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Topics - cbnicholson
141
« on: July 23, 2008, 12:44:49 pm »
Sirs,
I've heard on the street that a guildmate of mine, Muhkuman, has been incarcerated for a disruption outside the city gates. As a member of a local trading guild in good standing, I must protest this abuse of the guards and the councils decision to arrest this person. I ask that he be freed and the guards be disciplined.
Ben Poetr
Angels Guild.
142
« on: July 17, 2008, 11:04:44 am »
Mulnari, Seplar 23, 1435
My first entry in this newly bound book of oak parchments provided by Reus, himself. What shall I write of? Shall I expound on the virtues of service, the pursuit of justice found in the edicts of the church or do as my uncle Daniel instructs and write of the heart?
His is a simple faith, my dear uncle and namesake, yet it has brought him both great pain and great joy. Sister Serissa encourages me to enter the ranks of the Justicars, since my studies have me dwell deeply into Church Law. I find this appealing, yet remember the wise words of Justicar Reus - One must listen in order to be heard. To this end, I have taken a vow of silence for my last year as initiate and only communicate with simple hand gestures and the occasional note. My duties for the last few years have been transcription of ancient texts to common speech and record keeping, in which there has been much since the Temple of Corsain welcomed the law abiding.
Knight - Captain Jennara visits me often as well, and I treasure our time together. Her simple speech and mannerisms hide a strength, that belies her small stature.
She and Sister Serissa both inspire my studies further and I wish to do them both credit with my own service.
This year is quickly ending; however, and on the holiest of holies, Ausir Shining - When the Gold's Eye looks brightest upon all of Layonara, I shall assume the mantle of full priest shortly after my eighteeth summer. I pray to the Great Golden one, that my Uncle and Father will both attend. I feel the presence of my mother, Tariana, close as always here in the temple, so at least one of mine parents shall see my iniate years completed.
Grant me your wisdom, All-Seeing, so that I may see men's hearts and minds and know thier true purpose as to best judge them according to your holy law.
Daniel Benjamin Poetr, Initiate
Temple of the Lord Protector, Vehl, Mistone.
143
« on: June 26, 2008, 11:06:24 pm »
*heavily into his cups, Ben Poetr leans against the bar at the One-eyed Harpy*
I'm tellin ya, it happened..Muhk, ya know that orcish fella?, him, myself, and Essa were lookin fer platty ta mine in the swamps when we got jumped by all these shadowy critters..hard ta hit em..they left me feelin awful weak too..
The ground shook somethin awful and this sixteen foot..*eyes widen and he gets very animated despite his drunken state* thing stepped out all covered in flame..Essa said somethin really bad bout then, but I've heard worse..Anyway..it sorta shouted GET OUT or something like that *shrugs* ..I can't really say..I was um..makin sure the way out was clear and was sorta already fifty feet down the tunnel.
We barely made it out alive as the buggered thing chased us all the way back ta the cave entrance and that's why I'm drinkin my sixth here*indicates the mug in his hand*..my nerves are shot. Iffn yer thinkin bout goin in there, best take a priest with ya..and leave yer will with kinfolk. *Ben turns and goes back to calming his nerves, muttering fearfully*
144
« on: January 21, 2015, 03:47:02 pm »
update: 29 April 2019 Hmm, 4 years since I last touched this and ten years from the initial post. So some updates are in order. Firstly, Both of my pain in the arse children made me a grandfather 4x. Son has a daughter, Daughter has 2 daughters and a boy. Coincidentally, my newest favorite t-shirt reads "Great Dads get promoted to Grandfathers!". Still married, still working the same job except I got a nice lateral and upward promotion with pay raise. What else? Oh, enjoying 5th Edition immensely since a game store opened in town and Roll20 provides some online game time as well with friends scattered near and far. I must say, I'm excited about Layo moving to Enhanced and I'm going to be giving the transfer a try tonight, already got NWN enhanced , might as well see if I can get Layo working. End of update. Hello, I've been in Layo for more than a year now but I've never taken the time to introduce myself since the new forums came about. My rl name is Chuck Nicholson and I live and love it here in Southern Minnesota, USA. My Characters here on layo are Ben and Daniel Poetr, two brothers who started from similar backgrounds, grew apart, and are now discovering they have more in common than they thought. Other facts of note: Married almost 17 years to my high school sweetheart, Nancy, and have two pain the arse yet beautiful children, one, my son of 16 years, some of you have met in the guise of Tragor, the half giant. Christine is my oldest and only daughter 17 going on 25 if she has her way. Other fairly close family members who play here are Talia, my sister and Zergon her boyfriend. My real life job involves hardware and software support for a web based lab application and I work for Mayo Foundation in Rochester, MN. To put it bluntly, I'm a hardware monkey..troubleshooting and swapping parts on dell boxes, shipping em off via Fed Ex to keep client sites happy.. Its a boring job, but it pays the bills. As a perk, I often times get to play at work. *looks around for his supervisor.* I started D&D a long time ago when the white wizard graced the cover of the first edition players handbook and through the years have played a more bash style game in various pen and paper groups. Layonara was both a pleasant surprise and a learning experience for me, one I've grown to love, much to my spouse's dismay as my Saturdays and Friday nights are now spent online. Sundays are suppose to be family day, but If I beg hard enough, sometimes I'll be here. I'll leave you all with a quote most should recognize- I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - *smirks* seeya ig. *some 8 years later*Wow, where does the time go!? and The written word is merely a glimpse through darkened glass at the changes within ourselves and others. I'll stick the form this time I think. I've grown lazier in my old age.  <span style="font-weight:bold">Forum Name:</span> cbnicholson <span style="font-weight:bold">Login Name:</span> Knightsfollytoo <span style="font-weight:bold">Age:</span> To young to be a grandpa at 43! <span style="font-weight:bold">Sex:</span> All male, all the time, but sometimes it's nice to stretch yourself. (RP wise, you filthy animals!) <span style="font-weight:bold">Location:</span> Southern MN, where it's too cold 3 mos out of the year, but not Canadian cold usually! <span style="font-weight:bold">Timezone:</span> cst <span style="font-weight:bold">NwN Experience:</span> Here, a little bit elsewhere, a bit more somewhere else, but I start and end here for various reasons. <span style="font-weight:bold">PnP Experience:</span> As above. <span style="font-weight:bold">Occupation:</span> As Above, but I've moved on to Recycling and Redeploying all the technological bits and bobs that a modern medical institution tosses after being fully depreciated. *notice I did not say appreciated, Hint: It's an accounting term* <span style="font-weight:bold">Characters Played:</span> My goodness, as above, plus a dark elf (never got much traction from him) A halfling (same as first, I'm too tall to play a short char well, hard to relate. ), Daniel Benjamin Poetr is my main presently, Jo Poetr, Stephen Poetr, Charlie Poetr (seeing a pattern here?!) and Delia(still making some mental adjustments, bear with me!).<span style="font-weight:bold">What I like to see IG: </span>RP banter, a little back and forth using your character's mindset as the start. Disagreements are good, standing for what your character believes in is fine, but at the end of the day, we're people behind the keyboard. Players who remember that tend to stay and have the best time in my experience. Hint: if you are role-playing, a friendly tell is a nice reminder that avoids hurt feelings - Even if your character is a jerk!. Just saying.<span style="font-weight:bold">What I dislike to see IG:</span> Griping, griefing, rules lawyers who take it too far, and those perfectionist grammer and typing weirdos. Why let perfect be the enemy of good enough I ask?
145
« on: June 06, 2007, 12:19:49 pm »
My character Benjamin Poetr died in Dark Moors on the map with the castle while in the company of Tariana and Drexia. Problem I have is this: as he was dying, NWN crashed out and upon my return as Daniel * I suspected a problem with Ben's death* Ben had no stone. I know he was dead because I saw him eat another arrow for ten damage while lying there helpless at -9 hp  . The other two were able to recover by their respective stones. I am asking for GM presense at the location of Ben's death just in case I log in alive only to be cut down ruthlessly once again by the worgs gnawing on my bones. I will try to log in later as Daniel and request help on the DM channel before making the attempt as Benjamin. Thank you for your time.
146
« on: April 05, 2007, 12:28:44 pm »
Be'min was frightened, belay that he was terrified. The old malice toward his pale kin of the surface had brought many war parties to what he thought of as his wood. With them, humans and Darthir had come as well. There were less and less places to hide from either group and that is what troubled him.
Gnawing on a haunch of raw pork, leftovers from a dire spider's feast, he contemplated his next move. Flee or betray, he wondered. The signs were there, the dark master of his mistress had left markings for a gathering, but having feasted on hate for so long in the deep, Be'min wasn't sure if he could stand to sup on more. The golden fools had come, the animals fled from them, yet they had not overhunted or killed as they usually did, instead they brought their own supplies and had set up a camp, leaving the ranging to those with sharp eyes and ears. This frightened him too. Yet in the recesses of his mind, he knew he would find no mercy with his dark kin and should look for honor in the surfacers. If such a thing was to be found, the golden fools of the Dragon would have it. Perhaps if they found him he would betray, he wasn't sure.
Tossing aside the remains of his meal, he took up his katana , oblivious to the rust on its edge and on his armor or the debris in his white locks, he became the hunter once more, his eyes glowing red as he stalked his eight legged prey.
147
« on: March 17, 2007, 02:49:16 pm »
Behind the wall.. Jumped funny. Please help.. thanks.
I'm out .. thank to Nova!
148
« on: March 09, 2007, 07:37:14 pm »
Is it possible to retire or make inactive a character without perming him or her? I would like to withdraw Daniel from the Angel's Guild and make him inactive *non playable by me*. Is this possible?
149
« on: February 10, 2007, 11:39:45 am »
* a fine parchment is tacked to the board in the Inn, carefully penned in a merchants careful script is the following*
I must announce the passing of Melanna Jin'Daern. Her body lies in Velensk Temple for visitation. May the Lord Protector take into himself his own.
Claw and Scale
Daniel Poetr.
150
« on: November 06, 2006, 08:05:30 am »
//pasting from submission
“Gods curse you , Benjamin, get out!” my brothers drunken tirade is almost a full fledged shout, “You have brought shame on me and the Poetr name for the last time, you.. you.. thief!” His anger obviously rising, Stephen, my eldest brother by almost a decade, stands from behind the old mahogany desk and jabs a finger in my direction. “You hear me, GET OUT and don't come back! Or by the Provider, I'll call for the watch and have them arrest you! You have taken from me for the last time.” I smirk at him and attempt to look at him closely in the only light of a dim homemade candle in the shabby study. His nose is largish and red and his eyes reveal his weakness for his favorite drink, Hammer Bock. From the reek of his breath, my 'dear' brother, Stephen must have polished off a bottle before my arrival some half and hour ago. The vapors of it make even me, a veteran of more than few taverns, feel queasy. I regard him cooly, waiting for his spirit induced rant to play itself out. His great bulk is all fat, and I know I can take him if he tries anything ..funny.
The object of questionable ownership being a simple golden statuette of a dragon that our father had hidden in a bookshelf. This 'precious' momento found by me some days ago fetched a paltry 40 trues from the creepy man who gave no name, but expressed an interest in it when I showed to him. In the bartering that followed his interest, the man showed me the order of the Knights of Wyrm official embossed seal on the bottom, but informed me that despite its gold appearance, the statuette was merely brass. Times being what they were and Stephan's drinking habit having depleted the Poetr family fortune, I sold that statue for the 40 trues willingly and returned home to face my brother's wrath. A low chuckle unwittingly escapes my throat as Stephan begins to choke and sputter in his fury. His entire face has began to turn a queer purplish color and I step back fearing the fat lout will fall on me in his distress. I note with a little interest that this time instead of calming himself with another drink, my brother has brought his hands to his throat and is no longer making the required raspings of respiration. “Oh ...!” I mutter as as I step behind him and place a solid whack to the middle of back. My quick intervention has the desired effect and Stephan's ragged inhalation confirms the windbag isn't empty just yet. He collapses into the tattered remains of a once fine oaken chair and glances back at me with a look of pure.. hatred. “Get out.” he gasps one more time reaching for one of the ever present bottle of bock. My anger starts to rise at this unfair treatment and I eye the soft tender spot on the back of his head – the perfect target for a knock out blow from my sap, tucked into my tunic. Before the thought finishes itself, I've acted on that impulse and my dear brothers breathing settles into a easy rhythm for the first time that evening. I check the life's pulse in his neck and a thready thump thump is felt in my fingers.
Quickly, I search his clothes and strike it lucky. Inside his tunic are some three dozen trues and key. Seizing both trues and key, I make my way to the back room of the study where the family safe is kept, some deft movements of the key in the lock and the safe swings open. I let out a harsh laugh as I see what treasures my brother has kept- some half dozen bottles of hammer bock ale. That figures. Sweeping them into my pack, I'm surprised to discover a lone letter parchment behind them. Returning to the dim light of the candle, I see its a letter to mother and father from of all people – Daniel. From its apparent age and the date it arrived some months ago before the sickness took mom and dad from us. Swallowing hard to relieve the lump in my throat, I tuck the letter inside my tunic noting its stamped from Hlint. If Stephan hated anyone more than me, it was Daniel. “The golden fool” he called him. Seems Stephen and Father agreed on one thing at least, Daniel was a fool but had somehow gained the good graces of a guild in Krandor. “hmm” I ponder the possibilities as Stephen naps peacefully next to me. I've worn out my welcome in Luck, best the move on to greener pastures. Patting my 'dear brother' on the back, I remove the last item of any value from his person, his lambswool cloak, one of the last made in our fathers shop, and walk out the door.
Benjamin sits in a cubby behind the forge writing down a few thoughts in a book he lifted from the general store's garbage bin. Its missing a few pages, but still has enough left to get a good start in. He has dug a small hole under a rock and lined with a bit of leather and cloth to keep it dry.
I suppose I should start a journal, I've spied several other new arrivals here in Hlint writing in such books here and there. Can't keep it on my person , too much evidence in it already. *scans the first few pages* Yep, enough to get me tried and hung for armed robbery. *chuckles low* oh well its my neck to gamble with. Ever since Dad got sick and Stephan blew all the family fortune on booze, I've given up on magic and focused instead on survival skills, of course, I wish life had turned out different, but If my luck holds maybe I can score it big here..somehow. *uneasily eyes Garent walking his beat and mutters * "swine, yeah keep walking tin can". Anyway, my first few days were anything but pleasant, folks here just don't trust someone like me. *smiles slyly* and for good reason. Guess I blew big time when I accosted that cutie Rofie priestess, Mylindra. I tried the old Poetr charm, but she wasn't buying it, in fact I think she tattled me out to that fool brother of mine, Daniel, about our exchange. *rubs a bruise on his left cheek as his tongue finds the hole where a tooth used to be* yeah, he may be an idiot, but he's a strong idiot and he beat me pretty bad for that bit of indiscretion. So I did what any survivor does I improvised and changed my tactics. Yeah, meet the new , better mannered Benjamim *snickers to himself*. At least that's what they will see, no sense alienating all that help out there. Speaking of help, I'd love to help that Melanna out of that tight armor. oops there I go again. Anyway that fiery redhead can really swing that iron she's packing. She did this one manuever in the sewers ahat was like ..wow. Made me forget all about her tight armor let me tell you. *chuckles in admiration* Well, she helped me so maybe the new me, is a bit better off than the guy who arrived here. *shrugs* time will tell I guess. The best part, other than the gorgeous warrioress redhead, was the payoff! That clerk gave me 200 trues, that more score than I've held -ever. Can't wait to sleep in a real bed, even if its only for a night. "Indeed", she sure likes that word. Guess maybe I'd better see about that room and maybe a bite to eat, I'm famished!
151
« on: October 18, 2006, 07:49:03 am »
I made a second character the other day with the intention of exploring a darker side than my wool headed paladin wanna be - Daniel. Benjamin Poetr here: http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=31082&posts=2&start=1Problem is I don't even like him much. In fact after a bit of thought, I'm even considering having him deleted or at least only taking him out to exercise some demons :p I need to chill him out some so first OOC - my apologies to Exodus Stonecutter and any other characters I disabused and a Thank you to Gillie *a Misty priestess* for playing along and giving him at least a chance to try and make something of himself. To put in blunty, Benjamin is a punk - a big mouthed, rude , lazy, good for nothing punk. As such I need some ideas - I didn't realize how hard it would be to rp this guy until I found myself trying to get into his shoes in game. To summarize - tips on being antisocial and rude yet still being able to group with the like minded and oh yeah, what are the major no no's that will get me banned? I don't want to go there. I did a search and came up with a lot of threads that were locked due to flaming /griefing/personal attacks so I'm not totally clueless, Just would appreciate any advice. 
152
« on: September 26, 2006, 07:19:53 am »
New to Hlint and in need of protection? Look no further friend, Daniel Poetr canst help thee. In stock art two sets new full copper plate. Generous terms of sale available. Also a proven iron longsword for sale available with enchantments of thy choice upon request.
//level 6 required I think for the armor and weapon. Enchantments are dependant on what Illvacla eo El'Wilmlayla Guild has in stock and are at set prices.
153
« on: August 24, 2006, 08:30:31 am »
Daniels walks into the inn, a small bag of coin jingling on his belt. He glances inside the bag and counts carefully. He frowns then grins as a few more coins find thier way into the bag. He pulls a small piece of parchment from his pack and writes with a quill and ink:
Droden, Son of Toran
With your sudden departure, thou left a tidy sum. As agreed by all thy companions afore, all bounty from the Haven Mine expedition falleth to thee. Pray contact mineself on its delivery whenst able.
Claw and Scale
Thy servant, Daniel Poetr
//its about *grins* 1000 coin. I'll be on later today (after 2 pm cdt or tonight 7-10 cdt).
154
« on: August 08, 2006, 08:24:22 am »
Daniel pulls his old trusty plate mail from the ox pack, whilst Bessie contendedly muches the yellowing grass behind the quartermasters in Hlint. Running over each small dent and scratch in its much abused surface with his fingers, Daniel's thoughts turn to the Battle fens, the Haven Mines, Red Light Caverns, Seilwood Cave, the Grey Peaks, the old forest, and the many other places this armor has protected him from claw, fang, and club. "I wilst see if the local armorer canst repair this to newly new with these copper ingots afore I selleth thee faithful armor." Sighing, Daniel carefully writes out " For sale, full copper plate, contact Daniel Poetr of Hlint for details" on a bit of parchment and tacks it to the wall in the Wild Surge. Pulling his newly reforged bronze armor, freshly painted from his pack, Daniel mutters to himself "Time to see if thee wilst serve- the Lord Protector willing". Donning the golden plate, Daniel takes up his shield and sword and and makes his way out the east gate.
//full copper plate, silver and gold coloring. 2000 coin. reply here to arrange for sale in game. I am in CDT so no times before 5 pm local on weekdays please.
155
« on: August 07, 2006, 07:31:30 am »
a notice is placed on the wall:
Mine brother and sisters in Rofirein, I hath recieved a missive from Capt Duvall from Pranzis (a small bit of spittle can be seen in the margin here as Pranzis is crossed out roughly and Prantz written in) . He sendeth his apologies for the lateness of his missive but giveth direction to the faithful here in Hlint. I quote: "In the meantime I am hoping to start investigating rumours of a Corathite sect operating in Mistone somewhere. That and gathering information on Drow activites as I am concerned about rumours of drow activities I have been hearing about." Pray send any information to mineself and or to Capt Duvall as thee learn of it. My thanks and a small reward of 50 coin to all corraborated information recieved.
Claw and Scale
Daniel Poetr
156
« on: May 25, 2006, 07:59:52 am »
a small note in neat precise script of a merchant is tacked to the board.
Sirrah,
I trust this note finds well and hale.
I seek thee in regards to a repayment of the favor thou hast given to me. Pray write back soon as to wherein and whenst we can meet to consumate this transaction.
Yours in Rofirein,
Daniel Poetr.
157
« on: May 01, 2006, 10:33:00 am »
To the august company of bear hunters,
My thanks for the fine times and perilous journeys in thine fine company. Alas, a calamity bestruck myself that I knoweth not but what the hand that guides me bade my return to the world and the company was undone round me. Ere alone I spied tigers and foul group of dwarves. Overwrought and sore afraid I flew from the tigers unto the dwarves. Four they were in number and shields were splintered and mine sword weilded, but for naught, for such a foe mastered mine alone unto sore wounding and I fell in that place I knoweth not. Such was my end that day. I make trust with the Gods of light that all else went well with the company and all to a man made safe passage back to Hlint. Let it be known that no ill will is held and that such is the dire risk that all who live by the sword must take. For such risk gives rise to valor and honor without life is but a hollow mask. Fare thee well until swords and shields meet again.
Yours unto death,
Daniel Poetr
158
« on: March 31, 2006, 08:45:25 am »
//Paste of Char submission:
Full Name: Daniel Peotr
Age: 20
Class(es):Fighter
Race:human
Subrace: (If Any)
Alignment: n. good
Deity:
2 Domains (if cleric):
Bio/Description:
Middle son of three and born to merchants, Daniel's only choices for a life of his own was the clergy or sell sword. As the piety of the local priests left Daniel somewhat puzzled, why live in poverty when wealth was as easy as moving goods from here to there? Life was good working for his father, but there had to be more to it than the accounting of woolen goods, arguing with local dyers and sheep herders over prices and quantities. It might suit his oldest Brother, Stephan to cloister himself in with books and ledgers, some day father's modestly successful wool trade would be his. Daniel's youngest brother, Benjamin, who had the song of magic in his blood, acceptance into a far away college two years ago left Daniel with no one. Benjamin's absence and the loss of the entertaining illusions made the long days of cart driving from the shearers to the dyers monotonous and dull. Daniel, a realist by nature, hoped to see more of the world than the south end of his father's draft horse, Rogar. Daniel craved adventure! Hlint promised that chance. Perhaps the local militia needed a good sword hand? Even the slaying of vermin would be preferable to such tedious duty. Old Jack, the local magistrate, had even shown Daniel a trick to or two with a his rusty shortsword. At least enough to appear competent with it and scare away potential bandits and thieves that sometimes waylaid merchants. Yes, Daniel was ready. His father had already reluctantly given his blessing with two conditions - Daniel must try his father's trade for two years and second - Daniel must send word of his whereabouts whenever possible. The first condition was met on his 20th birth year and as for the second, a solemn promise to send word was all that was required. Tomorrow was the day his new exciting life was to be lived. His bag, packed to bursting with a good set of clothes, a small sword, bow and some 20 odd arrows, a sturdy Peotr wool blanket, and enough biscuit and water for 5 days, sat next to the door.
edited to correct certain names for consistency and spellign mistacks, I hate those.
Edited by cbnicholson 10/26/2006 11:10 AM
Dear father and mother,
I finally made it to Hlint last night. Strangely the journey to was mostly uneventful, but for the dream of the dragon. The dragon seemed.. determined to have my help which I freely gave. Unfortunately, as the fates will be cruel, I lost most of my gear upon waking and had it replaced with some strange objects that I seem unable to use in any sane fashion. I shall strive to endure with what I have, but oh, for a good stout bow and arrows instead of this near useless crossbow and bolts.
I met a singer of songs, a bard, and another person named Zweck last night. I, being new to town, asked for directions and both seemed happy to help, but alas my impatience got the better of me and I ran off to find trouble in my own time. Trouble I found. Just north of town, I ran into orc, two falcons, and a rabid skunk!. I ran for my life after being blasted with skunk scent, the stench nearly did me in. The falcons swooped and pecked and the orc loosed his arrows at me shortly thereafter. I barely made it back to town alive father! Lesson learned - Fellow adventurers required for excursions outside of town. My funds are diminishing, the local cleric, while skilled, demanded 100 gold to heal my wounds. I was wont to pay it, but did for relief of the burning the skunk essense did to my wounds. I shall strive to do better. I have a goal now - given to me by a guard - return with the ears of 5 goblins. I shall attempt more adventure in the eventide after a brief rest.
The Gods of good bless and keep you both safe,
Your son, Daniel.
//adding some Ooc context, my choice of speech patterns gets more confusing later on and I can hardly tell what I was thinking after a bit of time from the writing. I will try to clarify some things here . First, this is my first persistant world character ever. All of it is new to me, from the commands to the emotes to the player interaction stuff. I struggled mightily to do the simple task of bartering at first. Daniel as a character is about as unorganized as one can get. I started his creation with the idea of being a flexible fighter and or Archer. His Str was an above average 14, not great, but ok. A dex of 16 to help his armor class out in the lighter armors and to help with his bow work. A con of 15 for hit points. The rest are all tens, no benefits, no penalties either. My skills and feats are all mixed up to. I think I took improved initiative and toughness out of ignorance more than any strategy. My skills were Parry (mostly useless) and healing (very useful)and discipline (somewhat) and lore. I played a simple fighter to keep my play simple, but get more than I bargained for later.
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