Of Inns, taverns and alignments

[Desicardo]

With the new starting starting locations divided along aligment and racial lines, and Hempstead being the start for 'good' aligned characters, perhaps there should be some consideration to moving the temple of shadon and scamps mug to Vehl and putting a good aligned temple or even just a neutral Inn in it's place.  There needs to be a point of congregation like the Wild surge for disseminating information and posting things where i/g characters would be able to read them.  Since Hlint is not longer the center of the adventurers universe, a Forum board and an Inn would be greatly appreciated that is more neutral in nature as many Lawful type characters would be out of character to enter Scamps being a Shadonite temple.  Not high priority but in the spirit of R/P of alingment and information travel such a thing would be of great convenience.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, I don't think Toranites or Rofireinites (clergy, anyhow) CAN enter the Scamp's Mug, as it is a temple to Shadon. Not without falling from Grace, anyhow...

Anyhow, while I see where you're coming from, I have to say that taking the Scamp out of Hemp would be like taking the temple of Branderback out of Prantz... It's a part of the place, and honestly the Scamp's just a good, fun-loving establishment whose sole purpose is to get wasted and have fun.

[Skywatcher]

Maybe an even trade would be in order.  I mean the Temple of Rofirein in Fort Vehl has the same issue.  Unless you figure that the churches are trying to evangelize among people who don't believe.  As to whether or not one could enter I have always treated the section of the Scamp's Mug that has the enchanting pool as the temple.  Just like the shops and bank are not actually the temple of Deliar even though that's what the sign on the outside says.  I don't know how others have treated it but a pub is not a temple and a bank is not a temple as far as I am concered.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Considering what those deities are the deities of, I think you need to rethink that.

[Gulnyr]

Following that reasoning, every forest is a temple of Katia, every craft hall is a temple of Dorand, every bank is a temple of Deliar, every courthouse is a temple of Rofirein, every kitchen or garden is a temple of Prunilla...  That's silly.  Paladins of Toran could never go anywhere.  A temple is whatever the temple proper is, which means the bank beside the temple of Deliar isn't actually part of the temple.  

It does get confusing with the Shadonites in the Scamp's Mug, though, since they are just there in the main room of the tavern.  If I were playing a Toranite Paladin, I think I'd find another kitchen to use just in case.  Inconvenient maybe, but I'd feel better about my RP.

[Eight-Bit]

Gulnyr - 3/3/2007 12:59 PM Following that reasoning, every forest is a temple of Katia, every craft hall is a temple of Dorand, every bank is a temple of Deliar, every courthouse is a temple of Rofirein, every kitchen or garden is a temple of Prunilla... That's silly. Paladins of Toran could never go anywhere. A temple is whatever the temple proper is, which means the bank beside the temple of Deliar isn't actually part of the temple. It does get confusing with the Shadonites in the Scamp's Mug, though, since they are just there in the main room of the tavern. If I were playing a Toranite Paladin, I think I'd find another kitchen to use just in case. Inconvenient maybe, but I'd feel better about my RP.

 I think it should be replaced with a nice place to be, where people can gather and RP, rather than a half-temple half-pub. Getting people used to using it will be difficult, but I think that having an Inn and Pub in each town would be great centers for RP.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Gulnyr - 3/3/2007  12:59 PM

Following that reasoning, every forest is a temple of Katia, every craft hall is a temple of Dorand, every bank is a temple of Deliar, every courthouse is a temple of Rofirein, every kitchen or garden is a temple of Prunilla...  That's silly.  Paladins of Toran could never go anywhere.  A temple is whatever the temple proper is, which means the bank beside the temple of Deliar isn't actually part of the temple.  

It does get confusing with the Shadonites in the Scamp's Mug, though, since they are just there in the main room of the tavern.  If I were playing a Toranite Paladin, I think I'd find another kitchen to use just in case.  Inconvenient maybe, but I'd feel better about my RP.

Not every forest, craft hall, bank, courthouse, kitchen, or garden has clergy in it.

Though it's easily arguable that every forest, etc. is a fine place of worship... If not exactly a temple.

The Temple of Deliar, however, is that building. The flags on top are a bit of a giveaway. The Scamp's Mug... Isn't Shadon the Irrepressible Scamp? Seems to me to be a pretty blatant reference, there.

The Temple to Lucinda in Blackford castle, on the other hand, I would say would be just that section of the castle, considering that it's not the whole castle that's covered in Lucindite symbols and colours, as the temple of Deliar in Hemp is.

[Skywatcher]

This sounds like a good issue to get the team to comment on.  If the expectation is that the whole building be considered a temple then I would suggest that the shops and bank be replicated somewhere else so all players can have access.  It doesn't make sense that a paladin has to leave the "good" town to go do business because the business district of the "good" town belongs to a single deity.   For that matter other characters following deities that are unfriendly with Deliar might also want to avoid that area for RP reasons.  Anyway I want to treat these places as the GMs are expecting them to be treated so please if a couple could chime in it would be appreciated.  Thank you.

[Gulnyr]

I'm sure we could have a ridiculously deep philosophical discussion of this, but I'm not really up for that right now.  It might even be that I can understand and even agree with some or all of what you are saying, but those concepts and opinions fall to a more important point:

Port Hempstead is the starting location for a big hunk of the characters, and all the usual services should be available without having certain characters left out.  The bank and vendors should be available, the kitchen should be available, the advanced craft hall with its big statue of Dorand (rather churchy, what with the hymn of Dorand playing) should be available, and the alchemy and scribing stations should be available (there's a whole lot of Lucinda in there).  All of these things should be available even to a Paladin of Toran, so places should not be classified as temples unless they are absolutely and unquestioningly temples.  Yes, the Scamp's Mug is a weird one.

Maybe there will be more changes that alter the way these areas are set up, and maybe some of them have been changed; I haven't seen them all since the update.  That would be great for eliminating any grey areas and confusion.  For now, it's probably better to consider some areas that adjoin temples separate from those temples.  Higher level characters can find other places to handle their business, but the starting area should have all services open and available for new characters (and new players, too).

Edit:  Or I can take a long time typing and Skywatcher can say it first.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I agree that the starting town should have all the same options that Hlint did... That is, a totally nondenominational crafting center for all crafts.

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

Well as I was responsible for this mess as I built those interiors back in version two I should probably explain. Keep in mind these places were developed during Version Two to add some flavor to otherwise very generic and boring areas. Not to mention to give some relevance to that Deitys on Layonara matter, they have non adventurer followers. Some of them are quite, powerful indeed. Oh and as a side note everything bellow was just me justifying what I was doing back then, as I’ve never been a DM I can’t honestly say those back stories are accurate.

The Temple of Shadon – Initially the temple of Shadon was just a generic temple.
The Port Hampshire Inn – A copy paste of Hlint’s Almost-Never-Used Tavern not even NPC name changes.

From the Version Two Handbook Page 213: Wherever a group that follows Shadon actually manages to organize themselves (which rarely happens), they normally take over the local bars and festivities. Organization is rarely more then a long word, and Shadon’s followers encourage everyone around them to forget propriety, morality, or inhibitions and enjoy themselves.

No where else on Layonara was this actually represented. Thus I developed the Scamp’s Mug to represent it. The back-story was something as follows, The Scamp’s Mug came into being shortly after the War with Bloodstone began. Not as any great effort to stop him, in truth the owner couldn’t of cared less. A well to due Shadonite bought a local pub at an ideal location on the docks and promptly began renovations. Before a seedy dive in which what they watered down your grog with was you hoped water to a moderately different seedy dive in which the same hope applied. At first business was great, it was a new place to get drunk and forget that tomorrow you would have a hangover. Success is often attributed less to innovation but more to doing a common thing, uncommonly well. The Shadonite that owned the bar did just that, opening a small over the counter supply of ‘Cure Alls’ which were nine parts strong liquor one part drunk blessing. This seemed to do the trick, people found that the hangover just was not as bad after one of those and soon the place prospered. But the Shadonite was and is by nature a greedy man, he expanded his enterprises reveling in the fun he had and the wealth he acquired. A second series of renovations made the seedy tavern a place that was moderately respectable without losing its charm for the primary individuals to frequent it, sailors. Upon acquiring an actual priest of the Scamp the business thrived even further as the Mystic Hangover Cure’s which they sold actually did the trick and sailors know a good deal when they saw it. Over time business continued and continues to thrive attracting anyone whom wants to let their hair down for a night then quietly walk home only smelling not acting of hard liquor and revelry. The place is and has remained a tavern even if temple supplies has expanded slightly over the years, the closest thing to a prayer is ‘Shadon make the hurting stop’ when someone forgets to pay up their tab.
Just something like that, it made sense to me that sooner or later a Shadonite would open a bar and then start selling some blessed items to make more money.

The Advanced Craft Hall –
Once again this was just a case of your everyday humdrum craft hall. Why is it called advanced? What makes it so special? With the craft halls recently burned to the ground and then later rebuilt I thought I’d so something a little special. The Dorandites struck me as the sort that would probably build expert centers of craftsmanship the world over. They are the best so they would build the best.

During the rebuilding after the fires in Hampshire consumed the halls of crafting and creation, the Dorandite’s played a key roll in rebuilding the new fortified structures. Nearing the completion of the hall of master craftsmen the Dorandites brought in a great stone statue and placed it in the center of the building as a tribute to Dorand. As in their own minds that fashioning items of such power was indeed a tribute to Dorand and his perfection. To this day as in most master crafts halls the majority of its occupants are Dorandites singing his praises and looking up fondly at his statue. When asked if the hall had been converted into an impromptu temple of Dorand a master smith looked up from his forge and said, “When we build we are in prayer.” This inconclusive answer seems to fit well with the Dorandite Dogma and beliefs. Making all places of creation a temple on his domain, while also leaving them not officially any type of actual temple.

The Temple of Deliar – Page 185-186 Deliar
The Merchant House – Generic
The Bank – As Before.
So I thought to myself, instead of having three separate buildings why not one of these massive, ornate temples of Deliar in a major city happen to double if not triple for a place of merchants? Initially it was going to be a district all unto itself, however there were module size constraints and other issues. Ultimately I substituted for just a large building and three separate sections to it. In truth the building would be massive and sprawling, parts of it open to the air and merchants, money lenders, the bank and others would be scattered throughout.

The role-play behind this is an economics lesson. As I don’t think you want a long lecture on the principles of economics and sound business I’ll skip that and get to the important part. This subject has actually been brought up before, it was when the areas were first released, to sum it up: Neither the Bank or the Merchants are part of the temple segment and it is fine for a cleric or paladin to enter. This was said by L himself if I recall the post correctly but it is up to you to find out where in the forums it resides.

Short RP Explanation for the sake of it – The Halflings of Deliar founded their grand temple in Hempstead under the principles they always used in dealings with large cities they intended to hold sway within. They consolidated their goods and organized the imports and exports they made from the cities, drafting in all the major merchant powers until they were the largest mercantile faction in the city. Soon the only place to acquire fine goods or low prices was near their grand temple from those ambitious clever Halflings and later their descendents. To this day the temple continues attempting to expand in an attempt to gain a total monopoly over legal trade in the region, having opened a branch of the Layonara World Bank.

Hall of the Weave
This is basically the Dorand thing just using Lucindites. They were the most logical candidates to express interest in rebuilding the structure and therefore it is themed after what they find pleasing. Given you could probably find a lot of them in any enchanting location in the world.

End the absurd gibberish on my part. Anyway that is the explanation of why things are as they are now, at least from my point. It was designed to give the deities a bit more of a spotlight in the every day life. Tavern’s are not the most lawful locations, merchants have since money began and will till money ends try and get a leg up on their competition. Like minds will gravitate to places they like most, etcetera.

I imagine that as V3 progresses those places will disappear and be replaced by very vanilla areas as not to leave anyone out so worry not. I really shouldn’t write posts like this when I’m not feeling well enough to be one hundred percent polite. I just felt you might deserve a reason why things are as they are.

[Skywatcher]

That's a great explanation of the background and pretty much solves the problem.  The only suggestion I would make is in the flag that sits outside of the shop/bank/temple.  It just says Temple of Deliar leading one to believe that the whole structure might be the temple.  Of course once you enter its pretty clear where the temple is but it might make things clearer if the sign mentioned all three sections seperately.  The map pin could also be ajusted and thos would help new players to find the shops and bank faster.  Thanks for the background Ozy.

[Gulnyr]

What was impolite about that?  *shrug*

I actually like the way things in Port Hampshire were set up, and I wouldn't normally argue for making things more clearly separate.  I'm just not sure it's really fair to new characters or, more importantly, to new players that the services in the start areas aren't obviously open to all.

I wouldn't mind seeing more mixing of things elsewhere, but watching the pool at the Temple of Ilsare in Hlint makes me think it wouldn't matter.

[gilshem ironstone]

Skywatcher - 3/3/2007  10:35 PM

That's a great explanation of the background and pretty much solves the problem.  The only suggestion I would make is in the flag that sits outside of the shop/bank/temple.  It just says Temple of Deliar leading one to believe that the whole structure might be the temple.  Of course once you enter its pretty clear where the temple is but it might make things clearer if the sign mentioned all three sections seperately.  The map pin could also be ajusted and thos would help new players to find the shops and bank faster.  Thanks for the background Ozy.

Even that is not much of a problem when you consider that the building is much bigger than represented IG.  There very well could be multiple entrances.