The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Makashi on May 19, 2008, 08:07:30 pm
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Sadly the duration is far too short to benefit from this what so ever currently, *shrugs* Think that about sums it up.
Oh, I will add, the one time I tried using it on a target, I wasn't quite close enough, by the time I had creeped up to my target, it was already gone.
Seems ashame theres such a potentially decent craft going down the drain for the people that put the effort into it. For the same reason no one really wants to buy them, because they are simply, useless! :)
So what I'm suggesting is the duration increased, one minute would be perfect, thats not too long, but long enough to actually do something with, rather than putting the enchantment on only to see it fade before combat!
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Bravo!
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I'm all in favour of this - since it's changing properties, rather than creating a new one, it should just be a change in one column of the des_crft_poison.2da... that is, unless Layo uses a different poison system, in which case we're up a creek without a paddle.
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woo hoo!
I would also think it nice if the craft could be opened up a bit. Say...to rangers & druids and not just neutral or evil characters.
The reason being would be that rangers know the forest and its animals, plants what they can be used for etc. They would already know what plants and animals could be deadly due their venom. It is arguable that they would be able to use it for hunting prey or whatever.
Think rainforest hunters who use it on arrows and blowgun darts. They arent inherently evil people, they are just using resources available to them.
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woo hoo!
I would also think it nice if the craft could be opened up a bit. Say...to rangers & druids and not just neutral or evil characters.
The reason being would be that rangers know the forest and its animals, plants what they can be used for etc. They would already know what plants and animals could be deadly due their venom. It is arguable that they would be able to use it for hunting prey or whatever.
Think rainforest hunters who use it on arrows and blowgun darts. They arent inherently evil people, they are just using resources available to them.
Yes and no, really.
Making poisons implies a certain moral flexibility, because what we're talking about here isn't the mild compounds used by rainforest hunters, the toxins primitively refined (or harvested straight from the source). These are concentrated toxins, meant to inflict serious harm upon their target.
Let's look at the various sorts of damage that can be done by toxins, and what (in all likelihood) the physical manifestations of these toxins would be:
- Strength Damage - these are almost certainly paralytic toxins that work on muscular and neuromuscular levels. The most common spider and bivalve-related toxins that cause this effect usually cause latrodectism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrodectism) in victims who don't receive a fatal dose. This is very painful, and if death doesn't result, usually results in hours or days of agony and disobedient muscles before the toxin works its way out of the target's system.
- Constitution Damage - This is your classic murderer's poison. Again, since it's extracted from venomous creatures, it's unlikely to be anything that sends victims gently into that good night, but something that resembles, symptomatically, arsenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_poisoning) or cyanide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning), neither of which are particularly pleasant ways to die (not that there IS a pleasant way, but still). Again, agony and suffering until death... or until they recover.
- Charisma Damage - It's unlikely that a mundane poison that can be processed from creatures (rather than some magical poison) could cause someone's personality to change, so this is likely a change in physical appearance. And what would cause one's charisma to drop? Lesions, boils, sores, inflammation, swelling, discolouration of the skin... once again, not exactly a pleasant thing to inflict on anyone, and likely painful as well (particularly the first four symptoms).
- Dexterity Damage - This, and the two types to follow it, are likely the less unpleasant toxins. Something that causes DEX damage could, conceivably, be a watered-down version of a neurotoxin that causes latrodectism, binding muscles and making it more difficult to move gracefully. Or, it could be a powerful depressant, which dulls response time while falling short of knocking the target unconscious. This latter case would be far less torturous to its victim.
- Wisdom and Intelligence Damage - For these, I'd guess that the compounds involved would be either hallucinogenics or barbituates, designed to confuse the senses or depress higher cortical functioning. Most of these compounds are largely painless, though in the unmeasured doses a poisoned weapon (or dart, or whatnot) would deliver, the chances of a "bad trip" are substantial, as are residual effects.
On the whole, the poisons most effective in combat (STR, CON, DEX) are the ones most likely to be akin to torture (which, as established in Layo, is not something that moral individuals would do lightly, or at all), where the victim will feel as though their body is on fire, or worse. Even if a character forswears using those poisons themselves, the moral ambiguity surrounding making them in the first place is substantial, if they're permitted to continue existing.
Now, I've made a case going the other direction as well - but there's a good reason why Good people don't normally make poisons.
Regardless, the topic of the thread is duration of poisons - a change of which, as I said, I am entirely in favour.
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This has literally been under discussion for years.
I'm still for increasing the durations, and always, always will.
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Ditto
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When I saw this post from a DM I opened thinking YES!!! =P We have asked for this for years, but there has been too much on the plate.
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Yes absolutely...one of the main reasons I have gone away from my assassin Leisa is precisely because of the useless usage of poison considering I am an assassin! Its the one thing that makes the class exclusive to everyone else...the ability to use poisons without fail..and its useless!
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For both rogues and assassin in general, the use of poison would usually be a tool they use often. Their ability to sneak and get close to a target should give them a proper use, but with the short duration of all the poison it's impossible to do.
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since it's changing properties, rather than creating a new one, it should just be a change in one column of the des_crft_poison.2da... that is, unless Layo uses a different poison system, in which case we're up a creek without a paddle.
Would some one be able to confirm what system is in place, and if this would be easily done?
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We're still, as far as I see, still using Bioware's default system.
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What would be the effect of the poisons used ?
I know that other feats are made harder ( impossible ) to get and to me it seems that an assassin with "death attack " or a rogue with " sneak attack " AND strong poisons would be considered overpowered for a system where other things are made harder ( impossible ) to get due to the world not being able to handle those .
Just a thought .
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Poison is not permanant, and the way things are, all the effort I've put into poison crafting has been pointless, due to the current poisons that are crafted being currently -useless-. And the best poison available, isn't even that good. The durations may aswell be 1 second long. You cannot make use of any of the poisons currently in place.
I'd love to see a show of hands for how many people currently use poison consistantly. I bet the figure would be very close, if not Zero.
Poison should be usable by the classes that can use them. The effects should not change, just the durations increased.
I don't honestly see how this would cause rogues/assassins to be overpowered at all, draining a bit of strength or constitution from an enemy is not going to cause you to become godlike. Most enemies will probably succeed the save in most high level areas anyway.
The system is there, and should be used, just it is unusable the way things are currently. Not asking for epic dcs, or epic effects, I am just asking for a poison that....is capable of actually being used, rather than watching the pretty green glow for a few short moments.
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I agree with Mak.
There is already a feat available for rogues, that is like one of the poison, meaning it saps the strength on a successful sneak attack. Does it makes the rogue overpower?
I'm probably one of those who uses poison on a somewhat regular basis, because I get a good supplies. But depending on where and when and who is there, as stated previously, it's somewhat pointless due to the duration. I get at most, one attack before it poofs off the blade or arrows.
Concidering that fighters have their own power feat, (imp power attack, imp knock down, overwhelming crit) Wm have their Ki attack and others, etc, the use of poison will do very little to unbalance things.
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I'm tops when it comes to making poison, but it's just a hobby. The stuff is totally useless.
Ferrit
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I agree with Mak.
There is already a feat available for rogues, that is like one of the poison, meaning it saps the strength on a successful sneak attack. Does it makes the rogue overpower?
I'm probably one of those who uses poison on a somewhat regular basis, because I get a good supplies. But depending on where and when and who is there, as stated previously, it's somewhat pointless due to the duration. I get at most, one attack before it poofs off the blade or arrows.
Concidering that fighters have their own power feat, (imp power attack, imp knock down, overwhelming crit) Wm have their Ki attack and others, etc, the use of poison will do very little to unbalance things.
That depends on how-long the poison works and what it does , don't it ?
Imagine an adept bow-person shooting arrows with poison that lowers constitution , wouldn't after a few rounds the target be close to death due to poison and the damage done by the arrows itself ?
How about a rogue with sneak attacks and two daggers covered with poison that lowers strength , wouldn't after a few attacks the target be too weak to move ?
All things that need to be taken into account in my eyes .
And then i don't even start on shadow-dancers with HIPS , ever thought about what they could do with poison that lasts a couple of rounds ?
Of-course it all depends on the fact IF the poison effects are cumulative .
To simply dismiss this by saying that at high lvl's the chances of saving are high enough , in my eyes , should then be implemented for other things that are now placed out of reach , for those too have saving throws that can be made at high lvl's.
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For those arguing that increasing the duration of poisons would unbalance the rogue/assassin classes, please also consider that non-rogues/assassins may also craft and/or use poison, and that (I think) any class can mechanically use them. So in theory, a character who could not craft poisons could still use them by purchasing them from a PC who could craft them. (We shall temporarily ignore alignment issues, as this refers only to mechanics. Whether your character would purchase and use poisons is another matter, and one that stems from the individual character and RP.)
For an example of a character who is neither a rogue nor an assassin but is involved in poisons, consider my CN sorceress, who is level 13 in poison crafting. Making poisons was written into her character from the very start, and appears in her original biography. She has used poison (moderated by a GM) to attack an enemy by stealth, poisoning their food supply. She has sold poisons of many kinds, both to PCs and pawn brokers (whom I like to pretend are shady contacts of some sort!). She even kept a carefully stocked box for a while with a sample of all the pertinent types before I cleaned out my inventory.
That said, I don't use poisons much myself due to the short duration. Of course, my character is a sorceress and generally prefers to blow things up rather than get up close and stick them with a knife, but I believe I would use the poisons I craft on arrows when I use a bow if they had a longer duration.
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Poisons don't really change much.
Easy proof is the rogue crippling strike feat. -2 str on each hit (sneak?) and... uhhh.... the effect of it is still only minimal when you also consider the amount of creatures with any sort of NEP/Foe/general ability drain immunity.
Remember also that monsters do not follow the weight system as PCs do. 100000/1 lbs and they are still quite capable of moving and running (as far as I've noticed).
What could potentially be very harming would be super high DC int/wis/cha poison. I dunno if those exist... but using them on a NPC caster could really mess things up, hehe.
In either case, without looking at any code at all, I think it should be fairly simple to change the duration of poisons.
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Poisons don't really change much.
Easy proof is the rogue crippling strike feat. -2 str on each hit (sneak?) and... uhhh.... the effect of it is still only minimal when you also consider the amount of creatures with any sort of NEP/Foe/general ability drain immunity.
Remember also that monsters do not follow the weight system as PCs do. 100000/1 lbs and they are still quite capable of moving and running (as far as I've noticed).
What could potentially be very harming would be super high DC int/wis/cha poison. I dunno if those exist... but using them on a NPC caster could really mess things up, hehe.
In either case, without looking at any code at all, I think it should be fairly simple to change the duration of poisons.
What about the constitution example then ?
Suggesting that poisons that affect constitution are thrown out ?
As far as i understood , the restrictions that are implemented are not solely based on " monster behavior " but also on the impact it COULD have on player characters .
I for one would expect , that if duration of poisons are extended , that NPC's must also be able to use poisons .
This should include EVERY NPC with even a touch of a class that CAN use poisons .
Question then is : is it desirable to have that ?
Is any one waiting on a way to have their character killed by NOT being able to react due to poison ?
Or because the combined penalties from constitution affecting poison and arrows provide to be an easy way for your character to die with out having the opportunity to even fight back ?
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Easy proof is the rogue crippling strike feat. -2 str on each hit (sneak?) and... uhhh.... the effect of it is still only minimal when you also consider the amount of creatures with any sort of NEP/Foe/general ability drain immunity.
I disagree there, having a rogue in the group with crippling strike has saved my PC's life before when fronting a scary boss creature. I suddenly noticed it wasn't doing damage anymore, while it was slowly winning at first. Its strength had completely dropped to 3.
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It doesn't mean that it's useless in all the cases, or surely no one would pick it. But rather, at the levels where people tend to get crippling strike (epic-ish... as there are no pure rogue and people reaching level 10+ levels in rogue tend to pick other feats first), it's not making very huge differences on trips. It's like having darkfire on one's weapon. It speeds things up and not something one says no to, but it's not something anyone (as far as I know) truly base a tactic on.
As for constitution... What about it? A -2 decrease in constitution on level 30 monsters would mean a -30 in HP per successful poisoning attempt. Sneak damage alone is bypassing that (monsters immune to sneak tend to be immune to ability drains too), and this isn't even counting the fact that the really big and nasty monsters tend to have completely insane fortitude save (they won't fail the poison DC). And even if they did, heh... their HP is super high because their base HP tend to be super high. I.e.. base 5000 HP instead of 10,000 constitution. :p
Knockdown is by far, far more abuseable (and abused) than what poison with their current DCs could possibly be. Even making the current poisons to last 24 hours, they would be a mere "nice RP flavour".
ps. Talking about unfair... it's not very rare at all with NPCs on quests using poison. And then, it tend not to be the normal types of poison, mind you... as I'm sure more than a few have noticed. :)
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...tend to get crippling strike (epic-ish... as there are no pure rogue...
Ahem!
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Rephrasing... high/epic level pure rogue. :)
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So seven attacks ( which rogues can work up-to ) out of nowhere ( which shadow-dancers are ALL working up-to ) will in your eyes not make a HUGE difference ????
I would suggest to get your highest character remade in a single module and try it out against a monster that is capable to the previous described .
My guess is you will find out that no matter what poison they use , it IS a big difference .
You keep telling what the " really big and nasty monsters " can have , maybe you should try to think further and take into account that there aren't many monsters as you describe .
With exception off those " epic " monsters and maybe some " epic " characters , the impact off poisons weakening creatures/ player-characters is HUGE.( especially if they stack , like from the description from Filatus , " crippling strike " does )
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Rephrasing... high/epic level pure rogue. :)
Ahem!
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So seven attacks ( which rogues can work up-to ) out of nowhere ( which shadow-dancers are ALL working up-to ) will in your eyes not make a HUGE difference ????
I would suggest to get your highest character remade in a single module and try it out against a monster that is capable to the previous described .
My guess is you will find out that no matter what poison they use , it IS a big difference .
You keep telling what the " really big and nasty monsters " can have , maybe you should try to think further and take into account that there aren't many monsters as you describe .
With exception off those " epic " monsters and maybe some " epic " characters , the impact off poisons weakening creatures/ player-characters is HUGE.( especially if they stack , like from the description from Filatus , " crippling strike " does )
One of my characters passing through HotU was an rogue/assassin, and the conclusion there (with the very short duration) was also that it's really a bigger hazzle than what it's worth.
There are two main categories of monsters immune to ability drains: Undead + Golemns
And they happen to be in a considerable amount of the highly visited locations...
Besides, you are still basing it all on that the poison will actually pass through the saves. Have you checked what the DC really is for even the highest level poisons?
The more attacks, the more damage the character will do (especially since the classes using poison will most likely have access to a high amount of sneak damage), and the less reason there will be to use any sort of poison. The monsters would drop dead really quickly anyway.
ps. To reflect your words. I would suggest that you would be the one testing a character using poison for any prolonged amount of time. Using it once or twice for a target it actually has any effect on makes one go all "ooohhh"... but then do so for any prolonged amount of time and you would start to cring of that thought. It's the same case with making arrows. Super neat with a considerable amount of damage.... but a really, really insane hazzle...
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The system is there, and should be used, just it is unusable the way things are currently. Not asking for epic dcs, or epic effects, I am just asking for a poison that....is capable of actually being used, rather than watching the pretty green glow for a few short moments.
Agreed and reading the above posts, I think all who actually use this system are also in complete agreement.
Well, I take some comfort in that I know these threads are looked at by those working on NWN Layo and the MMO Layo and additionally I have made repeated annoying requests about this issue to both orth and OneST8 on irc every time one of them is unfortunate enough to reveal they are present at their computer.
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@ Weebly
Again you come with monsters that are found in " in a considerable amount of the highly visited locations "
I ask you to think about the monsters found in other locations .
It is true that at the places you so willingly keep bringing up , it probably wouldn't have as big an impact .
But on other " normal " areas and monsters it will .
Funny thing is , that i would love to see this implemented on the grounds you bring forth .
Why ? ...because many things that are brought up in defence for implementing this , can easily be brought up to help implement other things .
To reflect your words : i made many chars and ran with them through single modules to see the effects things have and at mid and lower lvl's many things are more powerful then people think , if used right .
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What about the constitution example then ?
Suggesting that poisons that affect constitution are thrown out ?
Why? As Weeblie said, even a CON poison that beats the DC of the affected deals, maybe, 30 damage. A rogue can do better than that with a Sneak Attack. It's just an improvement. It would also mean that a rogue could, by using a CON poison, go toe-to-toe with an enemy that would normally be the domain of a fighter. I don't see the problem with that.
I for one would expect , that if duration of poisons are extended , that NPC's must also be able to use poisons.
NPCs do use poisons. Often. The difference is that because the AI involved in applying poisons would be a) a lot of work, and b) probably lag-inducing, their weapons are permanently poisoned, to duplicate the effect. That being said, if you want more NPCs to use poison, I am entirely in favour of that. I'd love to see antidotes and potions of restoration become even more useful than they already are.
This should include EVERY NPC with even a touch of a class that CAN use poisons.
In other words, every NPC in the game. Remember, it's not CLASS that determines poison use, but alignment/morality. Any class/race/alignment combo, mechanically, can use poison. Period. Fighters can use it. Mages can use it. Druids can use it. And, yes, Rogues and Assassins can use it. I'd, frankly, love to see an evil Monk hurling poisoned shuriken.
Barion, even, could use poison, provided he had a reason and a target for which it would not be an alignment violation for him to do so. (So, unlikely, but still.) I'm sure, were he dual-wielding, that he could easily outclass any Rogue alive in terms of how likely each of his poisoned blade's attacks made it through his opponent's AC. (Additionally, you indicate that a Rogue can make seven attacks - Barion, as an example, could make eight just as easily.) This would benefit everyone, not just the subclass you make it out to be. The key is RP - not who CAN use poison, but who WOULD use poison.
Question then is : is it desirable to have that ?
Is any one waiting on a way to have their character killed by NOT being able to react due to poison ?
Or because the combined penalties from constitution affecting poison and arrows provide to be an easy way for your character to die with out having the opportunity to even fight back ?
I believe, as I stated above, my answer would be an unequivocal "YES!". :) Greenstone rings? Suddenly, greatly in demand! Potions of Ironguts? Gimme! And the aforementioned potions of antidote, restoration, and similar spells/scrolls/potions? All suddenly extraordinarily useful - particularly with CON poisons. In a fight, you can't use bandages (the miracle cure-all) but you know if you fail that second saving throw, your character is going to die. But if you pop a potion of antidote - Bob's your uncle, you're back in the fight! Place these consumables in merchants, and you'd suddenly have an additional gold sink in the economy as well! Jan, you may well be a genius - making more NPCs use poison could do wonders for Layonara! *grins evilly*
Speaking to the original topic of the post again, I remain in favour of increasing the duration of "poisoning" weapons, in order to increase the utility (and flexibility) of these concoctions for both RP and mechanical purposes. Hamlet wouldn't have been nearly so interesting in its conclusion if the poison wore off Laertes' blade a minute into the fight - and the mechanics were designed for a game that you could pause, anyway.
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What are the normal areas then?
You pretty much have to be at around level 15, or rather in level 15-ish areas, for the poison to really have any effect (with the tiny DCs available now). And at that time... I seriously doubt anyone who would even consider using the poison (from a reasonable IC point of view - i.e. assassin or rogue-like types) can come close to 7 attacks/round.
Boosting it to 5 turns from the current 3 rounds (?) would do zip in practice. The whole just-like-the-crafted-arrows-issue remains.
The default NWN poison duration is a joke. It's on par with putting True Strike as a spell on an item. You spend a good 6 seconds on the cooldown after using the time... and then have one or two weak hits before being forced to recast (or in this case, reapply the poison).
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Find a scripter to do it. Scriptwrecked maybe? Until then you're all debating over nothing.
I'll gladly handle the balancing.
Poisons are too weak, too short, and far underbalanced due to DC restriction and effects that are not up to par with the tempo of Layonara balance between class abilities, spells, and general affect. There's no real argument against this. Poisons are useful at current stats for low levels. It's the same old argument though. One day fireball is too strong, the next day you're epic and the monster has 1000 hitpoints and it's too weak. NWN never scaled up with HoTU. They just didn't. All you got was epic feats, greater damage possibilities on weapons, and higher enchantment. Spells were left in the dust, and things like poison... fat chance they'd be scaled.
Poison effects could use a lot of work, but there's legitimate concern as Jan is expressing. Sure, for a level 30 character, a poison which petrifies at DC 30 vs. fort is 100% fair game, even if it lasts an entire rest period. It just is. But for a level 18 to be able to do the same merely because of crafting level... bad news. There needs to be a fairly non-exploitable block for appropriate level breaks amongst the poison scale.
To be honest the concept of fixing this gets into the weeds pretty quickly. Once you get into the scaling of old NWN systems, you hit all sorts of 'needs' that deserve the same attention. Direct damage spells come to mind. So you need to compromise. I personally would be in support of a poison revamp on the following scales: 1) duration at all levels. 2) Epic w/ 15+ levels of rogue having an epic list of poisons available, which I'd want to limit to 5 max due to time investment. They'd use DC calcs based off intelligence and 1/2 rogue level or something to that effect, and they'd have 'real' effects for the higher level tempo. Again, it is irrefutable that poisons become useless past the teens. The available effects just aren't there. And hey, I know. I put them on ALL the creatures where it's in theme. Hell, I give them the max possible DC, stacked poison and disease effects... and what does it yield on you folks? A purple squiggly and a successful blue combat check that you obviously haven't even been noticing.
If script or weeblie isn't working something else and is willing to work with me on a system, I'll provide the balance side. But it takes one of them, along with the approval of the general management team to determine that it won't steal time from more important projects where they could be used.
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(Additionally, you indicate that a Rogue can make seven attacks - Barion, as an example, could make eight just as easily.)
Hum I'm sorry but unless it's a dual class rogue/monk I don't think it's possbile for a rogue to have more than 5 attacks per round and that is by using improved two weapon fighting. unhasted that is.
argument against this. Poisons are useful at current stats for low levels.
I can't say I agree to this, as to 1 the dc needed to beat to apply it is dext related if I remember correctly. So you need a good dext to apply it, which most chars, at low level usually don't have.
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on different other points
Brian is one Rogue/shadow dancer (level 18 ) with crippling strike and with how he is built, there is absolutely no difference with using poison than not.
You need to succeed in applying the poison, second you have to do it away from the target (using poison will cancel stealth) so you can't do it close to the target. So in that aspect, the rogue/assassin loses all the benefits of sneaking up to his target use the poison and attack. And then you have to beat the dc of the thing you are fighting. Let me tell you that -most- of the things I have fought on dregar, are poison resistant to a point it's a waste of time. Using it on mistone on the low cr is also a waste of time, just to create the poison. Which I have stopped doing myself very soon when I noticed how inefficient the poison were.
Crippling strikes only stack up to -8 str if I remember correctly. So there is a cap to what can happen. I would imagine that there would also (or should) be a cap on how much a poison can act. It's not realist but at least it would be a compromise.
And as many stated, the use of the poison is not class restricted. If any one withing the right alignment has a good rp reason to, then hey they should use it.
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The scales you are proposing indeed sound better then the idea that it would be crafting lvl dependable.
I guess that with number 1 you mean that duration is depending on the lvl off those that use it and number 2 would make it worth to take more lvl's in rogue then most are doing now , boosting the rogue to a new lvl and making them more then a "useful " sub-class .
The main concerns i have/had are indeed the fact that most seem to think that it should be craft-lvl dependent and that by using that standard people would be able to face things , that they wouldn't survive even looking at from a distance , because off the weakening effects off poison .
I'm all in favor to make classes more useful/unique , but not at the cost off making the same classes too powerful on lower lvl's .
PS @ Darkstorme
Asfar as i know the most attacks non-rogues can get is six ....and that is dual-wielding at higher lvl's ......if you know another way , feel free to PM it to me ;)
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I think your misunderstanding the concept B.
The use of poison is -not- class specific. A fighter can use it if he has the right alignment.
The use of poison is -not- crafting level dependent, because you can buy it from any one who can make it. Which should make it an other type of mercantile branch for the shadies. (black market)
So that doesn't mean that it gives it a more uniqueness to a class, but to an alignment. The use of Poison is far more a RP choice than a mechanical due to the restriction IG that applies to it.
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Hum I'm sorry but unless it's a dual class rogue/monk I don't think it's possbile for a rogue to have more than 5 attacks per round and that is by using improved two weapon fighting. unhasted that is.
I'm assuming they said this in reference to multi-classed rogues. 4 ftr/16 rogue equals 4 main hand and 2 offhand. 4 fighter/4monk/12 rogue would be 6 main and 2 offhand with kamas. Mind you, that's not an invite to argue the virtue, or lack thereof, of multiclassed rogues.
I can't say I agree to this, as to 1 the dc needed to beat to apply it is dext related if I remember correctly. So you need a good dext to apply it, which most chars, at low level usually don't have.
I was referring to poison effects with regard to effective DC's and their result, but fair enough point.
Crippling strikes only stack up to -8 str if I remember correctly.
This is incorrect. I've taken a 72 strength enemy down to 4. So unless my GM co-tester was lying, it goes as far as you can continue to hit things.
And whoever it was that said crippling strike is barely useful in the epics (points at Weebs)... well, all I can say is that you'd respect it a lot more if you were the one tanking and finding that you stop getting hit after a while as you wear down the ultra epic boss. *Obligatory poke to follow towards some folks that I insert every chance I get* Granted, when you have already tanks in group which are so far above the norm on AC or DR that creatures are not balanced for them in an effort not to punish everyone else on the server who isn't as optimized... then I'd say it's even less likely to notice it's use since the creature probably won't even be hitting with that 60 strength to begin with. I personally base tactics around a good rogue on flank with crippling strike whenever it behooves the party tempo. Now, that party tempo shifts quickly when you have overwhelming superiority in spells insofar as to insta-kill or disable, or if in general combat your damage per round is overwhelmingly higher then their cumulative HP... then yeah, won't notice it. But the more I build, the further and further away we get from level 30 creatures with 120 HP *coughs*. I've been a fan of 1000+ lately. So admire your rogues and give them a pat on the back.
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Thanks for the info. And yeah I do love to play with my Rogue/Sd
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For crippling strike to make a difference, you must meet a creature that...
1. Has high enough HP to survive for some time.
2. High enough strength so the damage output from the creature comes from strength, and not from sneak attacks.
3. Not immune to ability drains.
4. Not otherwise quickly disposed off (think instant death and/or banishment-like spells). This point is of course directly related to number 1 too.
Those dragon-like + hydra-like creatures fit very good into this particular description (not so sure about their lack of immunity though). TP giants could potentially have fallen into this category, or does so if you have a "party" of one rogue and one fighter-type character. But with just a slightly more reasonable 4+ people party, they would fall quickly enough anyway.
Otherwise, one's back to boss monsters and that's where a huge issue appears. A large amount of the boss monsters are primary casters, not melees, so any form of str decreament has way lower priority than to disable the effects of their spells. Others tend to be undead or undead-like creatures (they are definitely over represented among the boss monsters). You need to go down in levels to mid/mid-high range to find your everyday roaming giant to find a consistent use of this feat. Actually, I can only think of one big boss that crippling strike is useful against, and that would be the arc giant king.
Crippling strike has a built-in catch 22. You need to sneak for it to work. But if you can sneak, then you are most likely ditching out tons of damage anyway, and the monster would go down quickly and the effect would have no time to stack. A non-powerbuild rogue (i.e. not 1342 attacks/round at 2883 AB) would probably need about a minute to ditch in enough attacks (10?).
Being a healer-cleric and prone to the oh-so-feared AoO, you notice that either the monsters do not really harm you at all, or you get seriously beaten up so it's not even funny (60-ish damage/hit... with a good three or four hits in a single round). The middle-ground creatures who slowly damages you... well, isn't that very easy to handle anyway?
With more super high HP creatures, yes, crippling strike will become more and more useful. But right now, there are really only one single group of high level area where you can find those, and that would be the half-dragon one.
And back to the poison topic. Scaling up the duration of poison is, as you probably have noticed too, not any earth rattling change with their present DCs. As you said, changing mechanics upwards or downwards (read: "balancing") is a great headache and inheritely flawed with the current system we have. Changing the duration would instead be to making "something of little use and ultra short on-par-with-true-strike duration" to "something of little use and a normal duration".
More or less only a pure RP win... :)
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@Chongo and Weebs - take your nerdy game mechanics debate elsewhere! Dorg might see this thread and note it has grown to 39 posts long and assume there was some contention surrounding Makashi's original assertion that might influence his decision!
:)
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There needs to be some way for poisons to be able to be used on wells...
*cackles maniacally*
And pies!
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Crippling strikes only stack up to -8 str if I remember correctly. So there is a cap to what can happen. I would imagine that there would also (or should) be a cap on how much a poison can act. It's not realist but at least it would be a compromise.
This is incorrect. I've taken a 72 strength enemy down to 4. So unless my GM co-tester was lying, it goes as far as you can continue to hit things.
As far as I know, in NWN, ability point reductions cap at the scripted minimum of 3. So you'd lower the targets strength to 3, where it caps. This also goes for poisons and other means of lowering ability stats.
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@ weebs, most giants (hill, desert) I've fought alone, only took 5 good sneak attack to take down range of 35-50 (not even criticals) And one place that crippling strike was useful was the misted village.
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Crippling strike has a built-in catch 22. You need to sneak for it to work. But if you can sneak, then you are most likely ditching out tons of damage anyway, and the monster would go down quickly and the effect would have no time to stack. A non-powerbuild rogue (i.e. not 1342 attacks/round at 2883 AB) would probably need about a minute to ditch in enough attacks (10?).
I'm not a big fan of only using part off peoples posts , but in this case you say it better then i could ......
Now change the " crippling strike " to " constitution lowering poison "
To me that adds up to : " ditching out tons off damage " with a plus from lowering constitution that at 30 points ( ? ) is higher then any other bonus someone COULD get on strikes .( correct me if I'm wrong and PLEASE tell me how to achieve that if i am ) ;)
The idea off having poisons as potent as that , requiring 13 + ( epic ) rogue lvl's to be able to use them sounds good and indeed will make the rogue unique .
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You still miss the core problem with poisons: DC
Playing a WM character, I'm quite certain you are all aware of the feasibility of receiving 100+ in damage on each crit. Now... consider the chance of critting and the chance of a level 30 monster to fail the save? You will directly see that the critting chance is far, far greater than the chance of failing a DC 26 fort save (if I recall correctly, DC 26 poison is the highest DC ones existing).
You can't take the best arguments for use of a high level creature and then apply them on a low level creature.
Low HD = low saves = always low damage from con poison
High HD = high saves = on average still low damage from con poison
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Looking at the statistics for critical hits , you should take into account that WM characters only have better odds because they spend feats on it to improve it .
So unless there is a way for other characters to take feats that make the saves others need to make higher , you should disregard them .
You will find that a WM who doesn't infest in strength and feats falls back to the critical range of the weapon they use .
So in my case 19-20 for critical hits ( longsword )
I don't know what you calculate it to be , but i come on a 19-20 that HAS to be thrown on a 20 sided dice .
Nice odds right ?
Low HD = low saves = low HP's .
High HD = high saves =higher Hp's.
The loss of HP's on high lvl's might not be much , but if you only have 30 HP to begin with and you lose 1/3 on EXTRA damage ( possibly per round )then it is substantial.( Especially if it stacks for a few rounds )
I'm not sure which character has what high saves , but i know that the will save for fighters is always low ( without specialised gear anyway ) , so i suspect other classes have their lower saves as well.
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Looking at the statistics for critical hits , you should take into account that WM characters only have better odds because they spend feats on it to improve it .
So unless there is a way for other characters to take feats that make the saves others need to make higher , you should disregard them .
You will find that a WM who doesn't infest in strength and feats falls back to the critical range of the weapon they use .
So in my case 19-20 for critical hits ( longsword )
I don't know what you calculate it to be , but i come on a 19-20 that HAS to be thrown on a 20 sided dice .
Nice odds right ?
Low HD = low saves = low HP's .
High HD = high saves =higher Hp's.
The loss of HP's on high lvl's might not be much , but if you only have 30 HP to begin with and you lose 1/3 on EXTRA damage ( possibly per round )then it is substantial.( Especially if it stacks for a few rounds )
I'm not sure which character has what high saves , but i know that the will save for fighters is always low ( without specialised gear anyway ) , so i suspect other classes have their lower saves as well.
I'm pretty sure that if you're a WM in longsword you must have improved critical in the weapon chosen, which doubles your critical threat range to 17-20. In addition every WM with 7 levels gains another additional threat range boost, so I wouldn't say that WM's should be left out of this discussion due to feats spent. Your and pretty much every melee maximizes their threat range to be more effective.
On point though, as Chongo and Weeblie have tried to establish, DC based poison attributes as they are, are only useful in the front end spectrum of levels. In epic levels they become pretty much useless and only remain an asset in quests. Epic level encounters tend to have high saves which overcome the poison DCs most of the time. Targets would fail their DCs much more seldom than a melee crits.
Either way, this discussion has become pretty much moot, because as the system currently is, poisons are not worth the effort. Some sort of overhaul would definitely help the situation.
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Uh... yes, it is in theory possible to create a WM without increasing the threat range at all (just use another weapon), that simply does make no sense. In your case, the threat range would be 19-20 as base, doubling it because of Improved Critical and another +2 from Ki Critical for a grand total of 15 - 20 (6 in 20 chance on each hit). And this is with a completely normal weapon and not something fancy with a base 18 - 20 crit range and/or keen.
In either case, it doesn't really matter.
Your argument of that con penalties are severe and good replacements for doing normal damage is all based on the assumption of failed DC. As I mentioned before, the DC is so very low so it makes no difference. A level 30 creature having a decrement of 2 con from poison gets a -30 to HP sounds a lot, but then consider that the chance of failure is about 0 in 20. Or even with a nice 3 in 20, it would mean an estimated "extra" damage of 4,5 and capping after a few hits.
After all, one reaches the second catch 22: High constitution = high fortitude save = cannot fail. Low constitution = capping quickly.
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Jan, arguing the weakness of a weaponmaster is an effort of utter futility. Particularly in the case of the WM class, the only fault of imbalance lies with the player.
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Jan, arguing the weakness of a weaponmaster is an effort of utter futility. Particularly in the case of the WM class, the only fault of imbalance lies with the player.
I'm saying that WM get its strength from feats .
Want to overhaul poisons and their durations ?
Make them effective so the DC will not stop the usefulness on higher lvl's ?
Over haul it and get it covered with feats , just like every other character needs feats to open up their strength-points .
First feat : poison use 1 , the ability to put durable LOW poisons on a weapon and a - 3 to saves for those suffering the attacks on the appropriate save .
Second feat : poison use 2 , the ability to use durable Medium poisons on a weapon and a - 6 to saves for those suffering the attacks on the appropriate saves .
Thirth feat : poison use 3 , the ability to put durable High poisons on weapons and a - 9 to saves for those suffering the attacks on the appropriate saves .
The feats should be lvl dependent and based on having some skills ( like healing skill )
That will prevent that use off poisons will be abused and that there will be a price payed for potentially extra damage .
PS @ chongo
This is not place to discuss WM , but if it gets used i will answer and if you read correctly then you know as well as every one that there is no WM if you don't take the subscribed feats and skills .
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Thank you for your input and opinions on the matter Jan. They will be taken into consideration.
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There will be no overhauling of anything.
As far as I'm concerned, the case has been sufficiently made both for and against the original suggestion. At this point, it's a determination as to whether poison is now as it is intended to be (i.e. making the crafting and use of poisons largely for RP value) or if the mechanics of poison use were simply overlooked.
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Poison is available for all and not class dependent (but heavily restricted due to RP reasons). A change on it changes it for everyone. The only bonus assassins and blackguards get is the ability to apply the poison without any failure rate (otherwise, a dex check of some sort). Would you find it super icky good still with the present DCs? Why not use it yourself?
If anything item-wise should be blocked, it should be those items giving spells.
Healer's Hug? "Item Proficiency I (Cleric)".
Helmet of Armor II? "Item Proficiency I (Druid)".
Dragon-foe-thingy? "Item Profiency III (Cleric)".
I don't think that would be a good idea...
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As an added side note...
Poison in its current shape and form isn't completely as useless as one thinks. Yes, it's use in normal game play is quite zero.
But on a quest or in the presence of a DM...? :)
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A weaponmaster gets its strengths from the class, not feats. Once you go WM, you gain things with levelup abilities. You don't have to burn any feats to get the extra AB or Critical Threat Range, only the prerequisite ones that every prestige class has demand for.
There is no grounds on comparing a WM's power to the potential imbalance of these poisons. Every prestige class has prerequisites and that's that.
Regarding the poison system I don't think it would be as fair to incorporate them as feats. NWN forces most builds to be feat intensive as it is and if we were to make poison usage a feat based ability, it would have to be of much greater effect that we've discussed here. That on its own would make it a lot harder to balance.
Just in case I also want to state that I hope I'm not coming off too rude, but NWN will never be totally balanced. Some classes will be superior in any given situation, therefore I suggest we focus on finding ways of making the poison system effective, not run around in circles trying to find proof in its possible imbalance issues.
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Disclaimer: None of my characters use posion.
Barion -like many of the monsters out there- is immune to the effects of posion.
For characters without this immunity posions are deadly. However, for monsters, this isn't the case.
So what I'm suggesting is the duration increased, one minute would be perfect
1 RL minute seems fair to me.
Cheers,
Stragen
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OK, with 3.01.5 (latest update) we're trying some increased durations. See my update notes for details.
This is a trial basis only at this point. Be responsible, and it stays. :)
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Can I get some feedback on this?
It's been in-place for a month now, and there's been no comments. Can I assume the results are satisfactory?
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Much better than it was...The dex check to apply is a bummer but oh well.:)
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It's my personal belief that doubling the DC and removing the duration, but making poison a one-hit enhancement would effectively counter the utter uselessness while keeping the system balanced.
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Unfortunately, while increasing the DC and duration are easy, "poisoning a weapon" is built into the game by Bioware, so drastically changing the mechanics would be non-trivial.
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Why is the dex check to apply so high? I mean, you don't want to poison yourself, but most poisons you put on a weapon won't hurt you if you get it on your skin. The poison has to enter the bloodstream for it to have an effect, hence why it's put on a weapon. Moreover, couldn't you apply the posion to the weapon even if you spilled some of it on yourself? Or is that actually how it works, that the poison is applied, it's just a dex check to see if you poison yourself in the process? (I've never really tried it, though others have tried to explain it to me.... I have some poison, maybe I should give it a shot)
Or am I am entering this discussion so late that the point is moot?
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Unfortunately, while increasing the DC and duration are easy, "poisoning a weapon" is built into the game by Bioware, so drastically changing the mechanics would be non-trivial.
I hope for the sake of bioware's
(or is it obsidian now?) continued NWN fan base that NWN2 is not so criminally obtuse on the system side of things.