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Author Topic: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows  (Read 212 times)

Makashi

Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« on: May 19, 2008, 08:07:30 pm »
Sadly the duration is far too short to benefit from this what so ever currently, *shrugs* Think that about sums it up.

Oh, I will add, the one time I tried using it on a target, I wasn't quite close enough, by the time I had creeped up to my target, it was already gone.

Seems ashame theres such a potentially decent craft going down the drain for the people that put the effort into it. For the same reason no one really wants to buy them, because they are simply, useless! :)

So what I'm suggesting is the duration increased, one minute would be perfect, thats not too long, but long enough to actually do something with, rather than putting the enchantment on only to see it fade before combat!
 
The following users thanked this post: Dezza, Drizzlin, Serissa, Stephen_Zuckerman, Hellblazer

Pen N Popper

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 08:23:25 pm »
Bravo!
 

darkstorme

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 08:25:50 pm »
I'm all in favour of this - since it's changing properties, rather than creating a new one, it should just be a change in one column of the des_crft_poison.2da... that is, unless Layo uses a different poison system, in which case we're up a creek without a paddle.
 

scifibarbie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 08:41:56 pm »
woo hoo!

I would also think it nice if the craft could be opened up a bit. Say...to  rangers & druids and not just neutral or evil characters.

The reason being would be that rangers know the forest and its animals, plants what they can be used for etc. They would already know what plants and animals could be deadly due their venom. It is arguable that they would be able to use it for hunting prey or whatever.

Think rainforest hunters who use it on arrows and blowgun darts. They arent inherently evil people, they are just using resources available to them.
 

darkstorme

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 09:47:17 pm »
Quote from: scifibarbie
woo hoo!

I would also think it nice if the craft could be opened up a bit. Say...to  rangers & druids and not just neutral or evil characters.

The reason being would be that rangers know the forest and its animals, plants what they can be used for etc. They would already know what plants and animals could be deadly due their venom. It is arguable that they would be able to use it for hunting prey or whatever.

Think rainforest hunters who use it on arrows and blowgun darts. They arent inherently evil people, they are just using resources available to them.


Yes and no, really.

Making poisons implies a certain moral flexibility, because what we're talking about here isn't the mild compounds used by rainforest hunters, the toxins primitively refined (or harvested straight from the source).  These are concentrated toxins, meant to inflict serious harm upon their target.

Let's look at the various sorts of damage that can be done by toxins, and what (in all likelihood) the physical manifestations of these toxins would be:

  • Strength Damage - these are almost certainly paralytic toxins that work on muscular and neuromuscular levels.  The most common spider and bivalve-related toxins that cause this effect usually cause latrodectism in victims who don't receive a fatal dose.  This is very painful, and if death doesn't result, usually results in hours or days of agony and disobedient muscles before the toxin works its way out of the target's system.

  • Constitution Damage - This is your classic murderer's poison.  Again, since it's extracted from venomous creatures, it's unlikely to be anything that sends victims gently into that good night, but something that resembles, symptomatically, arsenic or cyanide, neither of which are particularly pleasant ways to die (not that there IS a pleasant way, but still).  Again, agony and suffering until death... or until they recover.

  • Charisma Damage - It's unlikely that a mundane poison that can be processed from creatures (rather than some magical poison) could cause someone's personality to change, so this is likely a change in physical appearance.  And what would cause one's charisma to drop?  Lesions, boils, sores, inflammation, swelling, discolouration of the skin... once again, not exactly a pleasant thing to inflict on anyone, and likely painful as well (particularly the first four symptoms).

  • Dexterity Damage - This, and the two types to follow it, are likely the less unpleasant toxins.  Something that causes DEX damage could, conceivably, be a watered-down version of a neurotoxin that causes latrodectism, binding muscles and making it more difficult to move gracefully.  Or, it could be a powerful depressant, which dulls response time while falling short of knocking the target unconscious.  This latter case would be far less torturous to its victim.

  • Wisdom and Intelligence Damage - For these, I'd guess that the compounds involved would be either hallucinogenics or barbituates, designed to confuse the senses or depress higher cortical functioning.  Most of these compounds are largely painless, though in the unmeasured doses a poisoned weapon (or dart, or whatnot) would deliver, the chances of a "bad trip" are substantial, as are residual effects.
On the whole, the poisons most effective in combat (STR, CON, DEX) are the ones most likely to be akin to torture (which, as established in Layo, is not something that moral individuals would do lightly, or at all), where the victim will feel as though their body is on fire, or worse.  Even if a character forswears using those poisons themselves, the moral ambiguity surrounding making them in the first place is substantial, if they're permitted to continue existing.

Now, I've made a case going the other direction as well - but there's a good reason why Good people don't normally make poisons.

Regardless, the topic of the thread is duration of poisons - a change of which, as I said, I am entirely in favour.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2008, 01:08:28 am »
This has literally been under discussion for years.

I'm still for increasing the durations, and always, always will.
 

Pseudonym

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2008, 03:22:28 am »
Ditto
 

Drizzlin

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 03:55:09 am »
When I saw this post from a DM I opened thinking YES!!! =P We have asked for this for years, but there has been too much on the plate.
 

Dezza

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 05:28:45 am »
Yes absolutely...one of the main reasons I have gone away from my assassin Leisa is precisely because of the useless usage of poison considering I am an assassin! Its the one thing that makes the class exclusive to everyone else...the ability to use poisons without fail..and its useless!
 

Hellblazer

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 06:38:52 pm »
For both rogues and assassin in general, the use of poison would usually be a tool they use often. Their ability to sneak and get close to a target should give them a proper use, but with the short duration of all the poison it's impossible to do.

Makashi

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 04:58:36 am »
Quote from: darkstorme
since it's changing properties, rather than creating a new one, it should just be a change in one column of the des_crft_poison.2da... that is, unless Layo uses a different poison system, in which case we're up a creek without a paddle.


Would some one be able to confirm what system is in place, and if this would be easily done?
 

Dorganath

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2008, 08:14:54 am »
We're still, as far as I see, still using Bioware's default system.
 

jan

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2008, 08:23:39 am »
What would be the effect of the poisons used ?

I know that other feats are made harder ( impossible ) to get and to me it seems that an assassin with "death attack " or a rogue with " sneak attack " AND strong poisons would be considered overpowered for a system where other things are made harder ( impossible ) to get due to the world not being able to handle those .

Just a thought .
 

Makashi

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2008, 10:30:53 am »
Poison is not permanant, and the way things are, all the effort I've put into poison crafting has been pointless, due to the current poisons that are crafted being currently -useless-. And the best poison available, isn't even that good. The durations may aswell be 1 second long. You cannot make use of any of the poisons currently in place.

I'd love to see a show of hands for how many people currently use poison consistantly. I bet the figure would be very close, if not Zero.

Poison should be usable by the classes that can use them. The effects should not change, just the durations increased.

I don't honestly see how this would cause rogues/assassins to be overpowered at all, draining a bit of strength or constitution from an enemy is not going to cause you to become godlike. Most enemies will probably succeed the save in most high level areas anyway.

The system is there, and should be used, just it is unusable the way things are currently. Not asking for epic dcs, or epic effects, I am just asking for a poison that....is capable of actually being used, rather than watching the pretty green glow for a few short moments.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2008, 11:42:20 am »
I agree with Mak.

There is already a feat available for rogues, that is like one of the poison, meaning it saps the strength on a successful sneak attack. Does it makes the rogue overpower?

I'm probably one of those who uses poison on a somewhat regular basis, because I get a good supplies. But depending on where and when and who is there, as stated previously, it's somewhat pointless due to the duration. I get at most, one attack before it poofs off the blade or arrows.

Concidering that fighters have their own power feat, (imp power attack, imp knock down, overwhelming crit) Wm have their Ki attack and others, etc, the use of poison will do very little to unbalance things.

Serissa

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2008, 01:59:14 pm »
I'm tops when it comes to making poison, but it's just a hobby.  The stuff is totally useless.
 
 Ferrit
 

jan

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2008, 02:46:32 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
I agree with Mak.

There is already a feat available for rogues, that is like one of the poison, meaning it saps the strength on a successful sneak attack. Does it makes the rogue overpower?

I'm probably one of those who uses poison on a somewhat regular basis, because I get a good supplies. But depending on where and when and who is there, as stated previously, it's somewhat pointless due to the duration. I get at most, one attack before it poofs off the blade or arrows.

Concidering that fighters have their own power feat, (imp power attack, imp knock down, overwhelming crit) Wm have their Ki attack and others, etc, the use of poison will do very little to unbalance things.


That depends on how-long the poison works and what it does , don't it ?
Imagine an adept bow-person shooting arrows with poison that lowers constitution , wouldn't after a few rounds the target be close to death due to poison and the damage done by the arrows itself ?

How about a rogue with sneak attacks and two daggers covered with poison that lowers strength , wouldn't after a few attacks the target be too weak to move ?

All things that need to be taken into account in my eyes .

And then i don't even start on shadow-dancers with HIPS , ever thought about what they could do with poison that lasts a couple of rounds ?

Of-course it all depends on the fact IF the poison effects are cumulative .

To simply dismiss this by saying that at high lvl's the chances of saving are high enough , in my eyes , should then be implemented for other things that are now placed out of reach , for those too have saving throws that can be made at high lvl's.
 

Carillon

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2008, 02:48:49 pm »
For those arguing that increasing the duration of poisons would unbalance the rogue/assassin classes, please also consider that non-rogues/assassins may also craft and/or use poison, and that (I think) any class can mechanically use them. So in theory, a character who could not craft poisons could still use them by purchasing them from a PC who could craft them. (We shall temporarily ignore alignment issues, as this refers only to mechanics. Whether your character would purchase and use poisons is another matter, and one that stems from the individual character and RP.)

For an example of a character who is neither a rogue nor an assassin but is involved in poisons, consider my CN sorceress, who is level 13 in poison crafting. Making poisons was written into her character from the very start, and appears in her original biography. She has used poison (moderated by a GM) to attack an enemy by stealth, poisoning their food supply. She has sold poisons of many kinds, both to PCs and pawn brokers (whom I like to pretend are shady contacts of some sort!). She even kept a carefully stocked box for a while with a sample of all the pertinent types before I cleaned out my inventory.

That said, I don't use poisons much myself due to the short duration. Of course, my character is a sorceress and generally prefers to blow things up rather than get up close and stick them with a knife, but I believe I would use the poisons I craft on arrows when I use a bow if they had a longer duration.
 

Weeblie

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2008, 03:22:12 pm »
Poisons don't really change much.

Easy proof is the rogue crippling strike feat. -2 str on each hit (sneak?) and... uhhh.... the effect of it is still only minimal when you also consider the amount of creatures with any sort of NEP/Foe/general ability drain immunity.

Remember also that monsters do not follow the weight system as PCs do. 100000/1 lbs and they are still quite capable of moving and running (as far as I've noticed).

What could potentially be very harming would be super high DC int/wis/cha poison. I dunno if those exist... but using them on a NPC caster could really mess things up, hehe.

In either case, without looking at any code at all, I think it should be fairly simple to change the duration of poisons.
 

jan

Re: Poison Duration on weapons/arrows
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2008, 04:31:31 pm »
Quote from: Weeblie
Poisons don't really change much.

Easy proof is the rogue crippling strike feat. -2 str on each hit (sneak?) and... uhhh.... the effect of it is still only minimal when you also consider the amount of creatures with any sort of NEP/Foe/general ability drain immunity.

Remember also that monsters do not follow the weight system as PCs do. 100000/1 lbs and they are still quite capable of moving and running (as far as I've noticed).

What could potentially be very harming would be super high DC int/wis/cha poison. I dunno if those exist... but using them on a NPC caster could really mess things up, hehe.

In either case, without looking at any code at all, I think it should be fairly simple to change the duration of poisons.


What about the constitution example then ?
Suggesting that poisons that affect constitution are thrown out ?

As far as i understood , the restrictions that are implemented are not solely based on " monster behavior " but also on the impact it COULD have on player characters .

I for one would expect , that if duration of poisons are extended , that NPC's must also be able to use poisons .

This should include EVERY NPC with even a touch of a class that CAN use poisons .

Question then is : is it desirable to have that ?
Is any one waiting on a way to have their character killed by NOT being able to react due to poison ?
Or because the combined penalties from constitution affecting poison and arrows provide to be an easy way for your character to die with out having the opportunity to even fight back ?
 

 

anything