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Author Topic: Luring  (Read 747 times)

Dremora

Luring
« on: May 11, 2011, 03:50:30 pm »
On the subject of Luring, which has been brought to my attention recently as illegal (sorry for forgetting it from the rules, thats my fault I admit). :(

The purpose of luring is in order for players, when they cannot handle a full blown spawn, to pull in one or more that they are capable of handling in order to successful hunt/grind whatever you wanna call it in an area.

While yes, this is an abuse of AI mechanics and this is an RP server as opposed to a PvP or Arena one. I would like for the team to please consider relaxing the rule in situations where a player is alone or with a friend so luring one or more becomes acceptable. Especially alone where no one is around to RP anyway. If you are thinking a GM may be watching, well then if the GM is busy, then they likely won't be paying too much attention anyway and if not, im sure they'd likely change things abit or spark an impromptu if they are watching what a loner is up to.

Before you all scream No.. hear me out.

Layonara, while very rich in quality of RP and its lore, is somewhat lacking in activity, I mean the most I've seen when a big quest isn't running is about 8-10. This usually around American timings or so. Alot of the time the server IS empty or maybe with one to three online.. or maybe its just when im about, whatever thats not the issue. The point is its true atleast for some of us.

When you are on your own with nothing to do, it stands to reason you might want to spend time getting xp from a worthwhile source. Not everyone likes crafting and some characters dont craft as apart of their RP.
Some spawns ARE simply too hard to take full on without company, and when you dont have company, this rule means we either cheat.. or we have to settle for something quite repetive and not worth the effort.
Not to mention, that revisiting a place over and over is ALSO not realisitc because it would take more than a week ingame for an area to recover from an extermination (day in RL?). They are recovering in 5 minutes.
Opening up where a player can go only means they get in some variety should they get bored of an area (believe me, I do).

Its basically: no harm is being done to anyone if the group RPs their lures.. and no harm is being done to anyone if a lone guy/girl is just trying to find something worthwhile to do.
Its about fun and good RP.. so if you take out RP because there's no one to RP with, you are only holding back fun due to a flawed game's mechanics and a rule that centralizes around the idea of "what if it was real" i.e RP. If there is RP to be had, why does it matter about mechanics so long as RP is there on the grind and everyone's enjoying themselves.

Yes the server seems to doing just fine as it stands, im just trying to make a suggestion I feel might help a little. Please consider it.
 
The following users thanked this post: lonnarin, Pen N Popper, Mooneyes

Xaltotun

Re: Luring
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 04:54:31 pm »
Dremora has given me cause to go and look for any guidance on luring monsters out of a group to attack them in a more tactically sound position but I can't find anything so would be obliged if someone could post any link(s) for me to look up.

I did find an entry under Player Rules: Exploiting enemy A.I. and Game Mechanics where it says:
Quote
Invisibility, sanctuary, greater sanctuary and similar spells should also be used appropriately, and never used to exploit creature AI or bypass spawns when it does not make sense to do so.


I guess this applies to hiding in shadows, Hiding in Plain Sight as well, so my question would be: when would it make sense to use these spells/abilities (q.v.)? A spell caster routinely uses invisibility to avoid combat and/or detection and the hole raison d'etre behind the shadowdancer is to hide in plain sight, so if these spells/abilities are not to be used when it does not make sense to do so, it would help enormously to know when such circumstances arise otherwise shadowdancers will be become a shadow of their former selves.

Dremora raises some excellent point in my opinion and I also find that when I am in-game, the server is empty and I am on my own. Under these circumstances, it seems inane to rp when you are alone, so again, some guidance/relaxation/understanding would make an enormous difference.

I have tried to keep to Dremora's point and not go wandering off-topic so hope that I have achieved this and added to his post.
 

Dremora

Re: Luring
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 05:09:11 pm »
Just to chime in on it, since HiPs can be disabled and it hasnt been and isnt a spell, your probably safe mate. A SD is capable of melding right before a person's eyes even in the RP world. Just appear, sneaksneaksneak, run hide, return sneak sneak sneak on another side. Rinse repeat unless there is a timer rule on the HiPs I am unaware of (you cant re-hide until said time is up).
 

Guardian 452

Re: Luring
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 05:17:24 pm »
I think getting a definate, black and white, carved in stone.... "do this" ... "Dont do that" is next to impossible. Unless you want to come down with any luring, of any single, double creatures from a larger encounter is luring and therefor breakign the rules. If so you pretty much kill every chance at anyone doing anymore solo travel in the game with the intent of gaining XP.

Is luring abused? Im sure it can be abused, heck I lured things even with my EPIC ranger (cause he is too weak compared to other classes... yeah another can of worms there I know).  Show me a game of this kind where people don't lure to some extent. Any i've experienced luring happens.

Now the whole other question about invisibility, g-sanc, HIPS (Hide In Plain Sight) etc only when its appropriate and not to pass by spawns..... really? Lets see... im out by myself and I see a pack of whatever that I clearly cant handle yet they are in the way of what I want or where I want to go... anyone can justify using methods to get past unseen.

These kinds of things are huge grey areas in my oppinion. I guess best answer I can give.... if what you doing feels like its wrong or cheating the system... It probably is.

Some game worlds ive seen have systems in place to help with luring....
Example- cave full of kobolds. If you shoot one inside the cave room... all of them come running. NWN kinda does this too I beleive.

Look at it from the monster side. Even the dumbest ogre is gonna see his comrade pick up his axe and run off screaming and go see what is going on..... unlike how the GAME AI works where they just keep roaming like idiots untill its their turn.


So yeah..... beats me what the answer is. Hard and fast rules or a little understanding within reason.

G-452
 

ycleption

Re: Luring
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 06:43:54 pm »
The general rule on "exploiting mechanics" covers luring.

Quote from: Dorganath
Unfortunately, due to game mechanics, there's a very fine line between "smart tactics" and "abuse of AI".
  Picking one creature at a time out of a group because of perception limits is borderline abusive at best. Bringing the whole spawn into an ambush can be considered smart tactics. Getting creatures trapped by geographic features is abuse of AI. I think you can see a pattern emerging.  :)
  The best gauge here is common sense. Or perhaps a simple question: Does this feel wrong or like cheating?
  If the answer there is "yes" then you probably should not be doing it.
 

Dremora

Re: Luring
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 07:13:34 pm »
Gentle reminder ycleption but we already know what the rule is about whats abusing AI and what is smart tactics, this thread has nothing to do with clarity, its got to do with removing or loosening the rule on Luring. :)
 

Acacea

Re: Luring
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 10:23:28 pm »
I think ycleption was responding to Xaltotun.

Quote from: Xaltotun
Dremora has given me cause to go and look for any guidance on luring monsters out of a group to attack them in a more tactically sound position but I can't find anything so would be obliged if someone could post any link(s) for me to look up.
 

Zoogmunch

Re: Luring
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 12:56:12 pm »
For the sake of clarity does Grendola Pigstrotter standing on a mound shouting COOOEEE! to monsters at the top her lungs count as luring?

I do hope not as it winds Nym up a treat.



Zoogmunch
 

lonnarin

Re: Luring
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 02:01:24 pm »
Grovel thought this was mating ritual?
 

Dremora

Re: Luring
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 12:44:31 pm »
Would appreciate the input from the Team when they are able to reply.
 

Dorganath

Re: Luring
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 11:59:09 pm »
OK, I've monitored this thread and read through all the arguments. I have to say, I am not personally motivated to change the luring rule at this time. I would even say that it's already "relaxed".  To quote ycleption quoting me:

Quote from: Dorganath
Unfortunately, due to game mechanics, there's a  very fine line between "smart tactics" and "abuse of AI".
  Picking one creature at a time out of a group because of perception  limits is borderline abusive at best. Bringing the whole spawn into an  ambush can be considered smart tactics. Getting creatures trapped by  geographic features is abuse of AI. I think you can see a pattern  emerging.  :)
  The best gauge here is common sense. Or perhaps a simple question: Does this feel wrong or like cheating?
  If the answer there is "yes" then you probably should not be doing it.

I'm all for good, sound tactics. I'm absolutely against abuses of AI.  It is a fine line, and it's a line that moves.  To loosen it further or remove it completely would invite the sort of abuse that we don't really want to see.

It's all about good judgment and common sense...about what seems reasonable in a given situation and what seems wrong.  I think most of us know that line instinctively.  We look at patterns, overall.  We don't ban or even reprimand someone for a single or even a rare happening. We do, however try to correct patterns of negative behavior.  People should not assume that GMs are always breathing down their necks waiting for them to mess up.  We're not.  However, people should assume we could be watching at any time, and keep that in mind when deciding whether or not something is OK to do in any given circumstance.

Since other sorts of play-style/behavioral things were brought up, I might as well address them. Again, personally, I'm pretty unhappy with the way certain things are used by some people.  Greater Sanctuary has been at the top of my list of things I'd probably rather see gone, because of the way people simply ignore its nature and use it as just one more advantage.  It's a superlative form of Invisibility here, which cannot be detected by normal or magical means.  Yet parties of people run out of the Deep under G. Sanc., talking in the Party channel while they run past monsters and interacting as if they weren't invisible at all.  Game mechanics makes PCs under G. Sanc visible to other PCs,  but they shouldn't be.  

That point aside, people should not be using Invisibility, Stealth, HiPS or G. Sanc. (or any combination thereof) to avoid all but the last spawns around the more difficult CNR or, as the rules state, when it doesn't make sense to do so.  No, we're not going to give a case-by-case list. Again, it falls into the category of good judgment, and in my opinion, some people have exhibited poor judgment in the use of G. Sanc.

Quote
I guess this applies to hiding in shadows, Hiding in Plain Sight as  well, so my question would be: when would it make sense to use these  spells/abilities (q.v.)? A spell caster routinely uses invisibility to  avoid combat and/or detection and the hole raison d'etre behind the  shadowdancer is to hide in plain sight, so if these spells/abilities are  not to be used when it does not make sense to do so, it would help  enormously to know when such circumstances arise otherwise shadowdancers  will be become a shadow of their former selves.
Mentioning a Shadowdancer's abilities here is a poor example.  After all, they're called Shadowdancers.  This refers to their ability to move in and out of concealment, even when there is little concealment to be had. They are elusive, quick and perhaps a little mysterious.  They can "disappear" in the blink of an eye or sometimes even without the blink. This is most commonly and most powerfully demonstrated in combat situations as Shadowdancers can move in and out of sight, striking often and repeatedly by surprise. This is an example of when it makes sense to use this sort of ability.  When it does not make sense is using HiPS (or even regular stealth) and walking through half the Deep to get to the Emerald chamber only to appear and fight the last few creatures guarding the CNR.  It does not diminish the class at all to say that this is not an appropriate use, just like it doesn't diminish the Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard classes by saying it's not an appropriate use of Invisibility and G. Sanc. The only difference between HiPS and stealth mode is that you can use HiPS in combat. How well someone is hidden still depends on the Hide and Move Silent skills. HiPS just makes it easier to become hidden.

Quote from: Guardian 452
I think getting a definate, black and white,  carved in stone.... "do this" ... "Dont do that" is next to impossible.  Unless you want to come down with any luring, of any single, double  creatures from a larger encounter is luring and therefor breakign the  rules. If so you pretty much kill every chance at anyone doing anymore  solo travel in the game with the intent of gaining XP.

Exactly, which is why I have said for people to use their judgement. It's flexible, allows room for mistakes while still expecting a certain level of maturity in decisions.

Quote
Is luring abused? Im sure it can be abused, heck I lured things even  with my EPIC ranger (cause he is too weak compared to other classes...  yeah another can of worms there I know).  Show me a game of this kind  where people don't lure to some extent. Any i've experienced luring  happens.
It does, and sometimes it makes sense.  It can and does get abused though. It's something that defies a hard-and-fast definition.  It's just as bad when people run around in a circle to get all the creatures to chase them and get within a small area and then use an area-of-effect spell to kill as many as possible in one quick action....then lather, rinse and repeat.

Quote
Now the whole other question about invisibility, g-sanc, HIPS (Hide In  Plain Sight) etc only when its appropriate and not to pass by  spawns..... really? Lets see... im out by myself and I see a pack of  whatever that I clearly cant handle yet they are in the way of what I  want or where I want to go... anyone can justify using methods to get  past unseen.
Traveling through the wilderness...yep, perfectly reasonable for the most part.  Using one of these things to get past 99% of the spawns on the way to some high-level CNR or the boss creature of a dungeon? Not so much.  The higher-level CNR areas were intended to be reached in small groups or at the very least, by a very high level single character.  If one cannot reach these solo, it is not a reasonable excuse for using one of these methods.  That means things are working as intended.

Quote
These kinds of things are huge grey areas in my oppinion. I guess best  answer I can give.... if what you doing feels like its wrong or cheating  the system... It probably is.
Once again...exactly!

Quote
Some game worlds ive seen have systems in place to help with luring....
Example- cave full of kobolds. If you shoot one inside the cave room...  all of them come running. NWN kinda does this too I beleive.
It does...sometimes. Depending.  Sadly, Bioware's AI is not terribly smart and sometimes it's quirky.

Quote
Look at it from the monster side. Even the dumbest ogre is gonna see his  comrade pick up his axe and run off screaming and go see what is going  on..... unlike how the GAME AI works where they just keep roaming like  idiots untill its their turn.
This is precisely why luring is discouraged, yep.


Quote
So yeah..... beats me what the answer is. Hard and fast rules or a little understanding within reason.
Right, which is basically repeating what I said earlier.  Judgement and common sense go a long way.
 

 

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