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Author Topic: Weapon specialization for Weapon master  (Read 1106 times)

Hellblazer

Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« on: July 22, 2009, 01:39:33 am »
I was thinking for a while now, (ever since I thought about creating a char that would go weapon master, hence Sil'via before i changed my mind down the road through rp) that with all the rp and training that goes into mastering a certain weapon, for it to become as part of yourself, it would seem more than logical that the weapon master would get weapon specialization at level 1 with weapon of choice. If it was made a requirement, then no other class beside fighter would be able to go weapon master unless you multi classed your character three ways.

As the definition of the feat states

Quote
Specifics: A character with this feat has trained especially hard with a specific weapon type, gaining a +2 damage bonus when using these weapons in combat.

Also since to be a weapon master you do have to take weapon focus, which is also required for the weapon specialization feat, it just seems to go hand in hand.

Any how, yep! Proposing that the weapon master receives woc and weapon specialization at level 1. It could be stated that this might give a lot of punch to the weapon master.. but when you think about it, they train years to become what they are, and would undoubtedly be truly better than the average joe.

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 10:27:54 am »
Or you could just take the feat like anyone else...

I'd propose just making it a feat a WM can choose, since Weap Spec is Fighter Only atm...

Then again you could argue the same thing for Duelists, Champions, Paladins....
 

ycleption

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 10:32:44 am »
Well, let's face it, Weapon Specialization is one of the very few things that fighters get that other classes can't... Sure, its thematically appropriate for weaponmasters too, but you could make the case that monks deserve to get an unarmed weapon specialization, or that duelists should get a free rapier weapon specialization, and so on.
Let fighters get a few perks to keep for themselves, weapon master gets plenty of goodies, it doesn't really need more.
 

s0ulz

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 10:34:41 am »
Weaponmasters are borderline overpowered as it is for Layonara, so I'd say we keep things as is. There is a point where realism must subside to mechanic balance.
 

Aerimor

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 10:57:50 am »
In my opinion the numbers speak for themselves.  There are NO shortages of weapon masters in game.  Obviously they are not too weak as is and need no additional freebies or restrictions removed.

As a side note, I have no qualms with what it took for my Weapon Master to be a Weapon Master and he is without doubt far more powerful with the WM class than by any other class that could be taken in its place.  Weapon Master is very solid.
 

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 12:09:32 pm »
Quote from: s0ulz
Weaponmasters are borderline overpowered as it is for Layonara, so I'd say we keep things as is. There is a point where realism must subside to mechanic balance.


Realism when looking at the chars played on Layo , is that chars with magic or other special abilities are the ones that are overpowering on the server , not the fighters .

I know this will be answered with " fighters die more often and therefor perm sooner , but maybe its time that the normal way off things in fantasy get re introduced onto Layo .

The world started out as low magical one , but lets face it , that was long ago and the world has changed to one where magic rules .

If it is possible to let a magic user run around with 600+ hit-points , 44 ac , 75% hidden , with summons and spells - then why not re introduce the most powerful things fighters could have , devastating critical ?

Just as the spell-caster had to take every available feat he could to reach the stats , so would be the case for the fighter to get to devastating critical .

There are plenty monsters that are immune to critical hits anyway , so the fable off " devastating critical with great cleave is far to overpowering " can be set back in the closet to never be used again ( forgetting the fact that great cleave only would work if the monster died in one hit - that means : crit hit has to be rolled and the monster must fail its save and that goes for every next monster )
 

s0ulz

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 12:25:55 pm »
Quote from: jan
Realism when looking at the chars played on Layo , is that chars with magic or other special abilities are the ones that are overpowering on the server , not the fighters .

I know this will be answered with " fighters die more often and therefor perm sooner , but maybe its time that the normal way off things in fantasy get re introduced onto Layo .

The world started out as low magical one , but lets face it , that was long ago and the world has changed to one where magic rules .

If it is possible to let a magic user run around with 600+ hit-points , 44 ac , 75% hidden , with summons and spells - then why not re introduce the most powerful things fighters could have , devastating critical ?

Just as the spell-caster had to take every available feat he could to reach the stats , so would be the case for the fighter to get to devastating critical .

There are plenty monsters that are immune to critical hits anyway , so the fable off " devastating critical with great cleave is far to overpowering " can be set back in the closet to never be used again ( forgetting the fact that great cleave only would work if the monster died in one hit - that means : crit hit has to be rolled and the monster must fail its save and that goes for every next monster )


I'm not talking about Melee vs Mage, I'm talking about the perks of the class versus the required investment. Besides, WM is supposed to be an extension of the Fighter class, so any fighter wanting to become a Weaponmaster could and quite rightly should pick up Weapon Specialization.
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 12:51:28 pm »
Quote from: s0ulz
I'm not talking about Melee vs Mage, I'm talking about the perks of the class versus the required investment. Besides, WM is supposed to be an extension of the Fighter class, so any fighter wanting to become a Weaponmaster could and quite rightly should pick up Weapon Specialization.


I totally agree with that.. As i see it WM is focused more on the art of the weapon itself , the way of using it eficiently and chanell his inner force upon the weapon. Hence why the Ki and the Crit increase.

Weapon specialization is more based on the fact of knowing how to strike due familiariy with battles and the use of the muscular force more eficiently, And well WM, seems to have another aproach to the whole concept of fighting. they know where and when to strike, combining that to their strenght. Not by strenght and technique only as the fighter does.

Hence Why Fighter / Weapon masters are supposed to be complete artist of their weapons.

Just my two cents
 

jrizz

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 02:12:59 pm »
All that being said, Jan does have a very good point about Dev Crit. It has been pushed very far out of attainable until 40th level for many and some where around 32 if you build specifically to get it. I agree it is way to far out to get. I say bring the STR req back down to 25.
 

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 03:56:17 pm »
Quote from: s0ulz
I'm not talking about Melee vs Mage, I'm talking about the perks of the class versus the required investment. Besides, WM is supposed to be an extension of the Fighter class, so any fighter wanting to become a Weaponmaster could and quite rightly should pick up Weapon Specialization.


Could you please explain what you mean by " the perks of the class versus the required investments " ?
Sorry if it is obvious what you mean , but English isn't my native language and i have no idea what you mean by " perk " .
 

s0ulz

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 05:07:04 pm »
Quote from: jan
Could you please explain what you mean by " the perks of the class versus the required investments " ?
Sorry if it is obvious what you mean , but English isn't my native language and i have no idea what you mean by " perk " .


What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.

In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.

Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 05:26:23 pm »
Quote from: s0ulz
What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.

In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.

Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.

Don't forget that for an extra 6 levels, you could potentially apply those bonuses to another weapon, as Epic WMs can take multiple Weapons of Choice.  It's impractical but possible
 

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 07:52:15 pm »
Quote from: s0ulz
What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.

In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.

Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.


                                Duelist

 

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 08:04:25 pm »
Quote from: s0ulz
What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.

In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.

Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.


                                Duelist

Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any
BAB: +6
Feats: Dodge - Ambidexterity - Mobility -
Weapon Proficiency (Martial, Rogue or Elf) - Weapon Focus: Rapier
 
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks - Persuade 5 ranks

lvl                            Extra
1                       Canny Defense

2                       Precise Strike +1d6

3                       Whirlwind Attack

4                       Grace +2

5                       Acrobatic Attack +2

6                       Precise Strike +2d6

7                       Elaborate Parry


                  Battlerager

Class: Barbarian
Alignment: Any non lawful                  
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +5
Feats: Cleave - Toughness - Power Attack
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks - Lore 2 ranks

lvl                            Extra
1                       Battle Rage 1x/day
                         Resist Poison
                        Skill Focus: Intimidate

2                      Aura of Courage  
                       Knockdown

3                     Battle Rage 2x/day
                      Improved Unarmed Strike

4                     Great Cleave
                      Improved Knockdown

5                    Armor Skin
                      Battle Rage 3x/day


                  Dwarven Defender

Dex : 13
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment:  Any lawful
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +7
Feats: Dodge - Toughness
Skills: -

lvl                           Extra
1                      Defensive Stance

2                      Defensive Awareness I

3                      Defensive Awareness II

4                      Dwarven Defender Damage Reduction


                 Shadowdancer

Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Feats: Dodge - Mobility
Skills: Hide 10 - Move Silently 8 - Tumble 5
 
lvl                          Extra
1                      Hide in Plain Sight

2                      Darkvision
                        Evasion
                       Uncanny Dodge I

3                      Shadow Daze
                        Summon Shadow

4                      Shadow Evade

5                     Defensive Roll
                       Uncanny Dodge II

7                      Slippery Mind


               Weapon Master

Intelligence 13 ( needed for expertise )
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )  
BAB: +5
Feats: Dodge - Mobility - Expertise - Spring Attack - Weapon Focus(melee weapon) - Whirlwind Attack
                       
Skills: Intimidate 4
lvl                          Extra
1                    Ki Damage
                      Weapon of Choice

5                    Increased Multiplier
                     Superior Weapon Focus

7                   Ki Critical





Five classes that i know are played and in my eyes are melee characters .

These are the facts directly from LORE and if you ask me , then Weaponmaster has the worst deal off all .
They have to invest the most and get only 1 feat more then DD , who only have to invest 2 feats .

( only went to max lvl 7 with extras , since you mentioned that those are all the lvls you need with WM , if you look at lvls higher you will see that the difference in extras even becomes greater . )
 

Gulnyr

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 08:24:53 pm »
Quote from: jan
These are the facts directly from LORE and if you ask me , then Weaponmaster has the worst deal off all .
They have to invest the most and get only 1 feat more then DD , who only have to invest 2 feats .


Invest the most what?  Feats?
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 10:22:24 pm »
Quote from: jan
              Weapon Master

Intelligence 13 ( needed for expertise )
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )  
BAB: +5
Feats: Dodge - Mobility - Expertise - Spring Attack - Weapon Focus(melee weapon) - Whirlwind Attack
                       
Skills: Intimidate 4
lvl                          Extra
1                    Ki Damage
                      Weapon of Choice

5                    Increased Multiplier
                     Superior Weapon Focus

7                   Ki Critical
Don't forget you need 13 DEX for Dodge and Mobility and that Intimidate is a cross class skill for Fighters, and most other Melee Base classes
 

Lance Stargazer

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 10:27:14 pm »
Just before we expand more on balance of classes.  I'd like to say that this thread is about Weapon specialization for WM, right?
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 10:35:37 pm »
Yeah, but the very nature of these "Can X class get X benefit" threads means they are going to waver from the main point because people are going to start arguing about balance, about Class Y not having something, etc...

You know, I was gonna add a whole rant about why these sorts of threads annoy me, and why this one just irks me something awful, but I decided to just tell you that, instead of troll/flame the thread...  Continue discussing this to ad nausium...  :)  I'm gonna just ignore this thread now...
 

Gulnyr

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 11:17:56 pm »
Every time there is some argument about class balance, someone always narrows things down too much.  That's why I asked what "invest the most" means.  If it's only invested feats being considered, who cares?  As far as I'm aware, there's only one Weapon Master that doesn't have Fighter levels.  Fighters get oodles of feats, and Weapon Master is almost always a Fighter PrC, so it's not that big a deal that it requires lots of feats.  Spending feats is not really a serious investment for Fighters, and the feats required for WM aren't 'throw away' filler, anyway.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 11:28:19 pm »
Quote from: ycleption
Well, let's face it, Weapon Specialization is one of the very few things that fighters get that other classes can't... Sure, its thematically appropriate for weaponmasters too, but you could make the case that monks deserve to get an unarmed weapon specialization, or that duelists should get a free rapier weapon specialization, and so on.
Let fighters get a few perks to keep for themselves, weapon master gets plenty of goodies, it doesn't really need more.

Just the share amount of feat a fighter can take in a very short time is the perk of the fighter.  They get the regular feat at each 3 level interval plus one extra feat every two level.


Quote from: Lance Stargazer
I totally agree with that.. As i see it WM is focused more on the art of the weapon itself , the way of using it eficiently and chanell his inner force upon the weapon. Hence why the Ki and the Crit increase.

Weapon specialization is more based on the fact of knowing how to strike due familiariy with battles and the use of the muscular force more eficiently, And well WM, seems to have another aproach to the whole concept of fighting. they know where and when to strike, combining that to their strenght. Not by strenght and technique only as the fighter does.

Hence Why Fighter / Weapon masters are supposed to be complete artist of their weapons.

Just my two cents


If you know the art of the sword (or any weapon for that matter) to perfection, as being a weapon master implies. Then you know how to perfectly apply your art to be the most devastating weapon handler.


Quote from: Gulnyr
Every time there is some argument about class balance, someone always narrows things down too much. That's why I asked what "invest the most" means. If it's only invested feats being considered, who cares? As far as I'm aware, there's only one Weapon Master that doesn't have Fighter levels. Fighters get oodles of feats, and Weapon Master is almost always a Fighter PrC, so it's not that big a deal that it requires lots of feats. Spending feats is not really a serious investment for Fighters, and the feats required for WM aren't 'throw away' filler, anyway.

Unless you're speaking of Feh, then there is two :p