New Language Ear Suggestion

[Interia_Discordius]

I was just thinking about this after today's roleplay session with Jser and Kinai, but I was wondering if it is possible to make a "shadow" ear and set it so after a certain set of shadowdancer levels, it's acquired, and also make it available as usual the intelligence modifier/learning in bio thing.

It's mentioned in the handbook about how shadowdancers travel in bands, and since they are all able to summon a shadow at level three, I thought it'd be nice if they all had their own way of speaking. Sort of like a harsh whisper sound, but not as hissy and harsh as the Abyssal/Infernal languages.

I don't know... Just something I'd like to see implemented. I think it'd be sort of a different section than Thieves' Cant, since this is more of a spend time with the darkness and learn how they work thing more than just a usual on the streets rogue.

Plus, I personally just want to see language ears be gained in something more than just an intelligence modifier... My two cents

[darkstorme]

I'd disagree with this, for a few reasons.

Firstly, it's another language ear to worry about.  Granting these is a headache anyway, and you KNOW that there will be those who are not Shadowdancers who will be after it.

Second, shadows have no language.  To quote from the d20SRD:

A shadow is 5 to 6 feet tall and is weightless. Shadows cannot speak intelligibly.

They're incorporeal undead.  They hunger for the living.  The Plane of Shadow is an unpleasant place; Shadowdancers simply know how to navigate it while treading on a hairsbreadth of safety.

Third, while the NWN handbook states that Shadowdancers travel in troupes, I've never once seen a Shadowdancer troupe (largely because there are so few of them on the server.)  If they had a druid-like hierarchy, or actually traveled in groups, I could see the justification for a private, Thieves' Cant-style language, but since a number of the Shadowdancers on the server are largely loners, I can't see any justification for an automatic granting of such an ear.  Association with Shadows and their plane is, I think, covered by point #2, above.

I firmly believe that Shadowdancers, when they encounter one another, would be able to understand things that others around them would not.  I do not, however, believe this would extend to any sort of formalized language.

[Pankoki]

There is already a Shadow Language in Layo actually, however it is not the type of language stated above. It is spoken by a certain group of people that are hidden in Layo that were a major part of the last campaign plot. About 20-30 people in the server speak it that were a part of that long quest series and these are the only people that have been taught the language.

At the ending of that quest Leanthar clearly stated that no one else will be learning that language, so I highly doubt this will ever be made into a language ear for shadowdancers.


Good suggestion, however, this is just one of the cases were Layo diverges from DnD (particularly on the whole Shadows are Undead bit, which in Layo they are not).

[Interia_Discordius]

Heh, alright. Either way, I just think it'd be interesting for there to be a sort of separate set of an ear from Thieves' Cant that's similar yet different for the shadowdancers.

And, hmm, if you see a troupe, it could happen? **grins** Where can I sign up to start something like that?

[Interia_Discordius]

...
Third, while the NWN handbook states that Shadowdancers travel in troupes, I've never once seen a Shadowdancer troupe (largely because there are so few of them on the server.)  If they had a druid-like hierarchy, or actually traveled in groups, I could see the justification for a private, Thieves' Cant-style language, but since a number of the Shadowdancers on the server are largely loners, I can't see any justification for an automatic granting of such an ear.
...

Okay, now that the original sleepy thought is aside... A few more questions. If it is possible to make a troupe of shadowdancers (and also, how would you like that to have gone about... would that go through guilds, rumor has it, taverns, or just find shadowdancers and group them?), would there be a chance for reconsideration then? I think from the understanding of things shadowdancers have, and although it isn't necessarily a formalized language, can't one be made out of said emotions that later evolve into a true language?

I don't think it should be named Shadowdancer's Ear, for example, it terms of the shadows, but more like Thieves' Cant where the rogue isn't a thief, it's just a title. Just a way to name it... Couldn't really think of a good way to explain that, per se.

Maybe that's a bit more of an organized thought. I don't know. Lack of sleep is horrid. Thanks for talking with me about this, either way.

And this may turn into a me asking for Kinai to attempt creating a pack of shadowdancers eventually, whether on this particular thread or to a pointed forum section

[darkstorme]

Well, the thing is, a number of Rogues ought not to know Thieves' Cant.  It's basically an underworld sign language, so a person can be saying one thing and conveying quite another.  If a Rogue was never in a position to learn it (say, a scout who travels with a military group), by rights, s/he should not know it, and would not use it in-game.  Thieves' Cant is not a universal Rogue language, it's just what the title suggests - a method for unsavoury characters to convey more than they speak.

And if you're creating a pack of Shadowdancers, you might as well code up your own system to use in an adjacent window.  All the languages (except Animal Ear) are just that - cryptograms.  Every letter or letter pair is replaced with a different set, and presto, we have Elven.  If you wanted a truly exclusive language, that'd be the way to go.  Or, better still, a language similar to Thieves' Cant, that actually has to be learned:

Example -
Three people are having a conversation.  Shadowdancer A, Shadowdancer B, and Fighter C.

A: So, what did you say you saw?
C: I saw the beholders leaving the Cave of the Eye!  I think they're gone!
B: What do you think, A?  *tapping her fingers on her left elbow, idly*
(A's player knows that left elbow indicates falsehood, while tapping indicates conversation subject, so B has just conveyed to A that she thinks that C's lying.)

The beauty of something like this is that a) it's truly exclusive, and b) You can make it unobtrusive, unlike Thieves' Cant, which is ridiculously obvious even without the "X is now using Ear for Thieves' Cant".  If you spend enough time codifying the "language", an entire secondary conversation can occur that a third party is not even aware of. *grins*

Edit:  Oh, and Pankoki - I can't find anything on Shadows in either LORE or the Handbook - what's the official Layo stance on them, and can it be included somewhere?  A Shadowdancer's summoned shadow (in D&D) was always the same alignment as its summoner, but it was also an incorporeal undead.  What's the word in our fair land?

[Pankoki]

In Layo, Shadows are actually a unique race of people, or type of people. Usually something bad happened to become a Shadow and it is definitely a gray line between living and death, however they are not Undead.

More detail on how this works will be published in the new Planes structure whenever that gets released but for the purposes of this discussion they can be seen as people behind a veil, almost ethereal I suppose if one were to frame things in DnD terms.

That's not saying in any forms that they can't be evil, far from it, it is a troubling condition and the grand majority of them are somewhat wanting to regain their prior existence. However there's a few out there who are actually kinda nice.

A good example of this would be one of the major plot npcs that lives in the Tower of Darkness near Krandor, Shifter.

[hawklen]

Example -
Three people are having a conversation.  Shadowdancer A, Shadowdancer B, and Fighter C.

A: So, what did you say you saw?
C: I saw the beholders leaving the Cave of the Eye!  I think they're gone!
B: What do you think, A?  *tapping her fingers on her left elbow, idly*
(A's player knows that left elbow indicates falsehood, while tapping indicates conversation subject, so B has just conveyed to A that she thinks that C's lying.)

The beauty of something like this is that a) it's truly exclusive, and b) You can make it unobtrusive, unlike Thieves' Cant, which is ridiculously obvious even without the "X is now using Ear for Thieves' Cant".  If you spend enough time codifying the "language", an entire secondary conversation can occur that a third party is not even aware of. *grins*

*grins* That sounds pretty fun, while you're at it, mind as well do drow finger language *winks*

[Dorganath]

It's important to remember also that Thieves Cant is not a conversational language...at least not in the sense that it can convey long, complex thoughts.

It's intended for things like "Easy mark at the bar" or "That one is the police" or similar things.

[Falonthas]

so for layo shadows are more like shades?

[J-ser]

Shades in the Greek scense? From what was said above, thats what I would guess.

Anyhow, I don't think we (shadow dancers) would need a new ear, but just develop our own without an official ear. That way, individual troops would have indidvidual codes, along with the reasons above.

[darkstorme]

It's important to remember also that Thieves Cant is not a conversational language...at least not in the sense that it can convey long, complex thoughts.

It's intended for things like "Easy mark at the bar" or "That one is the police" or similar things.

This is why I suggested the emote language.  Significance is given to things like particular body part and hand motion, rather than a word-for-word translation.  Animal language and Thieves' Cant are too often abused by people carrying on full-length in-depth conversations.  With an emotes language, translated by the player rather than the game, it could only be conceptual.

Plus, it'd be really neat.

[Interia_Discordius]

Sounds nice Guess I'll be working on specific emotes to mean certain things, then. Thanks again for all your help.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

A question about shadows: Does this mean that ANY of the Shadows are not undead, i.e. the Shadon summons?

[Acacea]

Why would Shadon summon undead, right? Or Deliar, for that matter?

It's true that true shadows are not the best choice of summons for either of them anyway, but undead even less so.

[EdTheKet]

A question about shadows: Does this mean that ANY of the Shadows are not undead, i.e. the Shadon summons?

Yes, it'll be in the new planes document. How that's going to work NWN mechanics wise is a different story