Author Topic: Remove Disarm Feat from Whip (Read 1315 times)

xsweetpeaxs · « **on:** February 18, 2012, 04:42:38 pm »

Hi,

I read that the Disarm feat does not work for Layonara "whip". I have several questions:

1. Does the Disarm feat raise level requirement to use the whip?

2. If so, can we remove the Disarm feat so the level requirement of the whip is lowered?

3. If we cannot remove the Disarm feat due to NWN mechanic, can we manually lower the level requirement to use the whip (perhaps lower a couple of levels)?

Considering the feat does not work for Layonara, I do not think this is going to make things unbalance.

Guardian 452 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:18:30 pm »

Whips can have the Disarm Feat removed. I just tried using the NWN toolset. It would just require the team to go back and remake all the whips we have in game at present.

So as far asNWN toolset mechanics it is possible to remove the feat.

However a base whip with only the Disarm feat is level 1. I made a few test whips in the mid teen level... removing the Disarm Feat does not lower the level to equip at all.

So, the Disarm Feat does not raise the level of Layo whips at all according to my tests.

G-452

Dorganath · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:33:28 pm »

The bonus disarm feat on whips has little to no effect on the level requirement to use any given whip. It is a special version of the item property specifically intended for whips that adds almost no cost to the item, and thereby does not increase its level requirement. At the lowest level (Cloth Whip), there is zero effect and the level requirement is 1. In the example of the Hellish Whip, the bonus feat only adds a relatively small amount to the item's value, but not enough to change its level requirement if removed.

As I see it presently, there's no need to remove this at all. It's not likely to impact anyone's ability to use any given whip. If it were the more standard version of Bonus Feat: Disarm, it would likely increase the level requirement. The Cloth Whip would go up to a level 5 requirement. However, this is not the case as currently designed and implemented.

EDIT: G beat me to it...so just confirming what he said. *grins*

xsweetpeaxs · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:52:39 pm »

Oh I did not know that. Thank you for the fast responses

Guardian 452 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2012, 08:57:24 pm »

I didnt either so I figured I'd go play around in the toolset and see.

drakogear · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2012, 09:14:51 pm »

Quote from: xsweetpeaxs

Considering the feat does not work for Layonara, I do not think this is going to make things unbalance.

How does the disarm feat not work for Layo? There are humanoids that wield weapons and the disarm feat forces them to draw a second melee weapon... if they have a second, forced into unarmed combat if they don't (allowing attacks of opportunity if they don't have improved unarmed strike.)

In my opinion the reason NWN gave whips the disarm bonus feat (added to combat (sword icon) feats in radial menu) because of the length and flexibility of whips. They wrap around the blade and/or shaft of the weapon and with a tug, pulls the weapon out of there hands.

Additionally with the stronger and more powerful whips(ones with a high level req.), I would rather suggest adding the improved disarm feat to them.

xsweetpeaxs · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2012, 01:48:41 pm »

Quote from: ycleption

//please do note that the disarm feat does not work against monsters in Layo, just fyi.

This is where I got the info from. I do not know where the original source is. If anyone does, please reference here.

Lance Stargazer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2012, 01:59:10 pm »

[LORE]Disarm[/LORE]
[LORE]Improved Disarm[/LORE]

Quote

Monsters cannot be disarmed; therefore, the Improved Disarm feat is not useful.

drakogear · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2012, 08:44:51 pm »

Of course monsters can't be disarmed... they don't have weapon... unless there's a way to cut off there hands or talons or w/e... but not everything you fight in layo are monters.

Orcs, skeletons, gnols, kobalts, goblins, sahuagin, player races... pretty much anything that can (and are currently) wield a weapon can thus be disarmed.

From the notes in the NWN wiki about the Disarm feat If an NPC is wielding a non-droppable weapon when successfully disarmed, the weapon is destroyed instead of being placed on the ground.

Note it says non-droppable weapon. Thus if already unarmed (no weapons/creature weapons) they can not be disarmed.

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:55:31 am »

Quote

Orcs, skeletons, gnols, kobalts, goblins, sahuagin,

I'm pretty sure it's actually set up (for Layo) that no NPC can be disarmed (Dorg can confirm this), the reason being that when a monster (such as an orc wielding a great-axe) is disarmed, their weapon hits the ground and PCs can pick it up. Because the disarmed weapon becomes lootable, it presents balance problems for the PW. We have monsters out there using +3, +4, and even +5 weapons. Assuming you could disarm them all, there'd be almost no point in crafting weapons, as you'd find everything you needed from monsters. Not to mention the flood of weapons onto the market and through the already drained pawnshops.

drakogear · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2012, 10:29:36 am »

Well, the solution there is to have those weapons be non-dropable... in witch case they are destroyed rather than knocked to the ground... additionally to help prevent a weapon from being disarmed there is always the discipline check made against the disarming characters attack bonus (I think)... the one wielding the larger weapon getting a +4 bonus per size category to there check (not very good for halflings... giants on the other hand...) Additionally the disarming character gets a -6 to there attack roll and provoke an attack of opportunity from there opponent... unless they have improved disarm (Kinda take back that part about adding imp. disarm to greater whips, mis-recalled it at the time)

Was kinda thinking I'd try giving Sig disarm and try it on some one... an orc perhaps... My thought descriptive wise:

*Sig block his opponents next attack and forces his weapon to the ground then. With it still firmly held in his opponents hand Sig gives the weapon a hard chop and breaks the blade and/or hand of there weapon* //thus destroying the weapon. :p

Additionally I had an idea for a character that fought purely (or atleast mostly) by parrying and countering his opponents attacks (not necessarily with the duelist class however) and in addition he'd be able to disarm his opponents... though my desired result from witch would require a gms assistance perhaps...

*disarms and knocks his opponent down then points his sword down at his opponent* //Gm could then control the opponent and end its combat mode and perhaps change it from hostile to neutral... additionally... can't pvp with out gm supervision.

Now with that later example... and perhaps the earlier one too... disarm IMO can make for some interesting role play... right?

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2012, 11:17:29 am »

Disarm is absolutely acceptable and useful during GM'd quests, just not really in general adventuring due to what's stated above. As far as the weapons being destroyed once leaving the 'hands' of the monsters, I don't know how logistically possible that is. Someone more versed in the technical aspect of the game engine and script itself would need to comment.

drakogear · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2012, 12:53:33 pm »

its stated in the NWN wiki link I posted. if the weapon is non-droppable then it is destroyed instead. This likly applies to bound/cursed weapons or some such.

Dorganath · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:24:29 pm »

For reasons stated, I am almost certain that Disarm was changed from NWN standard to better fit Layonara. In that, disarmed weapons are neither dropped nor destroyed but rather returned to inventory. I've had neither the time nor inclination to check/verify this, however. I've been told that this behavior has been observed in-game, but also that sometimes a disarmed weapon in the hands of a PC has ended up on the ground. There are multiple reasons why this might happen, but it means that it is within the realm of possibility that whatever was done to modify Disarm for Layonara may be subject to lag.

It is, however, pretty safe to say that Disarm will never drop an NPC's weapon on the ground if it was not already meant to drop as loot. For as much as I have seen and built, almost no NPC equipment is marked as droppable. Only that which would drop as loot will end up on the ground from the hands of an NPC.

In other words, the monster might have a +5 Sword of Awesome in his hand, but when killed, you may only get a Plain Old Dagger of Boring.

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:31:56 pm »

So the decision sounds like it's about NPCs not causing PCs to lose their weapon to an area clean-up script if the weapon hits the ground rather than a PC collecting +5 weapons in surplus, if I understand correctly.

Dorganath · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:51:19 pm »

Quote from: miltonyorkcastle

So the decision sounds like it's about NPCs not causing PCs to lose their weapon to an area clean-up script if the weapon hits the ground rather than a PC collecting +5 weapons in surplus, if I understand correctly.

Primarily, yes. That which would prevent Disarm from causing an NPC's weapon to drop on the ground is less a matter of making any changes to Disarm and more a matter of how creatures have been built and how our loot system works. Already, nearly every piece of NPC equipment is non-droppable. The only things that are droppable are 1) spawned there as part of the loot-drop system, 2) placed there by a GM 3) intended to drop every time (typically only on "boss" or quest creatures) or 4) mistakes.

As such, there's no additional work that would have to be done to keep Disarm from putting NPC weapons on the ground for PCs to take.

Make sense?

drakogear · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:06:58 pm »

Well then... that just leaves me to ask... when disarming an NPC (forcing there weapon into there inventory) well they then just simply pull it back out or continue fighting without?

Same just about applies to PC... but then again PC should pretty much know not to... why? cause... there disarmed... though forcing the weapon into there inventory... almost sounds like... *grabs your sword from your hand and slips it back into you scabert* O.o

In reality... when you disarm someone... the weapon is going to fall to the ground... or moved to the other persons hands... if they weren't already holding anything. Though I'm sure the later couldn't ever be implemented and the former... well... as miltonyorkcastle mentioned about an area clean-up script (of witch I was a little unaware of) would take away the players weapon should it still be on the ground at the time.

Anyways... just the question is all I'm wandering now... would a disarmed NPC simply redraw there weapon or continue fighting without?

Dorganath · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:16:08 pm »

Quote from: drakogear

Anyways... just the question is all I'm wandering now... would a disarmed NPC simply redraw there weapon or continue fighting without?

Yes, that's potentially possible, but that's all up to the AI.

I think we can all understand what would happen "in reality" but real-time computer games have limitations and other issues which we have to accept, especially when we do not have complete control over or the ability to alter the core game engine.

In other words, it is what it is.

drakogear · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:21:37 pm »

Hm... are there any weapons that PCs get that are undroppable? if not then why not just leave the destroy undroppable weapon part? The NPC would still just respawn with a new weapon after its killed wouldn't it?

Dorganath · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2012, 10:30:25 pm »

Typically no, there are no undroppable weapons for PCs. There have been other items that are undroppable, but only because they are static quest rewards.

Regardless, best case is the AI does not re-equip the weapon that was disarmed and worst case, it causes the NPC to spend an action on re-equipping its weapon. Either way, it's an advantage to the attacker.

Other than maximizing accuracy with what is defined in D&D (see also my comment that NWN is not D&D), is there a significant problem with the way it is presently implemented. As a secondary question, is the perceived benefit that may be gained worth the effort and potential complexity to change it? These are questions I ask myself for every potential change or addition we make here.