The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Teo on January 21, 2013, 10:16:44 am
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Sneaking in Layonara is somehow a bit of a unused idea. All rogues have points in it, but what good does it really do? You can go into a room and see how many there are, but you can't really do anything. I like it for roleplay, but perhaps there is a way to make the sneak attack something you can do while sneaking?
The idea of sneaking around a camp and taking out the sentries by dragging them into the bushes doesn't really work in Layonara. I think that all rogues should get a feat at some level that makes you able to stay hidden after a sneak attack, if you have the skill. The round after a sneak attack, your hide and move silently skills gets a -10 penalty,the next round a -6, the next is -3, and then you are back to normal. This way, it gives you a chance to stay hidden and take out a few enemies before running back to the dwarfs.
Just a random idea to consider!
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There is .. its called Hide in Plain Sight. But as with the mechanics in the game it does not always work right. And as for attacking during a sneak attack ... you can do it, its just that if you are close enough to other creatures the sudden disappearance/fall of a comrade will raise an alarm. (Draw aggro)
Sneaking is not an unused idea. It is used all the time. Infiltrating, scouting, getting past an enemy that is in your path ...
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Sneaking in Layonara is somehow a bit of a unused idea. All rogues have points in it, but what good does it really do? You can go into a room and see how many there are, but you can't really do anything. I like it for roleplay, but perhaps there is a way to make the sneak attack something you can do while sneaking?
I agree mechanically it does not work the best and is the nature of the beast we call NWN. The good thing is that GMs can make things happen the way we want if given notice of a character's intent before hand. Mind you that is only when a GM is around and usually means you are on some sort of quest.
You will be surprised some of the crazy idea you guys come up with while we run quests. What is even crazier is that you manage to pull them off. Just remember their is more to this then just NWN mechanics. I know I reward characters who think and act outside the mechanical system.
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Additionally, I would like to add that sneaky characters can play out their skills best if the GM in question is not tasked with determining the actions of 12+ players all squeaking and mewling for attention with what they want to do. A nice, albeit slow and prone to timing-issues way to go about it is the forums, PM or IRC. We'll see what those features are that orth mentioned earlier, possibly, they could simplyfy a few things. A good way to go about pure roleplay or things out of the box is to write a GM about what you want your character to do, write it out and see what happens, In my opinion. Scout out what the enemies of your character are up to, find information long before you keep the whole party waiting. Get things rolling, plan something, do something, write about it (or make it trackable at least, I guess) and then go IC and make it happen, mechanically. At least I found that to be possibly good thing to do during larger quests/plot events/schemes driven by your own character. All classes can do it, of course, it is not limited to rogues. Or wizards. Or bards. But some classes can unfold their potential better if given some time, and time is not something you always might have as a player and a GM when on a quest scheduled to run 2 hours for more than, let's say, 6 people. The smaller the group, the better the chances that you can use the strengths of your character to solve the obstacle or problem that's keeping you from reaching whatever goal you set for yourself.
I hope it's clear what I mean, despite the wall of text.
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Additionally, I would like to add that sneaky characters can play out their skills best if the GM in question is not tasked with determining the actions of 12+ players all squeaking and mewling for attention with what they want to do.
I'm just going to go on official record saying: this (and really most of the rest of the post but specifically this) doesn't come off well in support of any point you might be trying to make here. Every person who come to a quest is entitled to contribution and playing their characters to the best of their ability. If there's some kind of issue about how GMs divide up their time or deal with certain issues, I think that's a little (or a lot) outside the bound of the OP's intended discussion. Take critique of quest running of GM involvement during quest sessions to another thread.
~row
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That was not what I meant, rowana. I just pointed out that some things are better to play in small groups, so that the others do not have to wait for too long. This is no critic on how the GMs run quests or such. It is just an observation that it is more hard to play out certain things with a large group, and easier with a small one, thus, indirectly suggesting to chose small groups for RP involving, in this case, the roleplay of stealth. Nothing more.
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I think your underestimating the usefulness of stealth. Sure the NWN mechanics don't give you that whole take down/drag away stuff you see in many stealth games (of which I love aswell) but you should realize NWN (D&D and Forgotten Relms) even Layonara are party based games and as such the sneak attack (and assassins death attack) are more of a support ability designed to help the party take out enemies in a fight.
As for attacking and disappearing again, HiPS is exactly that. As for it not working all time. Thats simply the matter of some one catching you trying to slip away (failing initial hide check as you re-enter stealth)
Now back to the usefulness of stealth. Much of which is mostly role play but hey Layo is all about role play isn't it? As you should know rogues are not the only class that can sneak, though perhaps the best when it comes to role playing a stealth character. Rangers, Bards and Monks are also great at sneaking.
some of the many things one can do as a stealth character is:
1. Scouting: Essentially finding who, what and how many are in a room/area then reporting that to the party so they may be better prepared or perhaps finding an alternate route around any dangers. This may also involve getting through locked doors, disarming traps and perhaps even setting up traps of your own. (mostly roguish though rangers can also set traps)
2. Spying: A lot like scouting. One might sneak up to a door or near a group and over hear (listen check) talk/plans of attack/ambush/siege/etc which can then be relayed back to the party and/or kingdom... could also learn of a secret stash and find it yourself.
3 Sabotage: Sneaking into a camp and setting traps, reworking something to do something its not supposed to (activating a golem or w/e to run amok in the camp), freeing caged animals and letting them run wild in the camp and generally anything to cause panic and disorder among your enemies. (pretty much one of the most role playable things a stealth character can do.)
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Guys...how about this idea. How about an epic feat where you don't suffer the slow effect whilst in sneak mode. Hence you can still walk and run at normal pace whilst stealthed. The usual mechanics for breaking stealth still apply.
Have a dex, MS & Hide pre-req.
Cheers,
Polak
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Where does Enzo sign up for this new feat!? :)
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Guys...how about this idea. How about an epic feat where you don't suffer the slow effect whilst in sneak mode. Hence you can still walk and run at normal pace whilst stealthed. The usual mechanics for breaking stealth still apply.
Have a dex, MS & Hide pre-req.
Cheers,
Polak
I think the movement rate reduction is built into the game engine, sadly, just as it is in "detect" mode.
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If the mechanical slowing effect cannot be turned off, maybe the suggested feat could be designed such that it gives an expeditious retreat effect when sneak mode turns on, effectively negating the slow effect?
Also, maybe add to the pre-req of the feat that it's only for rogues (such as for one of the special rogue feats) and assassins.
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That also got me thinking , if that isn't possible maybe an Epic feat that is active whilst sneaking with whatever weapon he has equiped , a "on hit stun dc 14" ...
My thinking behind this allows the rogue to use his sneak abilities and the element of supprise his eniemies wouldn't know what hit him sort of thing
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People don't always think about sneaking i guess when playing a rogue.
When playing a rogue most people sneak ahead and see what is there... but that is not what a rogue would do... they would sneak up and place traps in the way of the on coming mobs and then go back... that is the usefulness of sneak, most people don't even loot the traps.
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That also got me thinking , if that isn't possible maybe an Epic feat that is active whilst sneaking with whatever weapon he has equiped , a "on hit stun dc 14" ...
My thinking behind this allows the rogue to use his sneak abilities and the element of supprise his eniemies wouldn't know what hit him sort of thing
Rogues already have something like that and can be gotten before epic levels though have to have atleast 10 rogue levels and only when choosing rogue special feats (Maybe as regular feat after 10 rogue also. not sure)
LORE: Crippling Strike (http://lore.layonara.com/Crippling%20Strike)
though to get the stun effect the target would have to pretty much be near burdened... unless the STR damage stacks with each sneak attack.
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People don't always think about sneaking i guess when playing a rogue.
When playing a rogue most people sneak ahead and see what is there... but that is not what a rogue would do... they would sneak up and place traps in the way of the on coming mobs and then go back... that is the usefulness of sneak, most people don't even loot the traps.
Hehe...my palemaster takes skills in set-disable traps. I'm building up a nice collection of trap kits. I'd love to see however traps and poison being a little more powerful.
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Another idea about traps, rather than only placing your own traps, recover the enemy traps you find before the party goes ahead, turn them around to be your own traps, use what you find that the enemy has placed to trap you, to trap them. turn the hand of battle the other way.
too many rogues i think want to treat sneaking like invisibility for the mages... well sneaking is much better than invisibility, if used properly... fighters do the damage, rogues have other uses, and shouldn't be played like a figher or a barbarian. I think maybe there should be more things for a rogue to do, such as activate things that maybe the enemy thought they were in control of, balistas, catapults, statues with magic powers that the enemy was going to use against the party. sneaking in and causing chaos is what a rogue would do best. Sabotage. A mage can turn invisible or cast greater sanctuary and go look ahead, but not many mages can set up a nice fat trap in the middle of the road... sneak right through enemy territory and turn the balistas on the people that thought they were in control of them... toss fire bombs and disappear into the shadows. As for HIPS being bugged, it might be kind of bugged but i think it has more to do with the enemy's spot check and listen check. most people forget about the listen check, mostly mages thinking invisibility makes them silent. Using HIPS works on your hide check and trying to disappear right in front of someone doesn't always work, so neither does HIPS.. After you hide, if you start moving your now using your move silent skill, every round the enemy gets a new spot check and a new listen check to try and see or hear you... they could succeed at any time.
A party with a good rogue and a good mage that can work out strategy could be a powerful pair, suppose you walk into a huge cavern filled with baddies walking around and you notice they've set up traps, you sneak in and recover those traps for yourself and set them up all on top of each other at a location.. now you signal your mage who is standing by to where your traps are... now you need a distraction.. so the rogue, well he pops out the shadows on the other side of his traps and lures the two separated groups of baddies closer to his trap, and disappears, signals his mage friend again and pops out the shadows again this time luring them right into the traps as a whole unit, if the traps don't get them, the mage with an aoe spell or fireball or some other nasty will finish them off in one big puff.
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Hehe...my palemaster takes skills in set-disable traps. I'm building up a nice collection of trap kits. I'd love to see however traps and poison being a little more powerful.
i'm sure there are lots of mages that take some set-disable traps skill, but if you are (like me) it's very low compared to a real rogue and what they could do, and i am sure there are some nasty traps out there... mages wish their spells would do more damage as well, some of them know to stack the spells for double and tripple the effects... the same holds true for traps, stack them... a good rogue can set more powerful traps than any mage can do, unless the mage is suffering from loss in other skills he needs to try and be a rogue... and i agree, there should be more powerful traps available to the rogue... that's the rogues true usefulness, not in weilding weapons.
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I also think (if they can't already) that rogues should be able to lock doors and even trap them quickly... with a DC based on their skill... that could save lives.
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Rogues that get caught.
Well rogues that get caught need to run to their fighter friends yelling mission failed... time to hit them hard! hehe.
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I'm not sure how big an area a set trap can take up, but maybe increasing the area the trap covers could be something to think about, i'm sure there has to be a way to do this, maybe some kind of script that places identical traps, one to the right and one to the left of the original trap the player placed to cover more space... that would increase the usefulness of the rogues skills more than trying to make them a fighter. Traps are to the rogue what spells are to the mage.
Assassins i could see doing more damage, as they are trained in being more deadly with weapons, but that's just an advanced rogue... an assassin would go in and kill the leader without having to take down the leaders forces... or go in and assassinate all the catapult operators, or even just sabotage them to explode when used... that sort of thing.
Think Hitman.
Maybe the rogue could be master of disguise as well, maybe give them the ability to disguise themselves among the same sized creature, (some sort of clothing or something that makes the monsters behave differently till they are found out)
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i see them as good support class , Disclaimer here - purly mechanicly wise ,
they let there friend engage firstly (fighters) after scouting ahead telling them how many ect.... then they duck in to the shadows and once the pure muscle of the group has engaged they either sneak in flanking the enermy , aiming for all the weak armoured points (sneak attack) Or sit poping them with arrows.
So my surgestion would tie into this it wouldnt over power them , just allow them to give more support , poping out of the shadows unexpectedly and stunning them maybe whilst they are otherwise occupied.
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Interesting ideas. I play a rogue and I've noticed it's one of the most popular second classes in the game, for sneak attack and skill points alone. I'm assuming these feats are for ten levels or rogue or more? Because offering them to anyone with five levels of rogue in their background would be unbalancing, imo.
however - as I have heard directly from one of the few pure-class rogues in the game, when I asked him about which feats to take - a rework/touch up of some of the rogue level-ten-plus bonus feats would be nice.
one opinion though, sneak speed should not be modified. If anything, invis should have an MS check incorporated, rather than making sneak faster, because...you're sneaking. You are moving from cover to cover, maybe in bursts, but only when conditions are right, which means possible long waits for eyes to turn. You're trying to keep your feet light and not step on anything noisy, nor cough, nor bump or scrape a wall or a tree...these things take time, and they should. Even if we could "speed up" ms and hide, I'd be against it. Doesn't make a lick of sense.
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To my idea it would be an epic feat for Rogues with 10 lvls , a bonus feat as such but this bonus feat only kicks in once your are an epic pc .
And the main thing id like to see which would probably make sneaking much better in my eyes , if your sneaking and something has Trues sight , you should be still hidden i feel ( if your hidden in some bushes , shrubs , why would a monster with true sight be able to see you?)
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To my idea it would be an epic feat for Rogues with 10 lvls , a bonus feat as such but this bonus feat only kicks in once your are an epic pc .
And the main thing id like to see which would probably make sneaking much better in my eyes , if your sneaking and something has Trues sight , you should be still hidden i feel ( if your hidden in some bushes , shrubs , why would a monster with true sight be able to see you?)
The True Seeing issue has been discussed a lot with regards to Stealth, and the fact is that it's a technological compromise that Bioware made.
I agree that True Seeing should not be able to "see" hidden creatures. In a tabletop game, that wouldn't happen. At the same time, a Rogue should not be able to enter Stealth mode standing in the middle of a field in front of people, which also wouldn't happen in a tabletop game. Don't bring up HiPS, because that's a special case.
But since Bioware made the compromises it did, True Seeing is a balancing force to Stealth (as well as Invisibility, which has other counters of course). It's not perfect, but it's no more broken than Stealth is....or invisibility for that matter.
It's also worth mentioning that True Seeing as an ability has also been used to mimic Tremor Sense for creatures that dwell underground, so again, it's a balancing factor.
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i see them as good support class , Disclaimer here - purly mechanicly wise ,
they let there friend engage firstly (fighters) after scouting ahead telling them how many etc....
then they duck in to the shadows and once the pure muscle of the group has engaged they either sneak in flanking the enermy,
aiming for all the weak armoured points (sneak attack) Or sit poping them with arrows.
So my surgestion would tie into this it wouldnt over power them, just allow them to give more support
, poping out of the shadows unexpectedly and stunning them maybe whilst they are otherwise occupied.
A support class, I keep hearing that from a lot of folks here. Support for what?
fighting enemies? I suppose if that's the only goal that exists, that would be fine.
AD&D is not all about fighting, it's not about mining, it's not about killing things, it's not about just any one thing.
A rogue is a class, plain and simple. It could be used to support a team of fighters getting them through doors, or removing traps,
but calling it, or any other class a support class is kind of demeaning.
It's kind of like saying my class is better than your class... when in truth you can play the adventure (the original champaign)
all the way through and beat it with any class.
Being that AD&D simulates real life using various kinds of dice calling one class more important that some other class is like saying
soldiers are more important than farmers in real life... in truth one could not exist without the other and both play very different
and very important roles supporting each other.
When no DMs are present running a quest it's my feeling that the fighters like to feel the most important.
Most mages are shot to the back, along with rogues and clerics that aren't built for fighting.. most of the fighters on the server
(that i've played with) and some of the fighting clerics and pallys, don't seem to have a lick of strategy when it comes to using the
group and are usually seen rushing in separately trying to prove their worth.. (example villiage of the mists for those of you that were with).
That is a limit that can truely be a party killer.
When a DM shows up the server feels more alive to me, less mechanical. I appreciate a good dm that comes in and out of the blue stirs up trouble.
Especially trouble that slows down a fighter (and I'm not talking about more monsters).
I wish the server had more things to slow down one sided parties. Things that would make a groups talents all be used and not just rely on a single
class.
To support my arguement I'm going to quote an excerpt from a book, sorry.
Here it is from the book AD&D Dungeonscape 3.5:
Chapter 1, page 14
"Rogues:
Your purpose in the dungeon is, frankly, to do everything. You are the skill expert, and the rest of the party relies on your expertise.
Other characters probably do not have disable device, knowledge dungeoneering, and open lock, so make sure you have plenty of ranks in
those skills."
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Nope purely and simply - Alll mechanics are there to support your Imagination and your Role play , to allow you to have fun