some thoughts

[jan]

1 : To stop the overflow of crafters , maybe dis-engaging travel exp from crafting exp would help ?
Thought about this because a lot off new chars are picking up crafting because its a nice way to help them lvl or so they themselves say if you ask why they picked up crafting .

2 : Since some updates made it far harder again for fighter characters to get exp , wouldn't it be about time to make it a bit harder for spell-using characters as-well ?
I don't know anything about changes that have been made to force them - as is done with fighter characters in The Thunderpeaks for example - to go out in balanced groups .
A simple solution would be to include in each spawn at-least one creature that is 100 % magical resistant i think .
Since i haven't heard anything about the - kill summons in one blow creatures - that was being worked on a while back , it would help balance things a bit again . ( at-least in my opinion )

Looking forward to find out how the team thinks about this .

Regards , Jan A.K.A. Barion

[Pibemanden]

*Sighs*Really I am sad to see that it is still an issue with figthers vs. mages. Let me explain how it works right now...

Mage stuff is way more balanced than before, there isn't any magical thing we can do that will make us kill everything that gets in our way. It is no way near the pre V3 days where you could simply use instant death magic on everything. This is no longer true, some spells works better than others, but that has always been like that no save always works. But well if you look at what has no save you will find that those spells aren't really all that great.
Fighters have another big big advantage, they keep on getting better. No offence but mages are capping at level 26, with epic spell penetration they can breach all creature magic resistance they will come across (Except the kind cast by clerics that gets better than 32 SR). After this point the mage will only gain minimal DC increases from intelligence and given that most mages at this point have maxed out with their DC on a choosen school through feats that wont get any better either.
Another thing of note is that after level 26 and really also a bit before mages starts to loose their soloing potential. Surely we can still solo all the things we usually can but solo for xp becomes really hard. The problem is like I stated before that we can only do so much damage wise while a fighter keeps on damaging as long as (s)he is standing plus the DC of the mages spell starts to become no match for the 30+ saves creatures out there.
While the fighters have the thunderpeaks which has now been changed quite a bit, for the better I would like to add, the mages have no place where they can gain xp at that level without having a fighter with them or having a whole lot of time. And even if they try it is as great risk as the fighters who try now.
So if you think that mages have an advantage now you should try taking a look at who is high level on the server. All of the really high mages +25 are in balanced groups and travel almost only in groups. When we don't travel in groups I believe most are soloing things that aren't even close to their CR. Sure mages are the most evil things at 12-26 but after that it is rather dull to play one. You will need a fighter to go somewhere where you gain xp. And I believe that this is even what the 12-26 mages does, because soloing is dangerous unless you are very high level and know what you are doing.
So to sum it all up, the way I see it the playing field is rather balanced. The fighters have the Thunderpeaks for traveling without a mage and/or cleric and the mages can go make some minor destruction on Dregar if they have nothing else to do.

As for the crafting xp I believe that it is rather an issue of people selling at too low prices. Business is just very slow because everyone can make something if they like to, except the highest level items like mithril armor and enchantments. Another issue is that some drops are better than craftable items so in the end levels people hardly buy anything but drops because the level of them is far supiriour to anything you can ever craft. So just keep your prices up and wait for the chance deal.

[jan]

*sighs* Alright Storold , i'll make a list off every high character i see on line over the next few weeks and write down the classes and sub-classes .
So-far ( from who i have seen on-line the last few days ) apart from maybe two or three characters they all either use magic , or are able to use magic by way of UMD .

I,m not completely sure , but i think that my own char is probably the highest one with out any way of aiding himself with magic other then from items every one can use if they meet the lvl requirements .
And yes , the drops are far more magical then they were and yes , grouping up is far better then trying to run around alone .

The thunderpeaks , as i could show you in a PM exchange with Chongo , has changed so-much that you need either a group off 4 lvl 23 fighters that know how to work together or less characters that are higher in lvl and posses about every good gear that can be found .
Traveling there with Barion alone is almost impossible.

Of-course since i don't know all the areas well i cant say if there is exp to be gained for magic-users alone , but when i see that a group with three reasonably high characters have trouble killing a certain bear with out magical aid and a lone spellslinger has beaten them to it and killed the thing alone then i still get the feeling that spell-users can do much more then non-spell users.
Combine this with the fact that almost every high character has ways off using magic ( sub-classes , UMD ) and if you look at the rate they are gaining levels , then to me it shows that the balance is not as good as you claim it is .

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

FYI, I'm pretty Sure the Thunder Peaks (The Mountain Parts with Yeti and Werewolves) has never been solo-able...  The Bandits and Trollocs are with some skill, but those peaks were never solo able...

[mumbles]

Sorry to point out barion but theres a few that are very high lvl fighter , Like Kobal , fenrir , Gravas , gork , Goldwin , Boon just to name a few

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

And Shiff!  :p

EDIT: Straight Fighter WM    Not an easy life

[jan]

Sorry to point out barion but theres a few that are very high lvl fighter , Like Kobal , fenrir , Gravas , gork , Goldwin , Boon just to name a few

*grins* First read the post completely before reacting , i said most have sub-classes ( like i know Goldwin and Boon have rogue-lvls ) that allow them to use other things then the magical items every-one can use .

[jan]

FYI, I'm pretty Sure the Thunder Peaks (The Mountain Parts with Yeti and Werewolves) has never been solo-able...  The Bandits and Trollocs are with some skill, but those peaks were never solo able...

FYI : Barion solo'd the peaks and the tunnels ( and dont tell any one ....but he could still probably do the tunnels and wolves caves if he's careful )*winks grinning*

[mumbles]

Stil kobal , fenrir ,gravas gork , lilian is anouther all high lvl fighters yep they have second classes , not nesserly rougue and for instace scrolls are pretty usless  like a scrlls of GMW might last 1 mins but its only an addy weapon , so a fighter if he owns better what is the use of that scroll

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

*shrugs*  Never said I knew everything, all I know is I can't, and I'm not gonna try

[jan]

I could look them up and probably tell you what it is that aids them ( dwarvendefender stance , knockdown and sneak attacks , as for scrolls : flame blade , magic vestment holy blade come to mind ) and rogue lvls give access to items that should be class restricted ( Paladin only , priest only , and so on ) but that wasn't the point off this thread .

The point isn't The Thunderpeaks but the unbalance ( or so i think there is ) between magic using characters and non magic using characters .

In normal magical zones the ability to use magic make a huge difference .

And spell-users have summons that keep creatures occupied so they can use their full potential and stay reasonably safe .

[Pibemanden]

Of-course since i don't know all the areas well i cant say if there is exp to be gained for magic-users alone , but when i see that a group with three reasonably high characters have trouble killing a certain bear with out magical aid and a lone spellslinger has beaten them to it and killed the thing alone then i still get the feeling that spell-users can do much more then non-spell users.
Combine this with the fact that almost every high character has ways off using magic ( sub-classes , UMD ) and if you look at the rate they are gaining levels , then to me it shows that the balance is not as good as you claim it is .

All the said characters are questing so their xp doesn't come from there. Surely some can be gained, but all of these characters travel in a group.

Lin'da, Angela, Alantha, Alleina, Storold and Fenrir; Raven Trade

The now out of play, Clarissa, Rose and Kalin some of the other high levels from that timezone played in a group.

Surely Lin'da downed that bear, and Storold could do it alone too. But, it would be the only kill. Lin'da can probably take some more but really we are talking getting around 3.000 xp sure we might seem like super cool when we run around with magic because we can take almost anything as long as we don't have to take more than one or two spawns (Normal size 3-10) but I can't take one spawn of my CR. Actually I am sure any non mage can take a spawn of their CR even with the magic they get through UMD.

And yes the thunderpeaks should be so dangerous that no one can even risk running up there alone. Sorry to say but I doubt the intended to be a place where the high level fighters could run free. No area is designed soloing only reason why it can be done is because of very good gear and lots of magic. After The one spawn you are pretty bad off. Because everything you have as a mage will be drained. I can assure you that every high level place where there is magic is designed this way, I have been there and they are not solo mage friendly at all. Even some of the old creatures have been updated to make it harder for the mages.


Edit: On summons... Really You can conjure up a level 10 summon and still it will die in a round to the high end things. These will kill everything faster than you can blink. ONly way there is a fighter with decent AC and some DR

[s0ulz]

I'm fairly puzzled with the purpose of this whole thread. As I understand you're currently saying that magic users have an easier time than fighters XP wise? I assure you this is a false impression.

To be honest, right now, spellcasters are much more reliant on party based trips than fighters, since the first need a versatile party of different classes while the regular TP trip only needs a few fighters.

I also believe that Thunder Peaks was never added with the intention of it having to be soloable. Several updates have increased the danger level by a huge margin up there and good, it's not supposed to be as easy as it once was.

Listing different characters who can or can not solo the place doesn't really show anything. Some characters have better abilities that suit better to the place, not to mention overall toughness and gear. Rogue levels or multiclasses with caster levels don't guarantee success up there, heck they might make it worse, since in the long run it's all about Player intelligence and certain character traits.

I think that currently things are still balanced towards the fighters, with spellcasters having an easier time in parties. Just because a single character now has a much harder time in the Peaks should not be taken as evidence of mages having it too easy. On the contrary, it proves that the Peaks were too easy before and turned into a solo farm.

Magic has always been powerful, it's supposed to be more powerful than a man with a sword. Something would be wrong if a fighter would outshine a spellcaster. Epic spellcasters are awe inspiring in a world like Layonara.

[jan]

I'm fairly puzzled with the purpose of this whole thread. As I understand you're currently saying that magic users have an easier time than fighters XP wise?

To be honest, right now, spellcasters are much more reliant on party based trips than fighters, since the first need a versatile party of different classes while the regular TP trip only needs a few fighters.

I also believe that Thunder Peaks was never added with the intention of it having to be soloable. Several updates have increased the danger level by a huge margin up there and good, it's not supposed to be as easy as it once was.

Listing different characters who can or can not solo the place doesn't really show anything. Some characters have better abilities that suit better to the place, not to mention overall toughness and gear. Rogue levels or multiclasses with caster levels don't guarantee success up there, heck they might make it worse, since in the long run it's all about Player intelligence and certain character traits.

I think that currently things are still balanced towards the fighters, with spellcasters having an easier time in parties. Just because a single character now has a much harder time in the Peaks should not be taken as evidence of mages having it too easy. On the contrary, it proves that the Peaks were too easy before and turned into a solo farm.

Again , it's not about The Thunderpeaks .
And I'm a bit disappointed that every one seems to focus on them .
I also would like to point out this thread has two points to begin with and only one has reacted to the other point since every one seems to get all worked up over a place that has nothing to do with showing the unbalance ( again , as i see it ) between characters that can use magic and those that can not ( a bit weird to use a place were magic doesn't work as example for the difference )

[s0ulz]

Again , it's not about The Thunderpeaks .
And I'm a bit disappointed that every one seems to focus on them .
I also would like to point out this thread has two points to begin with and only one has reacted to the other point since every one seems to get all worked up over a place that has nothing to do with showing the unbalance ( again , as i see it ) between characters that can use magic and those that can not ( a bit weird to use a place were magic doesn't work as example for the difference )

The thing is that you say we focus on the Thunder Peaks too much, when you yourself use it as an example as well. Anyway, I think that the higher end spawns that have currently been added to the game are more than enough balanced and actually require more than one magicuser in a party with different focii (healing, dispells/banishment, buffs and crowd control). So parties actually need mages to be effective. On the other hand, those mages would be dogfood in 20 seconds without a good variety of melees in front of them. That's balance to me.

[Pibemanden]

It is pretty easy, everyone knows the Thunderpeaks where unbalanced at first. Thankfully this was fixed by our very good team. Some items were unbalanced as well, these have been toned down as well for the balance of the world. In V3 everything was updated to remove the unbalance casters had in the past. I would say, as things are now there is no gap between the two groups. The only reason why it might seem so is because of the class distribution of the big groups who has been traveling together forever.

[jan]

@ souls : The example i used was to show that fighters are forced to group up by the changes made : " I don't know anything about changes that have been made to force them - as is done with fighter characters in The Thunderpeaks for example - to go out in balanced groups ."

I cant help it if people take only a few words from a line and use them .

@ Pibemanden : " Surely Lin'da downed that bear, and Storold could do it alone too. "

Could you go through that cave WITH-OUT using your magic ?

" But, it would be the only kill. Lin'da can probably take some more but really we are talking getting around 3.000 xp sure we might seem like super cool when we run around with magic because we can take almost anything as long as we don't have to take more than one or two spawns (Normal size 3-10) but I can't take one spawn of my CR. Actually I am sure any non mage can take a spawn of their CR even with the magic they get through UMD. "

Doesnt that in part prove my point ?

Any body any comments on the first point ?( crafting )

[Blackguy]

Let me just ask what are you trying to say. you say that fighters are FORCED to group up to survive in the TD now? And you would much rather have a place to get 3000xp now and then, so you can solo it, instead of grouping up with others?

So you want to be able to solo stuff alone, to get say 2000xp perhaps from ONE spawn, and then you need to rest 25min, like mages do? Does that sound fair to you?

I just want to know if thats what you want.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'm kinda confused, really...  As much as we would all love to be able to travel the realms as unstoppable machines of destruction, ummm...  where's the fun in that?  And if your over level 20, does the XP really matter?  I mean should it ever?  I really like RPing, and sure XP tends to lead to more RP possibilities cause you can go more places and do more things, but if I had to choose (and have with some of my PCs) I always prefer some good RP to a horde of XP, unless the two come hand in hand

[s0ulz]

@ souls : The example i used was to show that fighters are forced to group up by the changes made : " I don't know anything about changes that have been made to force them - as is done with fighter characters in The Thunderpeaks for example - to go out in balanced groups ."

I cant help it if people take only a few words from a line and use them .

@ Pibemanden : " Surely Lin'da downed that bear, and Storold could do it alone too. "

Could you go through that cave WITH-OUT using your magic ?

" But, it would be the only kill. Lin'da can probably take some more but really we are talking getting around 3.000 xp sure we might seem like super cool when we run around with magic because we can take almost anything as long as we don't have to take more than one or two spawns (Normal size 3-10) but I can't take one spawn of my CR. Actually I am sure any non mage can take a spawn of their CR even with the magic they get through UMD. "

Doesnt that in part prove my point ?

Any body any comments on the first point ?( crafting )

In regard to your first point. If I understood correctly you suggest we keep crafting experience apart from traveling/quest experience, so lower lever characters could not use that experience to level?

While it can be argued that a character should not gain character levels via that experience, I doubt it has a serious effect on leveling (it's only several thousands vs. millions) nor would it stop people from leveling, since most CNR has to be fought for in the first place. Best way to deal with this overflow of crafting is to remain steadfast on the pricing and disallow the undermining of other sellers. Layonara's economy can't handle that.