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Author Topic: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows  (Read 1345 times)

Filatus

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2008, 04:38:28 pm »
Quote from: Weeblie
Easy proof is the rogue crippling strike feat. -2 str on each hit (sneak?) and... uhhh.... the effect of it is still only minimal when you also consider the amount of creatures with any sort of NEP/Foe/general ability drain immunity.


I disagree there, having a rogue in the group with crippling strike has saved my PC's life before when fronting a scary boss creature. I suddenly noticed it wasn't doing damage anymore, while it was slowly winning at first. Its strength had completely dropped to 3.
 

Weeblie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2008, 05:04:44 pm »
It doesn't mean that it's useless in all the cases, or surely no one would pick it. But rather, at the levels where people tend to get crippling strike (epic-ish... as there are no pure rogue and people reaching level 10+ levels in rogue tend to pick other feats first), it's not making very huge differences on trips. It's like having darkfire on one's weapon. It speeds things up and not something one says no to, but it's not something anyone (as far as I know) truly base a tactic on.

As for constitution... What about it? A -2 decrease in constitution on level 30 monsters would mean a -30 in HP per successful poisoning attempt. Sneak damage alone is bypassing that (monsters immune to sneak tend to be immune to ability drains too), and this isn't even counting the fact that the really big and nasty monsters tend to have completely insane fortitude save (they won't fail the poison DC). And even if they did, heh... their HP is super high because their base HP tend to be super high. I.e.. base 5000 HP instead of 10,000 constitution. :p

Knockdown is by far, far more abuseable (and abused) than what poison with their current DCs could possibly be. Even making the current poisons to last 24 hours, they would be a mere "nice RP flavour".

ps. Talking about unfair... it's not very rare at all with NPCs on quests using poison. And then, it tend not to be the normal types of poison, mind you... as I'm sure more than a few have noticed. :)
 

darkstorme

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2008, 05:09:47 pm »
Quote from: Weeblie
...tend to get crippling strike (epic-ish... as there are no pure rogue...


Ahem!
 

Weeblie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2008, 05:11:23 pm »
Rephrasing... high/epic level pure rogue. :)
 

jan

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2008, 05:24:04 pm »
So seven attacks ( which rogues can work up-to ) out of nowhere ( which shadow-dancers are ALL working up-to ) will in your eyes not make a HUGE difference ????

I would suggest to get your highest character remade in a single module and try it out against a monster that is capable to the previous described .

My guess is you will find out that no matter what poison they use , it IS a big difference .

You keep telling what the " really big and nasty monsters " can have , maybe you should try to think further and take into account that there aren't many monsters as you describe .

With exception off those " epic " monsters and maybe some " epic " characters , the impact off poisons weakening creatures/ player-characters is HUGE.( especially if they stack , like from the description from Filatus , " crippling strike " does )
 

Pseudonym

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2008, 05:47:44 pm »
Quote from: Weeblie
Rephrasing... high/epic level pure rogue. :)


Ahem!
 

Weeblie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2008, 06:16:01 pm »
Quote from: jan
So seven attacks ( which rogues can work up-to ) out of nowhere ( which shadow-dancers are ALL working up-to ) will in your eyes not make a HUGE difference ????

I would suggest to get your highest character remade in a single module and try it out against a monster that is capable to the previous described .

My guess is you will find out that no matter what poison they use , it IS a big difference .

You keep telling what the " really big and nasty monsters " can have , maybe you should try to think further and take into account that there aren't many monsters as you describe .

With exception off those " epic " monsters and maybe some " epic " characters , the impact off poisons weakening creatures/ player-characters is HUGE.( especially if they stack , like from the description from Filatus , " crippling strike " does )


One of my characters passing through HotU was an rogue/assassin, and the conclusion there (with the very short duration) was also that it's really a bigger hazzle than what it's worth.

There are two main categories of monsters immune to ability drains: Undead + Golemns

And they happen to be in a considerable amount of the highly visited locations...

Besides, you are still basing it all on that the poison will actually pass through the saves. Have you checked what the DC really is for even the highest level poisons?

The more attacks, the more damage the character will do (especially since the classes using poison will most likely have access to a high amount of sneak damage), and the less reason there will be to use any sort of poison. The monsters would drop dead really quickly anyway.

ps. To reflect your words. I would suggest that you would be the one testing a character using poison for any prolonged amount of time. Using it once or twice for a target it actually has any effect on makes one go all "ooohhh"... but then do so for any prolonged amount of time and you would start to cring of that thought. It's the same case with making arrows. Super neat with a considerable amount of damage.... but a really, really insane hazzle...
 

Pseudonym

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 06:54:16 pm »
Quote from: Mak
The system is there, and should be used, just it is unusable the way things are currently. Not asking for epic dcs, or epic effects, I am just asking for a poison that....is capable of actually being used, rather than watching the pretty green glow for a few short moments.


Agreed and reading the above posts, I think all who actually use this system are also in complete agreement.

Well, I take some comfort in that I know these threads are looked at by those working on NWN Layo and the MMO Layo and additionally I have made repeated annoying requests about this issue to both orth and OneST8 on irc every time one of them is unfortunate enough to reveal they are present at their computer.
 

jan

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2008, 07:11:37 pm »
@ Weebly

Again you come with monsters that are found in "  in a considerable amount of the highly visited locations "

I ask you to think about the monsters found in other locations .

It is true that at the places you so willingly keep bringing up , it probably wouldn't have as big an impact .

But on other " normal " areas and monsters it will .

Funny thing is , that i would love to see this implemented on the grounds you bring forth .

Why ? ...because many things that are brought up in defence for implementing this , can easily be brought up to help implement other things  .

To reflect your words : i made many chars and ran with them through single modules to see the effects things have and at mid and lower lvl's many things are more powerful then people think , if used right .
 

darkstorme

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2008, 07:32:49 pm »
Quote from: jan
What about the constitution example then ?
Suggesting that poisons that affect constitution are thrown out ?


Why?  As Weeblie said, even a CON poison that beats the DC of the affected deals, maybe, 30 damage.  A rogue can do better than that with a Sneak Attack.  It's just an improvement.  It would also mean that a rogue could, by using a CON poison, go toe-to-toe with an enemy that would normally be the domain of a fighter.  I don't see the problem with that.

Quote

I for one would expect , that if duration of poisons are extended , that NPC's must also be able to use poisons.


NPCs do use poisons.  Often.   The difference is that because the AI involved in applying poisons would be a) a lot of work, and b) probably lag-inducing, their weapons are permanently poisoned, to duplicate the effect.  That being said, if you want more NPCs to use poison, I am entirely in favour of that.  I'd love to see antidotes and potions of restoration become even more useful than they already are.

Quote

This should include EVERY NPC with even a touch of a class that CAN use poisons.


In other words, every NPC in the game.  Remember, it's not CLASS that determines poison use, but alignment/morality.  Any class/race/alignment combo, mechanically, can use poison.  Period.  Fighters can use it.  Mages can use it.  Druids can use it.  And, yes, Rogues and Assassins can use it.  I'd, frankly, love to see an evil Monk hurling poisoned shuriken.

Barion, even, could use poison, provided he had a reason and a target for which it would not be an alignment violation for him to do so.  (So, unlikely, but still.)  I'm sure, were he dual-wielding, that he could easily outclass any Rogue alive in terms of how likely each of his poisoned blade's attacks made it through his opponent's AC.  (Additionally, you indicate that a Rogue can make seven attacks - Barion, as an example, could make eight just as easily.)  This would benefit everyone, not just the subclass you make it out to be.  The key is RP - not who CAN use poison, but who WOULD use poison.

Quote

Question then is : is it desirable to have that ?
Is any one waiting on a way to have their character killed by NOT being able to react due to poison ?
Or because the combined penalties from constitution affecting poison and arrows provide to be an easy way for your character to die with out having the opportunity to even fight back ?


I believe, as I stated above, my answer would be an unequivocal "YES!". :)  Greenstone rings?  Suddenly, greatly in demand!  Potions of Ironguts?  Gimme!  And the aforementioned potions of antidote, restoration, and similar spells/scrolls/potions?  All suddenly extraordinarily useful - particularly with CON poisons.  In a fight, you can't use bandages (the miracle cure-all) but you know if you fail that second saving throw, your character is going to die.  But if you pop a potion of antidote - Bob's your uncle, you're back in the fight!  Place these consumables in merchants, and you'd suddenly have an additional gold sink in the economy as well!  Jan, you may well be a genius - making more NPCs use poison could do wonders for Layonara! *grins evilly*

Speaking to the original topic of the post again, I remain in favour of increasing the duration of "poisoning" weapons, in order to increase the utility (and flexibility) of these concoctions for both RP and mechanical purposes.  Hamlet wouldn't have been nearly so interesting in its conclusion if the poison wore off Laertes' blade a minute into the fight - and the mechanics were designed for a game that you could pause, anyway.
 

Weeblie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2008, 07:39:37 pm »
What are the normal areas then?

You pretty much have to be at around level 15, or rather in level 15-ish areas, for the poison to really have any effect (with the tiny DCs available now). And at that time... I seriously doubt anyone who would even consider using the poison (from a reasonable IC point of view - i.e. assassin or rogue-like types) can come close to 7 attacks/round.

Boosting it to 5 turns from the current 3 rounds (?) would do zip in practice. The whole just-like-the-crafted-arrows-issue remains.

The default NWN poison duration is a joke. It's on par with putting True Strike as a spell on an item. You spend a good 6 seconds on the cooldown after using the time... and then have one or two weak hits before being forced to recast (or in this case, reapply the poison).
 

Chongo

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2008, 08:36:10 pm »
Find a scripter to do it.  Scriptwrecked maybe?  Until then you're all debating over nothing.
 
 I'll gladly handle the balancing.
 
 Poisons are too weak, too short, and far underbalanced due to DC restriction and effects that are not up to par with the tempo of Layonara balance between class abilities, spells, and general affect.  There's no real argument against this.  Poisons are useful at current stats for low levels.  It's the same old argument though.  One day fireball is too strong, the next day you're epic and the monster has 1000 hitpoints and it's too weak.  NWN never scaled up with HoTU.  They just didn't.  All you got was epic feats, greater damage possibilities on weapons, and higher enchantment.  Spells were left in the dust, and things like poison... fat chance they'd be scaled.
 
 Poison effects could use a lot of work, but there's legitimate concern as Jan is expressing.  Sure, for a level 30 character, a poison which petrifies at DC 30 vs. fort is 100% fair game, even if it lasts an entire rest period.  It just is.  But for a level 18 to be able to do the same merely because of crafting level... bad news.  There needs to be a fairly non-exploitable block for appropriate level breaks amongst the poison scale.
 
 To be honest the concept of fixing this gets into the weeds pretty quickly.  Once you get into the scaling of old NWN systems, you hit all sorts of 'needs' that deserve the same attention.  Direct damage spells come to mind.  So you need to compromise.  I personally would be in support of a poison revamp on the following scales: 1) duration at all levels.  2) Epic w/ 15+ levels of rogue having an epic list of poisons available, which I'd want to limit to 5 max due to time investment.  They'd use DC calcs based off intelligence and 1/2 rogue level or something to that effect, and they'd have 'real' effects for the higher level tempo.  Again, it is irrefutable that poisons become useless past the teens.  The available effects just aren't there.  And hey, I know.  I put them on ALL the creatures where it's in theme.  Hell, I give them the max possible DC, stacked poison and disease effects... and what does it yield on you folks?  A purple squiggly and a successful blue combat check that you obviously haven't even been noticing.
 
 If script or weeblie isn't working something else and is willing to work with me on a system, I'll provide the balance side.  But it takes one of them, along with the approval of the general management team to determine that it won't steal time from more important projects where they could be used.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2008, 02:24:01 am »
Quote from: darkstorme
(Additionally, you indicate that a Rogue can make seven attacks - Barion, as an example, could make eight just as easily.)

Hum I'm sorry but unless it's a dual class rogue/monk I don't think it's possbile for a rogue to have more than 5 attacks per round and that is by using improved two weapon fighting. unhasted that is.

Quote from: Chongo
argument against this.  Poisons are useful at current stats for low levels.

I can't say I agree to this, as to 1 the dc needed to beat to apply it is dext related if I remember correctly. So you need a good dext to apply it, which most chars, at low level usually don't have.

---------

on different other points

Brian is one Rogue/shadow dancer (level 18 ) with crippling strike and with how he is built, there is absolutely no difference with using poison than not.

You need to succeed in applying the poison, second you have to do it away from the target (using poison will cancel stealth) so you can't do it close to the target. So in that aspect, the rogue/assassin loses all the benefits of sneaking up to his target use the poison and attack. And then you have to beat the dc of the thing you are fighting. Let me tell you that -most- of the things I have fought on dregar, are poison resistant to a point it's a waste of time. Using it on mistone on the low cr is also a waste of time, just to create the poison. Which I have stopped doing myself very soon when I noticed how inefficient the poison were.

Crippling strikes only stack up to -8 str if I remember correctly. So there is a cap to what can happen. I would imagine that there would also (or should) be a cap on how much a poison can act. It's not realist but at least it would be a compromise.

And as many stated, the use of the poison is not class restricted. If any one withing the right alignment has a good rp reason to, then hey they should use it.

jan

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2008, 02:51:28 am »
The scales you are proposing indeed sound better then the idea that it would be crafting lvl dependable.
I guess that with number 1 you mean that duration is depending on the lvl off those that use it and number 2 would make it worth to take more lvl's in rogue then most are doing now , boosting the rogue to a new lvl and making them more then a "useful " sub-class .

The main concerns i have/had are indeed the fact that most seem to think that it should be craft-lvl dependent and that by using that standard people would be able to face things , that they wouldn't survive even looking at from a distance , because off the weakening effects off poison .

I'm all in favor to make classes more useful/unique , but not at the cost off making the same classes too powerful on lower lvl's .

PS @ Darkstorme

Asfar as i know the most attacks non-rogues can get is six ....and that is dual-wielding at higher lvl's ......if you know another way , feel free to PM it to me ;)
 

Hellblazer

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2008, 03:18:37 am »
I think your misunderstanding the concept B.

The use of poison is -not- class specific. A fighter can use it if he has the right alignment.

The use of poison is -not- crafting level dependent, because you can buy it from any one who can make it. Which should make it an other type of mercantile branch for the shadies. (black market)

So that doesn't mean that it gives it a more uniqueness to a class, but to an alignment. The use of Poison is far more a RP choice than a mechanical due to the restriction IG that applies to it.

Chongo

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2008, 03:21:31 am »
Quote from: Hellblazer
Hum I'm sorry but unless it's a dual class rogue/monk I don't think it's possbile for a rogue to have more than 5 attacks per round and that is by using improved two weapon fighting. unhasted that is.
 
 I'm assuming they said this in reference to multi-classed rogues.  4 ftr/16 rogue equals 4 main hand and 2 offhand.  4 fighter/4monk/12 rogue would be 6 main and 2 offhand with kamas.  Mind you, that's not an invite to argue the virtue, or lack thereof, of multiclassed rogues.
 
 
Quote from: Hellblazer
I can't say I agree to this, as to 1 the dc needed to beat to apply it is dext related if I remember correctly. So you need a good dext to apply it, which most chars, at low level usually don't have.
 
 I was referring to poison effects with regard to effective DC's and their result, but fair enough point.
 
 
Quote from: Hellblazer
Crippling strikes only stack up to -8 str if I remember correctly.
 
 This is incorrect.  I've taken a 72 strength enemy down to 4.  So unless my GM co-tester was lying, it goes as far as you can continue to hit things.  
 
 And whoever it was that said crippling strike is barely useful in the epics (points at Weebs)... well, all I can say is that you'd respect it a lot more if you were the one tanking and finding that you stop getting hit after a while as you wear down the ultra epic boss.  *Obligatory poke to follow towards some folks that I insert every chance I get* Granted, when you have already tanks in group which are so far above the norm on AC or DR that creatures are not balanced for them in an effort not to punish everyone else on the server who isn't as optimized... then I'd say it's even less likely to notice it's use since the creature probably won't even be hitting with that 60 strength to begin with.  I personally base tactics around a good rogue on flank with crippling strike whenever it behooves the party tempo.  Now, that party tempo shifts quickly when you have overwhelming superiority in spells insofar as to insta-kill or disable, or if in general combat your damage per round is overwhelmingly higher then their cumulative HP... then yeah, won't notice it.  But the more I build, the further and further away we get from level 30 creatures with 120 HP *coughs*.  I've been a fan of 1000+ lately.  So admire your rogues and give them a pat on the back.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2008, 04:07:54 am »
Thanks for the info. And yeah I do love to play with my Rogue/Sd

Weeblie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2008, 04:27:42 am »
For crippling strike to make a difference, you must meet a creature that...

1. Has high enough HP to survive for some time.
2. High enough strength so the damage output from the creature comes from strength, and not from sneak attacks.
3. Not immune to ability drains.
4. Not otherwise quickly disposed off (think instant death and/or banishment-like spells). This point is of course directly related to number 1 too.

Those dragon-like + hydra-like creatures fit very good into this particular description (not so sure about their lack of immunity though). TP giants could potentially have fallen into this category, or does so if you have a "party" of one rogue and one fighter-type character. But with just a slightly more reasonable 4+ people party, they would fall quickly enough anyway.

Otherwise, one's back to boss monsters and that's where a huge issue appears. A large amount of the boss monsters are primary casters, not melees, so any form of str decreament has way lower priority than to disable the effects of their spells. Others tend to be undead or undead-like creatures (they are definitely over represented among the boss monsters). You need to go down in levels to mid/mid-high range to find your everyday roaming giant to find a consistent use of this feat. Actually, I can only think of one big boss that crippling strike is useful against, and that would be the arc giant king.

Crippling strike has a built-in catch 22. You need to sneak for it to work. But if you can sneak, then you are most likely ditching out tons of damage anyway, and the monster would go down quickly and the effect would have no time to stack. A non-powerbuild rogue (i.e. not 1342 attacks/round at 2883 AB) would probably need about a minute to ditch in enough attacks (10?).

Being a healer-cleric and prone to the oh-so-feared AoO, you notice that either the monsters do not really harm you at all, or you get seriously beaten up so it's not even funny (60-ish damage/hit... with a good three or four hits in a single round). The middle-ground creatures who slowly damages you... well, isn't that very easy to handle anyway?

With more super high HP creatures, yes, crippling strike will become more and more useful. But right now, there are really only one single group of high level area where you can find those, and that would be the half-dragon one.

And back to the poison topic. Scaling up the duration of poison is, as you probably have noticed too, not any earth rattling change with their present DCs. As you said, changing mechanics upwards or downwards (read: "balancing") is a great headache and inheritely flawed with the current system we have. Changing the duration would instead be to making "something of little use and ultra short on-par-with-true-strike duration" to "something of little use and a normal duration".

More or less only a pure RP win... :)
 

Pseudonym

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2008, 05:49:57 am »
@Chongo and Weebs - take your nerdy game mechanics debate elsewhere! Dorg might see this thread and note it has grown to 39 posts long and assume there was some contention surrounding Makashi's original assertion that might influence his decision!

:)
 

lonnarin

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2008, 05:59:08 am »
There needs to be some way for poisons to be able to be used on wells...

*cackles maniacally*

And pies!
 

 

anything