De-nerf Dev Crit thread

[Dorganath]

Not to cut in, but is changing the feat even on the table, Dorganath?

Because if it is or theoretically could be, perhaps we could aim this thread towards that area - what could we change it to, so that it could still keep it's relative exotic and epic nature, but still be realistic to get and not too overpowering.

As I briefly gave a few ideas before, how about those for a starting point of that sort of discussion:

- Make Dev. Crit add exotic crit damage to critical hits and lower it to STR 25.
- Make Dev. Crit have some sort of other incapacitating effect that has an immunity, but is still of great help to melee, such as paralysis or stun.

I haven't yet said, "No, we're not changing it."

I try to take as few suggestions "off the table" as I can. One never knows where a good idea might originate!

As for this one in particular, keep discussing it. I'm looking for a workable, sensible solution that satisfies the accessibility issues as well as the overall balance issues.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

One thing though, if you were to change the existing Dev Crit, would you leave the current feat available?  renamed?  An alternative is great, but would the original remain?

[Hellblazer]

If I remember right skins are not calculated into the feats requirement no?

So if that is true here is my suggestion.

Lower the Strength requirement to 25, keep all the required feats as it is, and replace the auto death due to failed roll  with a flesh to stone effect.

The 25 strength will still require some sacrifice, but will ensure that it is accessible by a larger group than it is now. And you will not risk to much unbalancing the spawns as you don't risk an auto kill.

A successful hit will then stone the enemy but not kill it, meaning that they still will have to hack it up, but now they will be able to prioritize their enemies, hence rp opportunities and tactics.

Putting it down at str 25, means that at maximum, if someone puts all their points into strength without a feat, they will be able to get it at level 28. If they take some greater strength feats, they can reach it at level 26. But since it's no longer an auto kill with success, it's somewhat less powerful than what it was before.

[Acacea]

The whole idea is changing the original, not adding another one and leaving the original as it is So the requirements of the original would be brought down, along with its punch, to be both more accessible and not freak out the people looking at it. So there is no "two feats" or "original feat," just changing the parameters and requirements of the one feat Devastating Critical.

[willhoff]

I personally would like to keep the status quo as changing the feat would affect players who have picked or forgone feats/abilities in the past in anticipation of attaining or not attaning devastating critical as it is currently written.

That being said, if it does get changed I would propose the following:

At a strength of 25 devastating critical can be picked.  The damage would be to stun the opponent for 1d4 rounds if they fail a save based on the forumla currently used by devastating critical.  Also, additional damage of 5 magical/sonic to the opponent.

At a strength of 30 the feat reverts to its current form as it is currently written in lore.

p.s. I forsee alot of people wanting to change their feats and abilites around if this is approved.

[lonnarin]

Now if only Assassins got the Death Attack in the PnP manual rather than the "Death Attack" stun that NWN does. The real crime here isn't that it takes fighters so long to get an instant kill attack, but that rogues and assassins don't get one at all.  Maybe a Finnessable Critical Feat on par with the Devastating Critical Feat, but Dex based rather than Strength?  

Bards get deathsongs ala Skald Levels, Fighter Classes get Death Attacks with uber godlike strength, wizards and clerics get death attack spells from mid-level on upwards... but no death attacks for the guy who trains in stabbing your spine or heart for quicker kills.  Something wrong with this picture?

*pats the poor little neglected rogues on the head and tosses some coins in their beggars' cups*

[Hellblazer]

hehe, quicker kill is not stabbing the spine or heart, think more .. well can't really write in on the pg forum, but there are much more effective ways than aiming for the heart. Cause really 70% of the heart is behind the sternum. Only a small portion of it protrude to the left under the 4-6 ribs junctions.

[SteveJW]

Back in my PnP days...there was a weapon called 'Vorpal blade'. Similar to the Dev Crit...but with one glaring exception...it was a +3 weapon. You needed the range of 17-20 regular hit chance and again with the same range for an instakill...less if you were able to buff.

My brother who was the DM decided that was a little overpowering...so his rule was natural 20s (no weapon bonuses...magical buffs or strength modifiers) were the only instakill...any other roll was just extra critical damage.

Could Dev Crit be worked to function in that way? IMO...it would keep the basic spirit of the feat...but weaken it enough so it can be taken earlier and wouldn't throw Layo off balance. Keep in mind...you would still have to roll the crit hit range and then roll the natural 20 and hope the creature isn't crit immune...

[Hellblazer]

That is a good idea, but then again, I would add to this. The 20 should only be to fire up the fort save. That way even if you have the 20, then there is still a possibility that it fails.

example:

First roll = getting critical.
second roll= if critical is reach roll d20
Third= if 20 is rolled, roll fort save.

[jrizz]

The development and balancing team was not out to "punish" anyone, power-builders or not. To suggest that is insulting to the equal, if not greater, amount of thought, given by more than just one person, into the balancing of the world as a whole, not just one feat, class or type of class.
 

 
 I did not mean to say that the team took steps to punish anyone. I am sorry for it coming out that way. What I meant was that in order to keep power builders for getting out of hand choices were made like the Dec Crit one and thus those players that are not power builders lost something.
 
 

First, Wren was created (in 2006) after Dev. Crit. was changed to its current requirements (in 2005).

 
 What you have to really look at is when was the Epic gate lifted. As I said before for those of us that did not think we were going to do the things needed to be approved for and pass a ECDQ we made choices about our builds. So it is more about the changes to leveling then when the feat itself was changed.

[jrizz]

Dusting off this thread

I played on another server with a player whose PC had dev crit. I can now officially say without a shadow of a doubt that in its NWN regular form it is in no way what so ever anywhere near over powered. And for sure it can in no way deal the kind of mass death that even a mid 20's level layo mage can, not even close!

Now that I have seen it in action I am completely at a loss as to why on Layo it was changed at all. Dont get me wrong it is a very cool feat but a fighter with dev crit still wont hold a candle to a Layo caster.

Rant over

[Ravemore]

I'm curious if any trials were done with a fighter using this feat against various mobs in a GM test area and the results charted and graphed before it was decided on removal? Just my own curiosity...

[jrizz]

I'm curious if any trials were done with a fighter using this feat against various mobs in a GM test area and the results charted and graphed before it was decided on removal? Just my own curiosity...

It was not removed the str req was pumped to a high number (From base 25 to 30. Skin str does not count) that puts it out of reach unless you build specifically to support that feat. But the method of change is not the subject. The subject is why? it really is not over powered.

[Ravemore]

Ok.. Removal or out of reach... same thing in my mind. Method was not really the subject I was getting at. Anyway, I think the point I was trying to make was whether there was testing done and documented... which in essence would answer your question (Why?) Which means someone would be able to say Jrizz we tested this and it is overpowered because the data from our tests shows "x". If the tests were not done and there is no concrete data showing that the feat is overpowered, then I think your complaint should be entertained...

[stolen]

I play a F/wm/R on another server with dev crit (DC of 38 when str is maxed and a crit range of 13-20) and when I'm fighting level appropriate opponents I still don't kill nearly as many creatures in 10 rounds as the casters I've seen on layo do in one with weird/wail/etc. All it does is let fighters do what spell casters can already do. They can solo places where they might not have been able to before with a ~decent~ chance because even with dev crit, when I'm in places that give me even half decent XP (and I'm talking anything better than 30 xp per kill) I still die if i'm not ~very~ careful.

[jrizz]

I played with stolen's PC that has dev crit. For each spawn of about five bad guys he got about one dev crit kill per spawn over about an hour of play time.

[lonnarin]

How about if it added a critical multiplier?  Overwhelming critical adds a few hitdice to the damage on a crit, a devastating crit could go along the same lines and turn a x2 into x3, a x3 into x4... etc.

Or perhaps a d6 extra dmg for every 3 or 4 total character levels?  At 30th that would be about an extra 10d6 dmg, just on par with the bonus damage that a rogue can do on sneak attack at lvl 20.

My problem with Kurn over Dev Crit is that I'll probably already damage things to death before the devastating critical death will kick in.  At lvl 20 with 30 str (after gear) and two weapon fighting I hit 6x per round, 7 on a haste.  I crit 13-20 x3 thanks to weaponmaster feats and my crits tend to range between 65-100.  So by the time that little death-smite pops up, the monster's already dead from damage, or it is so uber that it would NEVER fail its fort save against it.  More damage on the crit seems more useful to me honestly, than instadeath at a low DC.  Damage stacks, damage and insta death do not.

I like the con drain idea Shiff posted, as a critical strike could feasibly mangle your organs to the point of a target losing health and vitality.  It could be a nasty combo with Crippling Strike, and certainly not unbalanced in comparison.  One drains on sneak attacks, the other could drain on crits.  The method in which the fighter or rogue inflicted either would makes sense in combat stat terms.  The rogue is sneaky, devious and quick enough to nip tendons and muscles to limit the target's strength.  Whereas a powerhouse fighter would be crushing past the armor, through the vitals and damaging them, resulting in internal trauma to lungs, kidneys, livers, stomachs, intestines, etc. which are vital to health & survival.  As it stands now, a devastating critical as an insta-death option may as well just be called quasi-vorpal.

Of course I miss when ALL critical hits were as complex as the old AD&D 2nd Edition Combat & Tactics expansion way back in the 80s.  Roll percentile to choose the body part assaulted, roll a second percentile to see how badly.  Blindness from hitting the eye, instant death from neck severing, severe head trauma from bludgeoning, heart stabbed through by dirk, die.  I remember our group facepalming when the elf tried arching into combat and shattered the cleric's shield arm with a critical miss that became the critical hit on the party member. *evil grin*  Ah poor Turin.  The only one there with healing abilities and he couldn't cast somatic spells.

[Hellblazer]

Of course I miss when ALL critical hits were as complex as the old AD&D 2nd Edition Combat & Tactics expansion way back in the 80s.  Roll percentile to choose the body part assaulted, roll a second percentile to see how badly.  Blindness from hitting the eye, instant death from neck severing, severe head trauma from bludgeoning, heart stabbed through by dirk, die.  I remember our group facepalming when the elf tried arching into combat and shattered the cleric's shield arm with a critical miss that became the critical hit on the party member. *evil grin*  Ah poor Turin.  The only one there with healing abilities and he couldn't cast somatic spells.

We kept that even if we plaid with the 3.0 and then 3.5 edition. It just made sense.