other things get unbalanced, and so there's give and take.

Now please, continue the discussion, keep it constructive and don't take a lack of action on any of this as apathy or complacency, only in that it is a very big job for a big game world such as this, and in an all-volunteer effort, the teams do what they can, but we can't do everything.

Balance is a huge issue, and it's usually a process.  This world has been balancing for years, and it will continue.  So please, keep up the suggestions.

But a request...I sense some bitterness, some accusations and some general negative emotions being expressed in this thread.  Let's please keep things constructive and objective.

[Hellblazer]

As someone mentioned above, a mage and a fighter or some combination of mages and fighters really don't make much of a party because a mage really can't protect a fighter from the nastier creatures out there. When the monsters start throwing out harm and meteor swarm and various other high end spells, you either have a cleric to cast Spell Resistance, or the fighters die. If you look at the spells available to mages, they can give a lot of nice buffs and protections against mid level monsters. They can protect themselves extremely well with shadow shield and spell mantle. They can outright kill a lot of monsters with Wail and Weird. But they can't really do much to protect the fighters.

The cleric on the other hand can protect and heal and can, through domain spells, pick up a few of the buffs that are normally only available to mages. Thus it seems like the cleric really is at the center of forming any party headed east. It may be frustrating for the fighter that the mages aren't running around with him, but it is the cleric that is the key to him forming a party. If as part of the spell balancing Spell Resistance was added to the mages spell list as some of the offensive spells were toned down, I think the mages would be much more useful in small parties of 3 or 4.

I think most mages would agree that Weird and Wail wouldn't be so attractive if there were other alternatives to cause meaningful damage in a high level fight. This really gets back to the overall spell balancing that Ozy talked about and I agree that it is a major project. I wish the team good luck in this project and I'm happy to wait for it.

Ok time to take down that myth.

I know its late but lets make a little comparison spell wise. All these spells can be casted on a fighter, from either a cleric or mages, to enhance them.


spell|CLeric|Casters (s/w)
|||
Resistance|yes|yes
endure elements|yes|yes
entropic shield|yes|no
protection from aligment|yes|yes
shield of faith|yes|no
magic weapon|yes|yes
Mage armor|no**|yes
see invisibility|no|yes
resist elements|yes|yes
Bull's strength|yes|yes
Cat's grace|no**|yes
eagle's splendor|yes|yes
endurance|yes|yes
Fox's cunning|yes|yes
owl's wisdom|yes|yes
ultravision|yes|yes
clarity|yes|yes
haste|no**|yes
Magic circle agains aligment|yes|yes
negetive energy protection|yes|no
protection from elements|yes|yes
darkfire|yes|no
greater magic weapon|yes|no
keen edge|no|yes
Magic vestment|yes|no
Stonskin|No**|yes
freedom of movement|yes|no
death ward|yes|no*
Spell resistance|yes|no
true seeing|yes|yes
mass haste|no|yes
protection from spell|no|yes
regenerate|yes|no
mind blank|no|yes
blackstaff|no|yes|* can be given with a scroll
** Clerical domain can give it

What is a buff?  A buff is a spell that will enhance the person it is casted on.

Taking that into account, and not taking into account the clerical domain, there is 10 buffs a cleric can not give vs 10 a mage can not give.

Why am I not taking the domain into account? Simple. One domain does not give the same spells properties as the other domain vs that all mages can use the full array of arcane spells (if the mage didn't make the same mistake i did with rain).

Also I did not take the healing spells into account in this chart for this reason.

What is a healer?  it is someone who takes his time to improve the health of someone. Clerics have automatic healing casting ability (doesn't need to be memorized) Mages don't. Thats true, but with belts, potions and healing kits. ANY one can be a healer. On an other note I personally feel automatic casting is a double sided blade. If you use any healing spell you use one casting charge of an other spell of the same level.

So with this post that is quite late I am sorry, I was quite busy, i show that both clerics and mages are excellent party buffers, and both can act as healer too.

Heck with UMD even a rogue can be a party buffer and healer.

[lonnarin]

I never really felt noncaster classes were that underpowered on this server, but of course my highest lvl character is a dwarven defender with almost 300hp.  Sure it's nice to run around soloing everything as a wizard, but we're comparing the dynamics here of one class vs another, which is a systematic fallicy.  Far more powerful than the battle cleric is the tough as rocks fighter, who just happens to have a Sorcerer, rogue, priest and bard in his pocket.  Maybe the battle cleric can reach many places on his own that any of the other-mentioned classes cannot, but its a sure bet he's going to fail when a GROUP of those characters succeed.  What's the point of being a fighter-mage when you can be a Bjornigar who knows Skabot?  Shorter spell durations, less powerful spells and lower hitrolls and hitpoints is your biggest reward there.

Also, it was mentioned earlier that some folks don't bring drastically lower level characters with them as a point of not allowing them to leech.  Do not underestimate the usefulness of a lower level character however, who holds key skills which you do not!  I would gladly take big beefy Bjorn into many areas around Dregar with a team of 8-12 level rogues or wizards solely because I know how to organize them so that they will make a difference.  You might scoff at the effectiveness of a lvl 10 rogue, but truthfully, a constant 1d8+5d6 damage is still a beutiful thing at any level.  So long as the lower levels are doing most of the offensive work, I don't mind throwing myself intot he frontline and playing steel wall for them.  Take Willy and Bjorn for example...  lvl 18 defender and a lvl 11 rogue.  Now if Bjorn goes out ot Hurm for goldmining, he can usually take 3-4 giants in a row before having to fall back and start healing.  With Willy backing him up however, the ogres drop significantly quicker, and just by fighting smarter they can usually clear the whole area without healing more than once or twice.  There truly is a profound difference in taking them along!  My other friend Az-Ptol is around 10-11th level wizard... now I know, that sounds "weak".  But the cold hard fact is that a fighter with a low level wizard fights much better that a fighter just by himself, or ven a high level wizard if he coordinates the tactics correctly.  As a higher level melee combatant, I would GLADLY bring along a weak mage for mining or patrolling, even if he simply cast a handful of spells and stayed invisible to loot for me.  He is still making a difference.

So take heart ye of low levels...  you are still useful even if the anti-social purist casters sprinting off into the wilderness by themselves don't think so.  Even low level rogues serve their purpose; it doesn't take all that many skillpoints or levels to at least flag a deadly trap so the party doesnt keep stepping in it!

Far more useful are those lower level characters with good RP skills!  I would rather have a "useless" low level rogue with me with a good sense of humor and conversational wit about him than a jack-of-all-trades superstar hybrid caster.  Even when you throw all combatative skills out the window, odds are the average 10th level rogue is still smarter and more silver-tongued than my dwarf, so on the off-chance we have an opportunity to parley rather than fight, the rogue pays his usefulness ten-fold.

Server rules aside, I have always and will continue to group with people despite their overall build and level.  It's offensive to me to call such characters "useless", no character is useless.  With a little training and skill in tactics learned, even a 2nd lvl commoner can be useful in battle, running around dropping healing potions on the party.  The trick is to make certain that every character has a function in the scheme... sitting back and leeching of course is just poor form.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Server rules aside, I have always and will continue to group with people despite their overall build and level.  It's offensive to me to call such characters "useless", no character is useless.  With a little training and skill in tactics learned, even a 2nd lvl commoner can be useful in battle, running around dropping healing potions on the party.  The trick is to make certain that every character has a function in the scheme... sitting back and leeching of course is just poor form.

Repeated for emphasis and the fact that I can't press Thanks a billion times.