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Author Topic: Spell Blade  (Read 2501 times)

drakogear

Spell Blade
« on: January 04, 2013, 10:07:22 pm »
Ok so my very first attempt to make a custom PRC.

[ATTACH]18546[/ATTACH]

Haven't really managed to test it... mainly cause... I don't know how. :( Might have done some things wrong but the only guides to making custom PRCs that I could find were either incomplete guides... or really confusing ones.

In any case, ever since I learned of Layos Spell Sword class I've been thinking... it's name and what it requires and has don't quite seem to go together... at least by what I would think a Spell Sword is. That being a magical swordsman with little to no armor... save for maybe magic armor from spells. Layos Spell Sword seems more like a battle mage, a heavily armored spellcaster.

Recently I found out my computer can handle NWN 2 and there I found (among many other new classes) the Eldritch Knight... of which my PRC is kinda modeled from.

Req: BAB                     5
       Martial weapon
       Combat Casting
       SF: Concentration
       Dodge
       Mobility
       Discipline              5
       Spell craft            10
       Lore                    10
       concentration       10
       Arcane spell level   4

HD: 6

BAB: Main

Class Skills: (2+INT) All Wiz/Sorc skills plus
Discipline, Parry (As they learn to fight in melee combat) and Tumble (lack of armor they learn to be more graceful in battle)

and

Arcane Spell level every level as though leveling in caster class.

no new spells per level though. Wiz can scribe new spells for new slots. Sorc and Bard as always... out of luck... do wish it could work the same as in NWN2 where Spellcasting PRCs do gain new spells but I guess not.

Would take off gaining a spell level at first level like NWN2s Eldritch knight but don't think you can.

Anyways, wanted to try and make this class cause well... was wanting to play a sword swinging mage with little to no armor... er... physical armor that is. Could perhaps add the imbue weapon though not sure if that would be to powerful or not.

A couple things to note... didn't make any custom TLKs for it... a bit to confusing... and the files are in txt rather then 2da... couldn't figure out how to make or convert to 2da.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 11:11:07 pm »
The Spellsword as implemented in Layonara is based upon the D&D 3e Spellsword prestige class, the focus of which was a hybrid armored warrior and spellcaster.

Honestly, if you're looking for an unarmored warrior, pure Wizard (or if you want some giggles, throw Duelist in there) does it best.

Full spellcasting progression beats out any combat-related class feature.
 

Alatriel

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 11:15:54 pm »
I know of a sword-wielding spell caster who wouldn't dream of wearing armor.  *shudder*  It can be done, and has.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 11:17:09 pm »
guess why eldritch knight doesn't have any class features... nor this class. :p
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 11:26:49 pm »
Sure could go the wiz duelist but that would make your spells fewer and weaker and would be some what restricted to rapiers or other one handed piercing weapons.

Also, I've had this character from a story I've been writing who casts spells, wear no armor (unless you count a leather trench coat as light leather armor) and wields a large great sword. (clearly the opposite of a rapier)
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 11:28:04 pm »
Quote from: drakogear
guess why eldritch knight doesn't have any class features... nor this class. :p

So basically, you're giving a high BAB progression and better skill points to what is otherwise a full casting class, with incredibly low entry requirements? Sure, sign me up.

While you're at it, change my age and race to Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold.

Quote from: drakogear
Sure could go the wiz duelist but that would  make your spells fewer and weaker and would be some what restricted to  rapiers or other one handed piercing weapons.

Also, I've had this character from a story I've been writing who casts  spells, wear no armor (unless you count a leather trench coat as light  leather armor) and wields a large great sword. (clearly the opposite of a  rapier)

Pure Wizard does this quite well... But you're pointing out a character in a story you're writing. I could write a story about a clever rogue who gets Death Attack, but is totally a good guy, and did I mention he's also a powerful wizard who gets all the ladies?
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 11:41:37 pm »
Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman
So basically, you're giving a high BAB progression and better skill points to what is otherwise a full casting class, with incredibly low entry requirements? Sure, sign me up.


Hey, don't blame me... it was NWN2 with there Eldritch knight that gave me the idea. Was just trying to get it ported to original NWN... and if you look. I put more Requirments then what NWN2 has... maybe not much more but still... all they Require was martial weapon... Also unlike NWN2 the Spell Blade does not gain new spells from leveling. Wiz have to find and scribe and sorc and bard have to level in there base class.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2013, 12:03:26 am »
Ok so made a minor change... adding 5 ranks of discipline and upping the other skill Req to 10. Spell level of 4 and bab of 5... essentially have to reach level 7 wiz or 8 sorc now... high enough or need more?

Also reduced skill points to 2+INT... gave it 4+INT earlier to sorta compensate for the added class skills.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 01:39:19 am »
You pretty much can't combine full BAB and full casting progression, regardless of the requirements. I understand what you're trying to do, but you're better off taking a 5 level Fighter dip if you REALLY want to augment your combat abilities...

Though, frankly, losing those 5 levels of Wizard hurts you much more than the Fighter levels could possibly gain.

3/4 BAB and -1 Spellcasting progression, with entry requirements that favor multiclassing with a melee class for entry by level 8, or without by level 12, are about right. At that point, it's a matter of additional class features as to whether the class gets 2 or 4 skill points per level.

So... +6 BAB, 2nd level spells, Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spellcraft and Discipline both 5 ranks.

If you get good Will saves, and no other class features, you should see 4 skill points per level. If you add any class features (which you really should, like [lore]Imbue[/lore] and [lore]Canny Defense[/lore]), that drops to 2 per level.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 02:52:12 am »
Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman
You pretty much can't combine full BAB and full casting progression, regardless of the requirements.


Why not? Bioware did just that with the Eldritch Knight :( oh well.

Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman
3/4 BAB and -1 Spellcasting progression, with entry requirements that favor multiclassing with a melee class for entry by level 8, or without by level 12, are about right. At that point, it's a matter of additional class features as to whether the class gets 2 or 4 skill points per level.

So... +6 BAB, 2nd level spells, Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spellcraft and Discipline both 5 ranks.


Mmmm... ok... maybe a reduction in spell progression... not sure about lowering BAB but maybe. Don't really like the idea of having to dable in a second base class especially with the XP penalty that would likely bring. Might add feat requirements... Perhaps Combat Caster and SF: Concentration as Req rather then 1st level bonus feats? Dodge and mobility sound good too... adds to there careful movement in a fight.

Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman
If you get good Will saves, and no other class features, you should see 4 skill points per level. If you add any class features (which you really should, like [lore]Imbue[/lore] and [lore]Canny Defense[/lore]), that drops to 2 per level.


Had the classes saves set to clerics as the guide said they have good will and fort saves. Was kinda thinking of my story character then as he's more sturdy and has greater resolve then reflexes. Not sure about adding class features... still kinda like how NWN2 had the Eldritch Knight without any. Though imbue does seem tempting.
 

Dorganath

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2013, 11:27:57 am »
It's probably worth mentioning that the PRC made an Eldritch Knight PrC:

Player Resource Consortium :: Manual :: Content :: Eldritch Knight

We don't use PRC content, of course.   I'm offering this as reference to their implementation.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2013, 12:35:00 pm »
Wait, you mean the PRC includes imbalanced content? No way! I'd never have suspected that!

The class as presented costs one feat to enter, and gives d6 HD and full BAB and casting progression. There is no reason whatsoever NOT to enter the class (as a wizard). I remember playing briefly on another NWN server that made that class available, and, as a pure wizard, my reaction was "wait, free stuff? I'll take free stuff."

For what it's worth, though, the prestige classes that advance your casting ability are supposed to do so for spells known and spells per day - at least, that's what they were intended to do in PnP.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 04:52:12 pm »
Hm, you know, come to think of it, my spell blade (and the Eldritch Knight) are somewhat the opposite to the Spell Sword.

Spell Blade: Full BAB and spell progression... but is still a squishy mage (no armor... unless you wanna endure full spell failure chances)

Spell Sword: Moderate BAB and about half progression... and is a fireball flinging tank (full plate with little to no spell failure)... oh... and able to constantly re-enchant (imbue) there weapon.

In a way with the Spell Blade (Eldritch Knight) You have no armore and no imbuing powers... rather, full BAB and spell progression... though sure I guess you could say the requirements are a little low in comparison.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 05:22:10 pm »
Ok more changes.

Lowered HD (was 8 now 6) Changed bonus feats (Combat Casting and SF: Concentration) to requirements and added Dodge and Mobility to requirements.

Oh, and I got the files converted to 2DA. Was rather simple too. Extract a random classes 2DA files from the 2DA source archive (automatically makes a copy to wherever you extract it to.) and replace all that is in it and save then rename. Choosing save as will change it to a text... I used notepad to edit file.
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 07:13:03 pm »
Quote
but is still a squishy mage (no armor... unless you wanna endure full spell failure chances)


That is somehow odd . since you are putting tumble as class skill on there.  Which would boost that AC somehow without really much effort , Wizard mind high int, mind high skillpoints. .I am not against tumble giving AC, but to keep up the Tumble pluss all the spells that make the wizard hard to hit ( Mage armor, Shield, Shadowshield )  Not to mention all the ways of concealment. . well not that Squishy if you ask me.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2013, 07:54:33 pm »
Quote from: Lance Stargazer
That is somehow odd . since you are putting tumble as class skill on there.  Which would boost that AC somehow without really much effort , Wizard mind high int, mind high skillpoints. .I am not against tumble giving AC, but to keep up the Tumble pluss all the spells that make the wizard hard to hit ( Mage armor, Shield, Shadowshield )  Not to mention all the ways of concealment. . well not that Squishy if you ask me.


A normal mage and a Spell Sword could get all those magical defenses as well.

Ranks in Tumble may boost AC but not all that much.

tumble AC is 1 per every 5 ranks. Maxing around 40 ranks at +8 AC. Though I'm not sure if item bonuses to tumble add AC.
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2013, 08:11:50 pm »
I agree .. but don't see still why has to be a class skiill ( tumble ) all chars can spend tumble as cross class skills. that is all i am saying.  And yes i know that the number of skill points that you are able to give to a cross class skill its not the same than a class skill
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2013, 08:15:02 pm »
The thing you don't seem to realize is that taking this Prestige Class as you present it, gives the character something (full BAB, more skills) for nothing (as Martial Weapon Proficiency is neatly offset by Combat Casting and Skill Focus: Concentration, to say nothing of the fact that MWP is worth getting ANYWAY).

It's "free stuff." There's no reason whatsoever for a wizard to not take this class.

And while armored AC is easier to boost, unarmored AC doesn't really have a cap. The Dex bonuses can beat out armor bonuses from Fullplate very quickly (level 8?), especially with buffs... To say nothing of Magic Vestement, Shield, Mage Armor, and sweet things like Shadow Shield, Stoneskin, Displacement, Blur, and Haste.
 

drakogear

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2013, 08:20:22 pm »
My thought with having tumble as a class skill was to emphasize there skill in fighting without armor. Learning how to duck, weave, dodge, jump and well tumble about in combat.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Spell Blade
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 08:29:34 pm »
I'm all for a 4 skill point class with Tumble on the list in addition to the Wizard skills... But not at Full BAB and Full Casting.

3/4 BAB, and I could see -1 casting progression, with no other class features... At the requirements I outlined above.

Look at Wizard, Bard, and Ranger for a moment. Wizards get 1/2 BAB and 9 levels of casting. Bards get 3/4 and 6. Rangers get full and 4. Are you noticing something?

The original EK (as seen here: Eldritch Knight :: d20srd.org ) is not easy to implement in a balanced way in NWN, because there's an aspect of its requirements that NWN circumvents: Proficiency in ALL Martial weapons.

In PnP, Martial Weapon Proficiency applies to a single weapon. The only way to gain proficiency in ALL Martial weapons is to take a level in a class that grants it. This forces a potential EK to give up a level of their primary casting class. 3rd level spells means that the soonest you can enter this class is as a 5 Wiz/1 Fighter, and your first EK level doesn't give you a casting level... But in NWN, you can just take 1 feat (that's worth having anyway) and meet the requirements at level 5 Wizard.

In most cases, a prestige class was all about the class features. In the case of Eldritch Knight, you give up your bonus feats as a wizard, your two free spells (which can make a big difference in PnP - and doesn't in NWN), and your familiar's progression (which, again, could really matter in PnP, and doesn't in NWN), for a good BAB and almost-full spellcasting. And even in PnP it was kinda cheap.
 

 

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