The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: drakogear on January 04, 2013, 10:07:22 pm
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Ok so my very first attempt to make a custom PRC.
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Haven't really managed to test it... mainly cause... I don't know how. :( Might have done some things wrong but the only guides to making custom PRCs that I could find were either incomplete guides... or really confusing ones.
In any case, ever since I learned of Layos Spell Sword class I've been thinking... it's name and what it requires and has don't quite seem to go together... at least by what I would think a Spell Sword is. That being a magical swordsman with little to no armor... save for maybe magic armor from spells. Layos Spell Sword seems more like a battle mage, a heavily armored spellcaster.
Recently I found out my computer can handle NWN 2 and there I found (among many other new classes) the Eldritch Knight... of which my PRC is kinda modeled from.
Req: BAB 5
Martial weapon
Combat Casting
SF: Concentration
Dodge
Mobility
Discipline 5
Spell craft 10
Lore 10
concentration 10
Arcane spell level 4
HD: 6
BAB: Main
Class Skills: (2+INT) All Wiz/Sorc skills plus
Discipline, Parry (As they learn to fight in melee combat) and Tumble (lack of armor they learn to be more graceful in battle)
and
Arcane Spell level every level as though leveling in caster class.
no new spells per level though. Wiz can scribe new spells for new slots. Sorc and Bard as always... out of luck... do wish it could work the same as in NWN2 where Spellcasting PRCs do gain new spells but I guess not.
Would take off gaining a spell level at first level like NWN2s Eldritch knight but don't think you can.
Anyways, wanted to try and make this class cause well... was wanting to play a sword swinging mage with little to no armor... er... physical armor that is. Could perhaps add the imbue weapon though not sure if that would be to powerful or not.
A couple things to note... didn't make any custom TLKs for it... a bit to confusing... and the files are in txt rather then 2da... couldn't figure out how to make or convert to 2da.
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The Spellsword as implemented in Layonara is based upon the D&D 3e Spellsword prestige class, the focus of which was a hybrid armored warrior and spellcaster.
Honestly, if you're looking for an unarmored warrior, pure Wizard (or if you want some giggles, throw Duelist in there) does it best.
Full spellcasting progression beats out any combat-related class feature.
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I know of a sword-wielding spell caster who wouldn't dream of wearing armor. *shudder* It can be done, and has.
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guess why eldritch knight doesn't have any class features... nor this class. :p
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Sure could go the wiz duelist but that would make your spells fewer and weaker and would be some what restricted to rapiers or other one handed piercing weapons.
Also, I've had this character from a story I've been writing who casts spells, wear no armor (unless you count a leather trench coat as light leather armor) and wields a large great sword. (clearly the opposite of a rapier)
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guess why eldritch knight doesn't have any class features... nor this class. :p
So basically, you're giving a high BAB progression and better skill points to what is otherwise a full casting class, with incredibly low entry requirements? Sure, sign me up.
While you're at it, change my age and race to Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold.
Sure could go the wiz duelist but that would make your spells fewer and weaker and would be some what restricted to rapiers or other one handed piercing weapons.
Also, I've had this character from a story I've been writing who casts spells, wear no armor (unless you count a leather trench coat as light leather armor) and wields a large great sword. (clearly the opposite of a rapier)
Pure Wizard does this quite well... But you're pointing out a character in a story you're writing. I could write a story about a clever rogue who gets Death Attack, but is totally a good guy, and did I mention he's also a powerful wizard who gets all the ladies?
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So basically, you're giving a high BAB progression and better skill points to what is otherwise a full casting class, with incredibly low entry requirements? Sure, sign me up.
Hey, don't blame me... it was NWN2 with there Eldritch knight that gave me the idea. Was just trying to get it ported to original NWN... and if you look. I put more Requirments then what NWN2 has... maybe not much more but still... all they Require was martial weapon... Also unlike NWN2 the Spell Blade does not gain new spells from leveling. Wiz have to find and scribe and sorc and bard have to level in there base class.
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Ok so made a minor change... adding 5 ranks of discipline and upping the other skill Req to 10. Spell level of 4 and bab of 5... essentially have to reach level 7 wiz or 8 sorc now... high enough or need more?
Also reduced skill points to 2+INT... gave it 4+INT earlier to sorta compensate for the added class skills.
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You pretty much can't combine full BAB and full casting progression, regardless of the requirements. I understand what you're trying to do, but you're better off taking a 5 level Fighter dip if you REALLY want to augment your combat abilities...
Though, frankly, losing those 5 levels of Wizard hurts you much more than the Fighter levels could possibly gain.
3/4 BAB and -1 Spellcasting progression, with entry requirements that favor multiclassing with a melee class for entry by level 8, or without by level 12, are about right. At that point, it's a matter of additional class features as to whether the class gets 2 or 4 skill points per level.
So... +6 BAB, 2nd level spells, Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spellcraft and Discipline both 5 ranks.
If you get good Will saves, and no other class features, you should see 4 skill points per level. If you add any class features (which you really should, like [lore]Imbue[/lore] and [lore]Canny Defense[/lore]), that drops to 2 per level.
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You pretty much can't combine full BAB and full casting progression, regardless of the requirements.
Why not? Bioware did just that with the Eldritch Knight :( oh well.
3/4 BAB and -1 Spellcasting progression, with entry requirements that favor multiclassing with a melee class for entry by level 8, or without by level 12, are about right. At that point, it's a matter of additional class features as to whether the class gets 2 or 4 skill points per level.
So... +6 BAB, 2nd level spells, Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spellcraft and Discipline both 5 ranks.
Mmmm... ok... maybe a reduction in spell progression... not sure about lowering BAB but maybe. Don't really like the idea of having to dable in a second base class especially with the XP penalty that would likely bring. Might add feat requirements... Perhaps Combat Caster and SF: Concentration as Req rather then 1st level bonus feats? Dodge and mobility sound good too... adds to there careful movement in a fight.
If you get good Will saves, and no other class features, you should see 4 skill points per level. If you add any class features (which you really should, like [lore]Imbue[/lore] and [lore]Canny Defense[/lore]), that drops to 2 per level.
Had the classes saves set to clerics as the guide said they have good will and fort saves. Was kinda thinking of my story character then as he's more sturdy and has greater resolve then reflexes. Not sure about adding class features... still kinda like how NWN2 had the Eldritch Knight without any. Though imbue does seem tempting.
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It's probably worth mentioning that the PRC made an Eldritch Knight PrC:
Player Resource Consortium :: Manual :: Content :: Eldritch Knight (http://www.nwnprc.com/nwn/english/content/prestige_classes/70.html)
We don't use PRC content, of course. I'm offering this as reference to their implementation.
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Wait, you mean the PRC includes imbalanced content? No way! I'd never have suspected that!
The class as presented costs one feat to enter, and gives d6 HD and full BAB and casting progression. There is no reason whatsoever NOT to enter the class (as a wizard). I remember playing briefly on another NWN server that made that class available, and, as a pure wizard, my reaction was "wait, free stuff? I'll take free stuff."
For what it's worth, though, the prestige classes that advance your casting ability are supposed to do so for spells known and spells per day - at least, that's what they were intended to do in PnP.
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Hm, you know, come to think of it, my spell blade (and the Eldritch Knight) are somewhat the opposite to the Spell Sword.
Spell Blade: Full BAB and spell progression... but is still a squishy mage (no armor... unless you wanna endure full spell failure chances)
Spell Sword: Moderate BAB and about half progression... and is a fireball flinging tank (full plate with little to no spell failure)... oh... and able to constantly re-enchant (imbue) there weapon.
In a way with the Spell Blade (Eldritch Knight) You have no armore and no imbuing powers... rather, full BAB and spell progression... though sure I guess you could say the requirements are a little low in comparison.
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Ok more changes.
Lowered HD (was 8 now 6) Changed bonus feats (Combat Casting and SF: Concentration) to requirements and added Dodge and Mobility to requirements.
Oh, and I got the files converted to 2DA. Was rather simple too. Extract a random classes 2DA files from the 2DA source archive (automatically makes a copy to wherever you extract it to.) and replace all that is in it and save then rename. Choosing save as will change it to a text... I used notepad to edit file.
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but is still a squishy mage (no armor... unless you wanna endure full spell failure chances)
That is somehow odd . since you are putting tumble as class skill on there. Which would boost that AC somehow without really much effort , Wizard mind high int, mind high skillpoints. .I am not against tumble giving AC, but to keep up the Tumble pluss all the spells that make the wizard hard to hit ( Mage armor, Shield, Shadowshield ) Not to mention all the ways of concealment. . well not that Squishy if you ask me.
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That is somehow odd . since you are putting tumble as class skill on there. Which would boost that AC somehow without really much effort , Wizard mind high int, mind high skillpoints. .I am not against tumble giving AC, but to keep up the Tumble pluss all the spells that make the wizard hard to hit ( Mage armor, Shield, Shadowshield ) Not to mention all the ways of concealment. . well not that Squishy if you ask me.
A normal mage and a Spell Sword could get all those magical defenses as well.
Ranks in Tumble may boost AC but not all that much.
tumble AC is 1 per every 5 ranks. Maxing around 40 ranks at +8 AC. Though I'm not sure if item bonuses to tumble add AC.
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I agree .. but don't see still why has to be a class skiill ( tumble ) all chars can spend tumble as cross class skills. that is all i am saying. And yes i know that the number of skill points that you are able to give to a cross class skill its not the same than a class skill
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The thing you don't seem to realize is that taking this Prestige Class as you present it, gives the character something (full BAB, more skills) for nothing (as Martial Weapon Proficiency is neatly offset by Combat Casting and Skill Focus: Concentration, to say nothing of the fact that MWP is worth getting ANYWAY).
It's "free stuff." There's no reason whatsoever for a wizard to not take this class.
And while armored AC is easier to boost, unarmored AC doesn't really have a cap. The Dex bonuses can beat out armor bonuses from Fullplate very quickly (level 8?), especially with buffs... To say nothing of Magic Vestement, Shield, Mage Armor, and sweet things like Shadow Shield, Stoneskin, Displacement, Blur, and Haste.
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My thought with having tumble as a class skill was to emphasize there skill in fighting without armor. Learning how to duck, weave, dodge, jump and well tumble about in combat.
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I'm all for a 4 skill point class with Tumble on the list in addition to the Wizard skills... But not at Full BAB and Full Casting.
3/4 BAB, and I could see -1 casting progression, with no other class features... At the requirements I outlined above.
Look at Wizard, Bard, and Ranger for a moment. Wizards get 1/2 BAB and 9 levels of casting. Bards get 3/4 and 6. Rangers get full and 4. Are you noticing something?
The original EK (as seen here: Eldritch Knight :: d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) ) is not easy to implement in a balanced way in NWN, because there's an aspect of its requirements that NWN circumvents: Proficiency in ALL Martial weapons.
In PnP, Martial Weapon Proficiency applies to a single weapon. The only way to gain proficiency in ALL Martial weapons is to take a level in a class that grants it. This forces a potential EK to give up a level of their primary casting class. 3rd level spells means that the soonest you can enter this class is as a 5 Wiz/1 Fighter, and your first EK level doesn't give you a casting level... But in NWN, you can just take 1 feat (that's worth having anyway) and meet the requirements at level 5 Wizard.
In most cases, a prestige class was all about the class features. In the case of Eldritch Knight, you give up your bonus feats as a wizard, your two free spells (which can make a big difference in PnP - and doesn't in NWN), and your familiar's progression (which, again, could really matter in PnP, and doesn't in NWN), for a good BAB and almost-full spellcasting. And even in PnP it was kinda cheap.
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The thing you don't seem to realize is that taking this Prestige Class as you present it, gives the character something (full BAB, more skills) for nothing (as Martial Weapon Proficiency is neatly offset by Combat Casting and Skill Focus: Concentration, to say nothing of the fact that MWP is worth getting ANYWAY).
I've added more feats to the requirements and with that even the wiz would have to forgo some more magical feats to get to Spell Blade just like they would have to for Spell sword... that is if they didn't (in my own opinion) cheat there way by dipping into fighter.
Funny... took them years to learn to be a mage yet only a few days to learn how to be an armor clad warrior.
Additionally, skill points have been lowered from 4 to 2 as previously stated so in order to effectively raise the new skills they would have to for go some of there others... even wizards until they get there base int high enough.
With the added feat requirements you'd have to be either a level 10 human or 12 other (human gain one additional feat at 1st) that is if they focused on getting all that is required for the class as early as possible... of which they pretty much would have to if they wanted the full BAB for about 8-10 level. from 20 on the BAB is second. Additionally a Wiz leveling in anything but Wiz loses there 5 level meta-magic bonus feat. Can still get meta-magic feats but not as bonus feats.
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You'll notice I edited my post - which took longer than I intended, thanks to a phone call - and didn't see your post until I submitted it.
With the current requirements and skill points, it's not unreasonable. Skill Focus and Combat Casting are the only real feat taxes to enter, but entry requirements are much more challenging, now. I don't see why you're requiring level 4 spells, though.
3 Fighter/5 Wizard has 3rd spells, all the feats (plus three or four more), and all the skills (plus two or three more). If you require 4th level spells, you prevent a multiclassed character from having more than 5 levels pre-epic. Is this as intended?
Edit, starting 9:03EST:
I still have trouble seeing how this isn't awesome near-free stuff for a pure wizard, though. Skill Focus and Combat Casting hurt to spend (because neither is a very good choice in NWN, unless you're Casting Defensively all the time... In which case they DON'T hurt to spend), but Dodge and Mobility aren't bad at all. MWP is great. A combat-focused Wizard would have no problem paying all of that for a Full BAB (and therefore another attack per round and +5 BAB by level 20).
Another thing to consider is that you're designing a PrC basically JUST for wizards. We've got a couple of those already. Do we really need more?
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You'll notice I edited my post - which took longer than I intended, thanks to a phone call - and didn't see your post until I submitted it.
With the current requirements and skill points, it's not unreasonable. Skill Focus and Combat Casting are the only real feat taxes to enter, but entry requirements are much more challenging, now. I don't see why you're requiring level 4 spells, though.
3 Fighter/5 Wizard has 3rd spells, all the feats (plus three or four more), and all the skills (plus two or three more). If you require 4th level spells, you prevent a multiclassed character from having more than 5 levels pre-epic. Is this as intended?
Wait... first requirements were to low... now there to high? :\\ Make up your mind people! >:/ Heh, I'm just kidding :D :p
Well... if you think SL 4 is to high then I could lower it to 3 I guess.
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More inconsistent than anything. See my note above.
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I still have trouble seeing how this isn't awesome near-free stuff for a pure wizard, though. Skill Focus and Combat Casting hurt to spend (because neither is a very good choice in NWN, unless you're Casting Defensively all the time... In which case they DON'T hurt to spend), but Dodge and Mobility aren't bad at all. MWP is great. A combat-focused Wizard would have no problem paying all of that for a Full BAB (and therefore another attack per round and +5 BAB by level 20).
Another thing to consider is that you're designing a PrC basically JUST for wizards. We've got a couple of those already. Do we really need more?
Combat casting and skill focus were the 1st level bonus feats in NWN2 EK. The intended purpose as I saw it was that they would be in defensive casting mode every time they were in battle as it prevents attacks of opportunity when casting at melee range though a concentration check is rolled every time they cast.
This class is not specifically designed for wizards... that's just been the base class we've been debating. Sorcerers and bards can be it to as they can be any arcane casting PRC (Pale Master, Spell Sword, Arcane Archer)