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Author Topic: XP for rogue/skills?  (Read 898 times)

Dezza

XP for rogue/skills?
« on: November 27, 2012, 03:17:49 am »
Not sure if this a viable option for layo.

Ive seen it done elsewhere where a rogue that unlocks a door or chest or that removes a set trap gains a small xp reward for performing a successful action.

The xp reward is based on the difference between the rogue level and the DC of what they were attempting. Negative returns indicate DC level of XP.

So a level 5 rogue opening a door with a DC of 15 gets 150xp while a level 40 rogue opening the same door gets base xp because the level vs DC returns a negative value. Xp= 15xp.

Another example;
level 5 rogue opens a DC 18 door XP= 18-5 = 13x18 = 234xp
Level 15 rogue opens a DC 18 door XP= 18-15 = 3x18 = 54xp
Level 20 rogue opens a DC 18 door XP= 18-20 = negative value = 18xp

You could do this for all classes using open doors/disable traps and possibly several other checks as well if you wanted to use it and expand it to other scenarios?
 

Guardian 452

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 04:20:28 am »
I seem to recall Baldur's Gate II having this.... unlocking doors, dissarming traps etc. earned you some XP.
 

drakogear

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 04:49:21 am »
Interesting idea... though in my experience (mostly early game) I never really ran across any locked doors, chest (or any loot-able containers) or traps... aside from those in gm run/supervised quests.

So don't think there's any extra coding or anything needed for this idea... just reward the rogue for role playing. ;)
 

cbnicholson

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 08:37:15 am »
I love this idea!
"Give a man a mask and he will show you his true face." 

Oscar Wilde
 

RollinsCat

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 09:24:56 am »
Ditto
 

Dorganath

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 09:33:20 am »
Quote from: drakogear
Interesting idea... though in my experience (mostly early game) I never really ran across any locked doors, chest (or any loot-able containers) or traps... aside from those in gm run/supervised quests.

They exist all over the place.
 

Dorganath

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 09:38:34 am »
I'm sure it's possible.

The issue would be that we'd have to prevent it from being farmed somehow, such as a rogue re-locking and re-picking the same lock over and over again....because we both know it would happen.

A straight difference between level and DC is a bit much, considering that a level 1 rogue might have 7-8 (modified) skill points available even without equipment. I see what you're saying though...something commensurate with the challenge. Using the skill level vs. DC is probably more appropriate than using character level.
 

Aphel

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 02:16:53 pm »
It's a good idea. And a bad idea, given how mechanics work. In my opinion, the creative, well-timed and challenging use of skills should always be awarded with even a tiny bit of XP on the side. Traps and locks are good for that. On the other hand, it can and will be farmed, just like monsters and so on, due to the fact that one needs to level to have a mechanical character improvement in terms of skill and so on (it's a downside and design problem of the D&D system).
On the other hand, if you consider giving XP away like that -
Will there be XP for Bards and Paladins when making a good persuasion check? For Druids and Rangers if they use animal empathy?
For Wizards if they use counterspells?
For Clerics if they heal others?

Why's there no award for solving an encounter without fighting? If my rogue is good at sneaking - why's there no award when I sneak around my enemies?

The NWN mechanics are not very well designed, just like the system they are derived from. D&D never truly was made for playing just with mechanics and no GM.
 

Dremora

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 09:25:55 am »
Dorg you can set in a script that prevents the locks from granting xp after being 'tagged' as open perhaps. If not you can also set a script that should stop the xp being granted until a certain RL time has passed. I've seen it on other servers, its a good technique that rewards rogues for pursueing and practising skills that are a huge bonus to that sort of class.

Aphel, you have to think about not shooting down improvements because they are applicable in generalzation to every single class out there. I could say why don't you get xp for this that and the other for every suggestion you put up there and rogues not getting p for unlocking and disarming would ft in with it. Just because it does not open the door to instantly find a wy to grant xp for every other class does not make it worth shooting down. Other classes could perhaps be improved in other ways but that takes time and thought.

This idea works in practise if done properly and it has my vote.
 

Aphel

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 11:41:26 am »
Dremora, I am just saying that I see a problem elsewhere, which, I  pointed out, are the NWN mechanics (and overall D&D design  principles, at least until version 3.5).

What you can grand XP for and for what not is purely a mechanical problem.
What you should grant it for is a matter of design philosophy that you build your mechanics with.

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more what I meant to say. Careful, lenthgy post incoming.

D&D  is a class-based, level-oriented system which uses experience points  awarded for solving encounters to measure skill progress in discrete  steps. NWN is, just as Baldur's Gate and other games, a representation  of a certain ruleset version and thus based on the same design  philosophy, but with a twist. While both NWN and Baldur's Gate know  quest rewards, roleplay rewards, rewards for class based activity, the  main chunk of experience needed for the next level is usally aquired by  combat. However, from what I know, this is not the intention of D&D.  Game engines are always a simpler form of the ruleset, for various  reasons.

Dungeons & Dragons rewards players for solving  encounters which make their characters learn and experience something  new. An encounter could be a cloud of dust on the horizon which moves  against the wind, it could be an old man's riddle, a book written in an  unknown language - it really could be anything. And encounter is not  "Your group comes across a DR14 group of ".
Equally, solving an encounter has many forms, depending on character and player. However, in the fewest of cases it is combat.

Example:
The  group comes across a group of human mercenaries camping close to the  ruins they wish to explore for clues. The mercs were spotted by the  group first, and the monk of the group knocked a guard unconscious  quietly which was about to spot them. While the fighter and the monk  discuss if that was necessary and the right thing to do, the cleric  notes that a fight now would mean that the group might not be able to  reach the objective, which is to explore the ruins for clues. Th  rogue/ranger decided to sneak ahead and prepare a little distraction for  the mercs. While the mercs are distracted, the group slips past them  and into the ruins.

The GM gave them a little roleplay XP beyond  what they would have gotten for the encounter. And the group had, even  more valuable perhaps, all their strength minus a few pieces of gear  required for the distraction. The encounter was resolved, the next one  could being: getting past the ruin's vegetation and find the hidden  entrance to the dungeon below.

XP should be given to solve  problems, in whatever way it might be. The problem must be a real  problem to the player and character, the solution not routine. NWN, even  with GM, is not quite able to handle such a thing swiftly from my  experience. And without GM, the only wy to get XP would be with combat,  since the mechanics allow for no other thing unless there is some heavy  scripting involved.
In D&D it's a sympthom of a new players to  only focus on combat and combat XP, since "that's what the core rule  book suggested" (at least back in the 3.0 and 3.5 version).
However,  if the only way that a character can advance is combat experience, all  players will try to create characters focused on combat as part of the  usual adaption process. It's what we more or less have now in Layo, and  even the tiny bit of disarm-trap and unlock door experience isn't really  going to change it. It's trying to improve an aspect without looking at  the whole. NWN is a D&D emulator and can by no means contain the  possibilities that the ruleset has to offer, even with a GM it is hard  work (for the GM). Without a GM, it's buffing up and killing things.  Some odd XP at the side for roleplay, crafting, bringing back people  from the brink of death with a potion will not really change that. Going  to kill the same creatures again and again, buffed to nearly maximum,  is still and will still be the quickest and most efficient way to gain  XP (even though the experience philosophy of D&D sees such things  not quite as experience worthy). This proposal will not change this. It  is why I said it is a good and a bad idea. It's a step in the right  direction, but it still misses the great picture in my opinion. It's a  small piece of chocolate on the side, but the rest still doesn't taste  good as the creator of the recipe intended. And no matter how much  chocolate you add, the main dish won't taste better. It might be that  this is why so many people lose interest in Layo. Still, we have to make  do with the NWN mechanics for now. Everybody has ideas to improve it,  the best for now, requireing the least scripting and headache is to  follow Milty's advice: Have weekly gaming nights with a more or less  constant, not too large group and a GM. That way, more creative things  than "buff up and kill things" can happen.
 

Dorganath

Re: XP for rogue/skills?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 01:31:32 pm »
I know what can be done with scripting.  That's not really even the question here. I'm sure it can be done.  The question is whether or not it should be done, or if it is done, should the XP given be any more than a token acknowledgement of the successful attempt.

The prime issue I have with it, as originally requested, is that it gives certain character class(es) an avenue for gaining additional XP (and potentially significant amounts) that aren't generally available to other classes without some serious sacrifices that could hinder the non-Rogue class.  

Sure, we could do this, and pretty easily, but what about Wizards? Do we give XP for counterspelling? I actually don't think this is possible, so how about spellcasting? OK, do able, but do we need to? We'd have to set the same sort of time-delay on earning XP...potentially on a per-spell basis, otherwise it would be just as easy (if not easier) to farm XP for spellcasters. What about Clerics? I guess they're "spellcasters" too, so the same could apply.  

But what about Fighters?

Yeah, that's one point where it breaks down.

Aphel makes some good points and I think they're important in the context of the original intent of NWN Layonara.  It is meant to use NWN to approximate a tabletop, pen-and-paper gaming experience but to do so in a persistent, always-available way.  In most tabletop gaming situations I've been in, people don't generally get XP for using their skills, for opening locks, or any other general use of the aspects of their classes, nor do people get XP after every kill typically.  Occasionally, someone solving a particular problem in a unique way might get an immediate boost, but that's been rare in my experience. Rather, XP comes at the end of a session or the end of a quest in bulk.  Beyond the XP earned from combat, this is pretty much the model we use here.

Particularly for the lower-level rogues, there already is a reward for unlocking the doors and chests scattered around the world: there's loot inside. It's not much usually, but it can help.

Now, if this was a skill-based system, there'd be no question.  

However, it's not, and as such I personally have an issue with intentionally favoring one class or even skill-set over another given the current design and intent of the world.

My opinions...ymmv.
 

 

anything