Dire Wolf -4 search?

[Desicardo]

On a quest the other night I summoned my Dire wolf animal companion to help track some missing children.  I was somewhat dismayed to find out that my wolf was -4 to search checks.  I am not sure why a wolf with keen senses would be -4 to search.  K9 type species have legendary tracking skills as they are often used to sniff out bombs and drugs, used by police to track missing persons and such.  I wouldn't think a wolf or dire wolf in game would be much different.  Since this is primarily an RP thing since animal companions don't often do searches on their own under normal circumstances, is it possible to alter the characteristics to make a search check a bit more realistic to what a wolfs capabilities would be?  Not sure if this is something that can be changed or if it is hardcoded but I would like to be able to use my wolf for RP tracking in future quests but when the checks come out that I can pick up a scent better than my animal companion, not sure if I really want to do that.
Desi

[ycleption]

Well, unfortunately it's an intelligence based skill, so the animal is taking a hefty penalty.
I agree, it makes no sense in most circumstances.
So DMs will often either let you roll a spot check for your companion, or will just fudge the role.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Huh. That is kind of cruddy.

[Blackguy]

Maybee we need more Lassie dogs to sniff out drugs and bombs in Layo.

[Desicardo]

Well, I did get firebombed by a scorpion while digging sand in the desert yesterday. lol

[Desicardo]

Thinking logically about this, it would make more sense at least to me if a search check was wisdom based rather than intelligence.  Intelligence according to NWNWiki is 'how well your character learns and reasons' which has little to do with how well a person or animal can find something they are seeking.  Included among the things wisdom effects is perception or how well a character understands or is aware of their surroundings.  It makes more sense that in searching, you are looking for something against the backdrop of your normal surroundings and would be based on the perception of those surroundings.  The ability to pick up a scent would be the perception of a different odor from what would be considered the array of normal scents in any given area.  A character searching for traps would be looking for any telltale sign that an area was tampered with to disguise a traps location.  In searching for an item, you are seeking out by physical description, a specific item and differentiating it from any similar items that may be about.  All of these cases have to do with how well a character perceives their surroundings rather than how much they can learn or think through a situation.  I know that this is something that cannot be changed in game mechanics, but in researching what attributes would be encompassed by the wisdom and intelligence stats, it seems to me that wisdom would be the more accurate base to work from.

[Acacea]

Investigation attempts are generally considered intelligence based. To just look around and immediately see where something has been tampered with or does not belong - that is a spot check, and is indeed WIS-based. Search is considered a more methodical and logical process. "Check inside the clock." "Look for triggers under the brick." "False bottoms in the chest." and other such telltale or habitual signs that become a part of the routine...

[LordCove]

I could be wrong of course.. .but the Dire Wolf is more the "bite this! Bite that!" Beefy melee mutt to help out the Ranger/Druid in fighting.

The standard Wolf animal companion has much higher stats.. but of course... is pretty useless at the fighting part.

Guess it comes down to wanting a Strong side-kick to help you fight with, or a wily wolf with a good nose.
Upgrade the Dire Wolf to better actual Search/Spot stats... and the standard Wolf model may as well be removed since it becomes useless.

[ycleption]

Acacea, that's a good explanation of why the animals aren't good at searching, but still leaves the problem (both for players and DMs) of how to mechanically represent sniffing out trails, or other ways an animal could accomplish the same thing as a human would by "searching." Obviously, with a bit of time a DM could come up with something, and a player can fudge it by rolling spot or something (d20+companion level?), but without something a little more standardized, it can still result in wildly differing results. One day, an animal companion is a master of tracking, able to catch the slightest sniff of blood left after a heavy rainfall, the next day, the poor animal can't detect a rotting corpse right in front of it's face. To me, the game mechanics should be able to consistently represent creative roleplay, which it doesn't do (there are similar issues with druids when shifted, but that's a whole different topic). for me at least, the primary value of the animal companion is RP, and being able to use the companion's senses where the master is unable to go (neither spot nor search are druid skills). So the real problem isn't that search isn't a dire wolf skill, (especially if we accept Acacea's interpretation of the skill) but that there isn't any other way to represent to mechanically deal with animals.

@LC:
According to nwn wiki:
Both wolves and dire wolves as animal companions take skills in spot, but not in search.
Wolves get hide, listen, move silently, and spot.
Dire wolves get listen and spot.

Even if wolves did get ranks in search, it's still taking a -4 penalty, since it only has 3 intelligence.

(incidentally, the only companion that does get search ranks is the hawk, which isn't a terribly useful companion in Layo since it's principal advantage is disarm)

[Desicardo]

This is a little off topic, but, Search and Spot are both active sensory checks done when a person is actively looking for something be it a book, trap, enemy, whatever.  What about the passive perception of the things around (this doesn't necessarily apply just to animals or animal companions)?  For instance, a cop with years of service becomes keenly aware of details and can quickly pick up on a persons clothing, the make and model of a car or license plate, etc.  A soldier on a tour of duty in a war zone becomes greatly aware of his environment, even when at base and off duty due to the constant exposure to danger.  On the flip side, I know several people that a train could go through their living room and they would be blissfully unaware.  This type of perception and awareness isn't really addressed other than with the awareness skill but that doesn't reflect a progression or increase in skill over a period of time.  I know this is not something that can be done in Layo, but perhaps somewhere down the road in the new version, perception could be added as a skill that would grow over time to reflect a characters increased awareness of his surroundings as would happen with constant exposure to danger that comes with adventuring.  I am not talking a reflex save or an immediate reaction to a dangerous situation, rather a passive ability to walk into an area and sense that something is amiss, be it from an odor, a slight distortion of light, an odd movement of weeds, or what have you.  It isn't something active, as a person walking into their own home isn't looking for things out of place, but a perceptive person may notice a book moved or paper out of place to detect whether someone has been there that shouldn't have been.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic since I highjacked my own thread

[Filatus]

Actually I always imagined Search to be an active methodical approach, whereas Spot can be active or passive. Spot is modified by wisdom after all, and together with Listen is a person's perceptiveness of his surroundings.

Perceptiveness is one of the key attributes of wisdom.

[LightlyFrosted]

From what I understand, Desicardo, the situation you're describing would actually be best described as a spot check.  Where slow, methodical searching, such as looking for traps or secret passageways might be better covered under the 'Search' skill, 'Spot' has always struck me as an 'on the spot, notice what's happening about you' skill.  A character with a high spot would be better at Kim's Game, whereas a character with high search would be better at hide-and-go-seek, a treasure hunt, or possibly manhunt.

So far as scent goes, this is really touch-and-go for me.  A lot of players have their characters sniffing around using the spot mechanic, because the scent mechanic is reserved to a very limited base of characters.  Small sounds would, of course, be best covered under the 'listen' mechanic, which would be situationally appropriate in many of the same venues as spot, although a clever GM could no doubt find alternate and creative uses for all three of spot, listen, and search.