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Author Topic: Weapon specialization for Weapon master  (Read 1104 times)

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2009, 12:14:30 am »
Quote from: ShiffDrgnhrt
Don't forget you need 13 DEX for Dodge and Mobility and that Intimidate is a cross class skill for Fighters, and most other Melee Base classes


the only one not using either dodge or mobility is battleranger , so i figured i would give them that since all others require the 13 DEX ;)
 

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2009, 12:16:12 am »
Quote from: Lance Stargazer
Just before we expand more on balance of classes.  I'd like to say that this thread is about Weapon specialization for WM, right?


It is and by showing that WM's dont get as much as everyone seems to think i hope to show that an extra free feat wont be as bad as they think :)
 

jan

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2009, 12:18:29 am »
Quote from: Gulnyr
Invest the most what?  Feats?


Feats - skills - ability stats , to even be able to take the WM class .
 

s0ulz

Re: Weapon specialization for Weapon master
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2009, 02:10:43 am »
There is very little point in arguing about the weight and level of power of these feats, but as I stated before, WM has LORE: Increased Multiplier and LORE: Ki Critical which are two enormously strong feats for a low/mid-magic world with very rare permakeen.

However I will offer my insight into the other classes you posted as well, even if only just for reference.

Quote from: jan
Duelist

Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any
BAB: +6
Feats: Dodge - Ambidexterity - Mobility -
Weapon Proficiency (Martial, Rogue or Elf) - Weapon Focus: Rapier
 
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks - Persuade 5 ranks

lvl                            Extra
1                       Canny Defense

2                       Precise Strike +1d6

3                       Whirlwind Attack

4                       Grace +2

5                       Acrobatic Attack +2

6                       Precise Strike +2d6

7                       Elaborate Parry


Duelist has 3 of the same feats of WM-s 6 as requirements and forces the PC to withdraw from using a shield. To offset this, the Duelist gets LORE: Canny Defense which in itself is a powerful feat, but isn't click-and-go, it requires investment into an ability score that does not directly benefit any melee character, therefore spreading the Duelist's ability scores very thin.

The Duelist is hardly a weak PrC, on the contrary it is very strong, but it requires to be built into with careful multiclassing and level planning to make it effective. It's a late bloomer and none of the feats the Duelist has, affect damage output as severely as the WM-s two feats along with a strong boost to Attack Bonus and the fact that the WM really needs to focus on one ability score to emphasize its effectiveness.

Quote from: jan
                 Battlerager

Class: Barbarian
Alignment: Any non lawful                  
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +5
Feats: Cleave - Toughness - Power Attack
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks - Lore 2 ranks

lvl                            Extra
1                       Battle Rage 1x/day
                         Resist Poison
                        Skill Focus: Intimidate

2                      Aura of Courage  
                       Knockdown

3                     Battle Rage 2x/day
                      Improved Unarmed Strike

4                     Great Cleave
                      Improved Knockdown

5                    Armor Skin
                      Battle Rage 3x/day


The Battlerager is a very strong PrC in the sense of investment vs gain. It singlehandedly puts a Barbarian, that otherwise lacks feats it lacks from not getting Fighter bonus feats, on the same level or slightly above as a pure fighter of the same level.

However, the only thing that does set it apart is the fear immunity in the form of LORE: Aura of Courage . So, looking at only mechanics, it's a filler PrC for Barbarians, it hardly boosts their prowess by much beyond gaining access to certain feats earlier than usual.

However, it has quite severe restrictions. What a WM really requires (or should require) is a certain amount of levels in Fighter to accumulate the feats and BAB. The Battlerager on the other hand requires a certain race, class and RP-wise it forces you to play a reckless axe-idiot to portray the class correctly. The WM has none of similar restrictions. He can be whatever, whoever and use whichever weapon (or two) and gain massive melee bonuses to it.

Overall the Battlerager is a uniquely fun class and offers a lot of RP options, however it does post many requirements and restrictions that most players do not enjoy (proven by the lack of Ragers in our community).

Quote from: jan
                 Dwarven Defender

Dex : 13
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment:  Any lawful
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +7
Feats: Dodge - Toughness
Skills: -

lvl                           Extra
1                      Defensive Stance

2                      Defensive Awareness I

3                      Defensive Awareness II

4                      Dwarven Defender Damage Reduction


Ah, my beloved Dwarven Defender. While overall nothing too special, in a lower end magic world, which does not offer immunities very freely, it shines like a beacon in the night.

The DD in essence has three trademark abilities/feats:
1) LORE: Defensive Stance - A bandaid to aid the Heavy Armored melee to be slightly more evasive and tougher, but requires you to stand still, which is bad.
2) LORE: Defensive Awareness II - The Grail of this PrC, it allows you to withstand Sneak attacks that are performed via flanking. It's great, but sadly due to Bioware's capable hands, it has kinks and bugs of its own.
3) LORE: Dwarven Defender Damage Reduction - 3/- DR every 4 levels of class. It helps against the damage, but again to make it worthwhile, you have to invest massive amounts of levels into it, and preferrably build around Constitution to make it great. This however weakens the damage output of the character in question.

In comparison to WM, the DD focuses more on survivability and does a great job at it, but requires massive investments to be effective above par. DA II is effectively its greatest asset, similar to the Shadowdancer's HiPS, but I haven't gotten to the other aspects yet - restrictions.

The character has to be lawful, a dwarf and it requires CDQ-s to acquire. That puts things nicely into perspective, balance-wise. Taking all of that into account, WM is already better as is, without WS.


Quote from: jan
                Shadowdancer

Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Feats: Dodge - Mobility
Skills: Hide 10 - Move Silently 8 - Tumble 5
 
lvl                          Extra
1                      Hide in Plain Sight

2                      Darkvision
                        Evasion
                       Uncanny Dodge I

3                      Shadow Daze
                        Summon Shadow

4                      Shadow Evade

5                     Defensive Roll
                       Uncanny Dodge II

7                      Slippery Mind


Built to supplement the Rogue with more Sneak attacks, it's greatest asset is LORE: Hide in Plain Sight . Thankfully now Rangers get a similar ability, so they really have no pressing need to multiclass into it. Beyond HiPS, which is very powerful, the Shadowdancer offers a Rogue very little. To a Ranger it offers several defensive feats such as LORE: Evasion , but whether it's worthwhile to them is a whole other topic.

All in all, a great class with one amazing ability, but beyond that it's mostly useless (and cheesy, if only used for HiPS). The WM gives to a fighter much more than SD to a Rogue, due to the fact that the WM feats are passive in nature.

Quote from: jan
              Weapon Master

Intelligence 13 ( needed for expertise )
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )  
BAB: +5
Feats: Dodge - Mobility - Expertise - Spring Attack - Weapon Focus(melee weapon) - Whirlwind Attack
                       
Skills: Intimidate 4
lvl                          Extra
1                    Ki Damage
                      Weapon of Choice

5                    Increased Multiplier
                     Superior Weapon Focus

7                   Ki Critical


All I want to add to the WM requirements is that it really needs only one feat that is useless and that is LORE: Whirlwind Attack . LORE: Spring Attack is great for a pure fighter to have anyway and so is LORE: Expertise . Every purebreed fighter would eventually take them anyway (with so many extra feats to burn, they eventually run out of options).


Quote from: jan
Five classes that i know are played and in my eyes are melee characters .

These are the facts directly from LORE and if you ask me , then Weaponmaster has the worst deal off all .
They have to invest the most and get only 1 feat more then DD , who only have to invest 2 feats .

( only went to max lvl 7 with extras , since you mentioned that those are all the lvls you need with WM , if you look at lvls higher you will see that the difference in extras even becomes greater . )


I disagree, I think that the WM gets a lot for 7 levels without hardly any useless or overdemanding requirements in both mechanics, roleplay and character development.

But to make it clear, I'm not trying to prove that the WM is infact overpowered, I'm trying to prove that they hardly need any additional freebies. That is all.

This is completely my personal opinion, but I do hope the arguments I presented above shed some light into it.
 

 

anything