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Author Topic: UMD for all! (cross-class)  (Read 982 times)

drakogear

UMD for all! (cross-class)
« on: January 07, 2013, 08:10:59 pm »
So been fiddling around with the 2DAs from the 2DAsource archive and had this rather interesting idea. Remembering how in NWN2 and DDO they had UMD available for all classes as a cross-class skill (rogues and bards still have it as a class skill).

So, taking out the CLS_Skill_****.2DA files for all the base classes and the Skills.2DA and making a few small changes. (In Skills.2DA under collum AllClassesCanUse, change UseMagicDevice line from 0=no to 1=yes then adding UseMagicDevice to line 25/26 (depending on class) in each classes CLS_SKILL_****.2DA file and a 0 for class skill) Now all base classes and put points into UMD and use wands and scrolls. YAY! :D

And yes I tested it and it works. YAY! :D

And as an added note... skill is available at creation too. YAY! :D
 

Xaltotun

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 03:58:20 am »
Congrats on doing the work to prove that this can be done, however, my question would be, why have items that are limited by class/alignment etc. if everyone can take UMD points and use them? If you want to go down that route, why not just remove the restrictions from the items?

Only my thoughts on a first-pass of the post.
 

drakogear

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 04:15:32 am »
Well, first off the thought came to me when I played NWN2 and DDO. Thinking it kinda interesting that Bioware/D&D made the skill a cross-class for all (save for Rogue and bard who still have it as a class skill)

Second, as a cross-class the skill would max around 20. Allowing at best low to mid range restricted items to be used.

I've always liked UMD myself mostly cause it allows the use of scrolls and wands. With the cross-class limit I'm thinking about spell levels 0-6... at best?
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 12:13:50 pm »
As I know by experience the use of UMD for scrolls have been modified a bit for Layo ( that or my char sucks at reading scrolls heh ). Since i got very high DC's on even the lowest scrolls.

Also I do agree that UMD is one of the key advantages that rogues have, to remove that advantage of them would be like allowing "everyone" to specialize in a weapon, it would make those classes lose what is truly an advantage for them, and make it way less common.  I must admit that i'd love to use them on my chars too, just feel that still it would be unfair for those people who plays rogues.

Just my 2 cents.
 

wild_down_under

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 01:18:52 pm »
Considering if it is not a class skill it will take 2 skill points for 1 trade off. And it cannot be as high as a class skill. Furthermore, majority of the characters do not have left over skill points to invest 2 for 1 tradeoff.

Just my 2 trues.......

:)
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 02:01:08 pm »
I know.  And yet Even being a 2 trade off skill it is indeed something really useful, again Its like adding specialization for everyone. with lets say adding one more feat requeriment if not a fighter (  making an efective use of 2 feats ).

The point here is that it will be used cause the advantages over powers de disadvantages, its a way to use skill points to overcome restrictions that your own class has .. I take 2 of those.  

I am going to take something else for example.  

Perform, I've always rp that my paladin sings and have musical training, I'd love to have perform as a cross class, and I've put Cross class skills on it just for the sake of rp, it will grant you no mechanical advantage ( in way diferent way than UMD That gives some advantages ) , and still its restricted for bards ( and i think duelists ).

UMD is one of the key advantages of the roguish class, since rogues advantage relies on the skills they have, not their fighting progress or their spell casting ability but the skill versatility they have. Why for me at least make sense that It remains on the realms of this characters.

I again said. I am not saying its a bad idea, I admit I'd put skill points on UMD if i had the chance too.  Just think it would be unfair for the rogue / bard players.
 

Aphel

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 03:05:21 pm »
There are three different things one should think about here, in my opinion. Firstly, the rules behind NWN which are, as far as I know, of the 3rd version of D&D. NWN2 had the 3.5 core rules behind them. Again, as far as I know.
Secondly, there's an issue with doctoring about in the skills etc too much. It takes a lot of balancing time, soaks up a lot of precious development time which otherwise could be used for fixing bugs (depending on design and development philosophy, a well maintained, spartanic system is better than a complex, plethora-feature system).

The most important thing however is that Layonara is not D&D in any way, shape, or form. It just currently uses the NWN (and thus, 3.0 D&D) ruleset and mechanics in its current incarnation, with all its bugs (Features! Features! Well, for powergamers at least) and features. It's not nowhere near perfect, but with the toolset it was a sufficiently good choice at start of development. Since it's well within it's deployment cycle now, lots of bugs/inconsistancies have surfaced from what I know, and have been addressed. Not all which might could have been done with the toolset to create a Layonara-esque game has been done, but most of it.
Which means, if there was a point to give every class UMD or other skills, it would be quite possible that it already was the case.

Just my 10bits, no need to take it seriously.
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 04:29:50 pm »
For what its worth . I am sorry if turned this into a discussion thread, this is not one of such but an idea to be thought by the development team, I think that the contrubutions have been good to show the points on and versus on the idea, but maybe would be a good idea to move the discussion somewhere and leave this thread as was intended, for consideration on the development team.  

This is intneded to no one, just trying to put the thread back on it intended path.
 

Dorganath

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 05:33:03 pm »
Quote from: Aphel
... the rules behind NWN which are, as far as I know, of the 3rd version of D&D. NWN2 had the 3.5 core rules behind them.

Correct. As such, it's a tricky thing to project things from NWN2 or DDO into NWN.
 

drakogear

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 05:35:02 pm »
Think your forgetting something, Rogues and Bard have a lot more skills and abilities then just UMD. Rogues are the only base class that can sneak attack and pick locks and the only class that can detect and disarm traps with a DC of 20+ and Bards have there unique Bardic Knowledge (only shared with Agent of the Realm), are the only class who plays music (mechanically) and has unique spells no other caster has.

In fact often thought of making a Bardic Sorcerer simply cause the Bard has spells the Sorcerer does not... and they both have the same spell casting attribute. (CHA)

In addition they both have access to many unique feats like the Bards Lingering Song, Curse Song, etc and the Rogues Slippery Mind, Opportunist, Skill Mastery, ect.

So allowing all other classes UMD as cross-class shouldn't be to unbalancing (if at all) should it?
 

drakogear

Re: UMD for all! (cross-class)
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 05:40:03 pm »
A list of the Item value and class/race/alignment DCs from base NWN.

Use magic device - NWNWiki, the Neverwinter Nights Wiki - your guide to the game of NWN

If these values have been raised in Layo  then that would make the skill more difficult as a cross-class and Roues and Bard would still have the greater advantage with it being there class skill.

Though as it shows, as a cross-class UMD users won't be able to use Class items with item values over 600,000, Race items over 300,000 or alignment items over 100,000

Rogues and bards on the other hand with it as a class skill can use Items to a max value of 1,800,000 Class, 1,400,000 Race and 1,000,000 Alignment.