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Author Topic: CR Modified Quest XP  (Read 483 times)

Acacea

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 01:24:47 pm »
Quote from: Filatus
I do think that it brings one problem with it and that's balancing the cr of quests through the week and across timezones to give all levels a fair shot at at least to get to a quest meant for them.


This confused me. We already have quests limited by level, ie not 'open but you'll get less XP' but full out closed to someone not in a certain level range. If you're not epic, you can't go. If you're not below level ten, you can't go. Most quests have level limits, because of quest CR, which already need to be balanced through the week and across timezones to give all levels a fair shot at a quest meant for them. That's why you occasionally see threads crop up whining about how epics need more quests because they're not allowed to go on anything, or threads popping up because no one cares about low level characters and just favor high levels because they get all the quests. CR balance.

It's simply that in this version, which is an unlikely implementation and was more something to consider because I think the current one is simple but silly, there might be fewer quests that are actually level locked barring others from going period, and more that are simply aimed towards a certain range and those outside of that range will not find it as rewarding. So actually, I would like more open quests, but take away the reason for characters to go on every single one for the same amount of flat time-based XP. If Moraken wants to help save the village, fine, but he's not going to get as much XP as he would for saving the planes. He'll be there mostly for show-off value and to stretch his dusty limbs and taking a more 'direct' goal in guiding for a change.

Yes, all quests would still give XP - if anyone has read previous debates I have always defended the large amount of quest XP received because I think that no matter how tough the monsters, a character's abilities are never challenged and never matter as much as they do in a difficult quest. So no, it's not a taking away.

I was going to say it was as much a suggestion for the next version as this one, but I actually hate the XP system and would rather just get rid of experience points entirely than devise a new quest reward system using it. ;) Like some of the previous suggestions people have given for the new game, I think you should get better at something by doing it.... so if you go on a quest and act as the diplomat, maybe get some hits to persuade instead of this strange universal points thing :P
 

Filatus

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 01:33:37 pm »
Quote
We already have quests limited by level, ie not 'open but you'll get less XP' but full out closed to someone not in a certain level range.


True.. but  it differs a lot from the system you propose. At least, what I think you're proposing would be much more dynamic than having a quest capped to lvl 15, which is the most common one I believe.

Such a system would require that every quest has some CR? There are enough quests where level doesn't have to matter at all, but at the same time there might just be as many where it does.

Right now most quests are open to all levels and if I'm not mistaken your suggestion would imply that each quest comes with a certain CR? Which means that having a good spread becomes more of an issue than it is now.
 

Gulnyr

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 02:00:53 pm »
Isn't setting a level limit sort of like applying a CR to the quest?  By saying, "These are the levels this quest is for," you are saying, "This is the range of monster, trap, and skill roll CRs and DCs this quest has," right?
 

ycleption

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2007, 02:30:49 pm »
Quote from: Gulnyr
Isn't setting a level limit sort of like applying a CR to the quest?  By saying, "These are the levels this quest is for," you are saying, "This is the range of monster, trap, and skill roll CRs and DCs this quest has," right?


Well, Acacea's suggestion would allow for a quest to have mechanically meaningful suggested level range that falls short of outright level restriction.
I like the way that this would (hopefully) encourage people falling outside of the targeted level range to participate for RP reasons or whatnot, rather than xp reasons.
 

Gulnyr

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2007, 02:56:58 pm »
Right.  The way I'm reading some posts makes it sound like labeling a quest with a CR is radically different than what already happens, though.  A DM designing a quest with level limits must have some range of CRs and DCs in mind, which seems to automatically suggest a "Quest CR."  A no-level-limit quest would have its Quest CR determined by the average of the CRs and DCs involved.  

It already sounds like there are Quest CRs to me, but they just aren't called that or explicitly stated.  Maybe I'm just misreading the posts, and no one has implied otherwise.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2007, 03:34:52 pm »
And if a quest is really just as difficult for level 1 or level 40, there could/should be an option to ignore quest CR and give standard quest XP.
 

Acacea

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2007, 04:55:46 pm »
I've always kind of thought the amount depending only on how long you sit through something rather than how difficult the challenge was, is kind of weird, no matter who you are or what level. But it most recently reasserted itself after Acacea was getting poison lessons from Triba and Pan noticed Tribs was only like 400k from level 30...and I said something like, "Hey that's only like 5 quests! You can totally do that!" meaning regardless of difficulty level.

And then I kind of squinted an eye and imagined Triba leveling to 29 by driving the Blade of Shadows through Bloodstone's back after her life full of destroying bloodpools and dealing with dragons and generals and breaking into the most sacred and protected of Rofireinite sanctuaries, the last big event in her life being the destruction of the villain that threatened the whole world and who killed the dragons, the 'new' attempt at a threat, or sent them shrieking into hiding... and leveling to 30 with a few quests about saving some villages or escorting some priests, or even dealing with the big scary awful dragon threat that the previous threat scared the pants off of... solely because they were of the appropriate length...

My brain just got kind of boggled, you know? Gulnyr and I were joking a little about the server imploding when Acacea and Jennara reach Triba's level because it just feels weird, even though our characters have been involved in some crazy things. And it does, at least for me. Because I'm still playing, still going on quests (even if they will never again be quests in which she is the healer at the Bloodwell or another quest in which she is in the presence of a goddess), and still getting full XP for my time, regardless of what level it is or if it's really a test of her abilities.

Should it not be hard to find new challenges once you get to a certain point of mechanical level power? This brings me to something else that I have been turning in my head regarding the new game, so I'll have to make a new post about that or something...
 

Hellblazer

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2007, 05:22:52 pm »
Yes there should. Maybe its simple lack of time, I don't know. but it sounds like there should be more quest with a higher cr tapped in the 40's if that is even possible.

Pibemanden

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2007, 05:43:09 pm »
Quote from: Acacea
I've always kind of thought the amount depending only on how long you sit through something rather than how difficult the challenge was, is kind of weird, no matter who you are or what level. But it most recently reasserted itself after Acacea was getting poison lessons from Triba and Pan noticed Tribs was only like 400k from level 30...and I said something like, "Hey that's only like 5 quests! You can totally do that!" meaning regardless of difficulty level.


I totally agree here, that is a wrong way of thinking about leveling. However we are here for fun and leveling is part of that fun because it is fun to test new skills and such, but you should never attend a quest looking to earn just that little xp before you get over the bump to the next level.

Quote from: Acacea
And then I kind of squinted an eye and imagined Triba leveling to 29 by driving the Blade of Shadows through Bloodstone's back after her life full of destroying bloodpools and dealing with dragons and generals and breaking into the most sacred and protected of Rofireinite sanctuaries, the last big event in her life being the destruction of the villain that threatened the whole world and who killed the dragons, the 'new' attempt at a threat, or sent them shrieking into hiding... and leveling to 30 with a few quests about saving some villages or escorting some priests, or even dealing with the big scary awful dragon threat that the previous threat scared the pants off of... solely because they were of the appropriate length...

My brain just got kind of boggled, you know? Gulnyr and I were joking a little about the server imploding when Acacea and Jennara reach Triba's level because it just feels weird, even though our characters have been involved in some crazy things. And it does, at least for me. Because I'm still playing, still going on quests (even if they will never again be quests in which she is the healer at the Bloodwell or another quest in which she is in the presence of a goddess), and still getting full XP for my time, regardless of what level it is or if it's really a test of her abilities.


Now now... While this sets things in perspective you must remember that we can't save the world from destruction constantly. Plus RL and other constrants makes it impossible for some to ever get the chance of doing something of that magnitude even if they are just the same level and have the same skills and classes as someone who had the chance there.
I feel that it is wrong to judge someone so heavily on the scale of what you are and what you are not, surely some are greater heroes/villans than others but if you are level 30 then you are level 30 the way you got there being having fought a lot of small battles or a lot of huge ones wouldn't matter.
One thing that does matter though is how well known your character is and in which circles the character is know, while Triba is a great hero some of equal or higher level might or might not be so. Level is magnitude of power but by no means a way to measure the success of your character.
The problem with testing a characters powers is that by doing so quests would often end up in being one man shows. And really I must say I hate when that happen, because clearly everyone should have a chance to shine on quests, even if the person is 20 or more levels lower than some of the other characters. Yes power should be tested, but again unless you want pure combat quests it is hard doing so without making the quest very boring for some.

Quote from: Acacea
Should it not be hard to find new challenges once you get to a certain point of mechanical level power? This brings me to something else that I have been turning in my head regarding the new game, so I'll have to make a new post about that or something...


It should indeed be hard but again real life tends to hit very hard there. I would surely preffer to challenge Storold some more and have decided to do so by submitting him for a WLDQ but again RL limits play times and DM avalibilities and such, I am by no means complaining here just stating a fact of life.
If I had my way with Storold I would have build him up in a much different way than I have now, however one learns from ones mistakes and I guess that if I ever were to start a new character I would make a lot of changes in the way I played the first twenty levels.
But done is done and right now I have at least five different ways of testing Storolds abilities, if I will ever persue more than one of them only time will tell but I would sure wellcome even more fun and challenging quests from the very competent DM team. However I think that the focus should be shared all over the spectre as far as I see it we have at least two very high level series going on plus several are going to have or are having their wldq quests run in the comming time.
All in all I find it very fair that you get the same amount of hourly xp based on your level as you have done so far since there are no way you can make it fair for everyone. Surely some end up as greater heroes as others but the levels doesn't make them that it is what they do.

And just a few words of wisdom a wise halfling told me once, you don't have to accept the xp you can always have some removed ;)
 

Acacea

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2007, 05:53:55 pm »
I'm not sure that that was really what I was referring to, though. I was not for example saying that oh none of the current epics are as good as some of the older epics because they did more. That's why I used my own character as an example instead of someone else's, because I didn't really want anyone to feel that way, as it wasn't the point.

Rather, I used Triba's specific case because a) it is what reminded me of this and b) it illustrated what I was talking about - receiving the same amount of XP for a high level plot quest, for a kobold escort mission, because it lasted the same amount of time.

Yes, there are high level series, this thread was not meant to discuss not having something to do, or not having challenges. That is the other thread. *Snickers.* No, this was a thread saying that high level characters should profit most from their high level series that do exist, and from their WLDQs, etc. Not finding who murdered Nina's grandfather, which while it might be entertaining, does not help to as great a degree as something that tested their epic abilities.

If someone has all these time constraints, then they wouldn't be going on low level quests just because they can anyway, surely? Again, I am not trying to remove XP rewards for quests or anything, and this was not related in any way to non-DMed quest activities.
 

Pibemanden

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2007, 06:14:02 pm »
My personal experience with some players who has some time constraints tells me that people would actually like to go on the low level quest, not because of the xp but rather for the chance of DM time. Because when it comes down to it going on a quest is pretty much more fun than getting silver on Dregar for the 100th time or talking over some dayly talk in Hempstead because you sort of ran out of subjects for now.
I know this draws a sad and boring picture of the game, but some times you just end up feeling like that and well that is when you go find something else to do. I have found myself there a few times now, but well I always found something to do.
But I don't think the solution here is to lower the reward for these people who thinks it is fun to tag along on a low level quest to have some fun and do something different in the play time they have avalible.
 

Acacea

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2007, 06:20:03 pm »
I have been there too, and I have enjoyed my times on lower level quests. I just don't think those lower level quests are what should carry people to the heights of supreme epic power just by virtue of lasting 6 hours, heh.
 

Pibemanden

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2007, 06:25:41 pm »
Well then you should ask yourself the very old question, should killing ten million things get you to epic power? I would like to go back to Chongos answer and say that this is the wrong time for this. However I think it is a very important discussion for the new game as you brought it up in the other thread you just started. Here and now though I think is the wrong time to make any signifigant changes into the xp for quest system.
 

Acacea

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2007, 06:41:52 pm »
Pibe, I understand what you're saying, it's just that it doesn't really seem to address what I'm saying, like you're answering a different point or something. Should killing ten million kobolds make someone level 40? I don't know, but at least they're only getting 1xp instead of 100k?

I'm not proposing to take XP from quests - you'll still level if you kill ten thousand kobolds if that's what you want - merely making it so that quests do not give you 100k for 5 hours no matter what you are doing. If you spend it hunting kobolds, you'll just get 60k or something.

As well, there are still high-level series that will give full 100k chunks as well as XP for monsters killed on it. I posted this knowing that it would most likely be considered too 'complicated' to be implemented here, but it's hard for me to understand the argument of "you can do it with kobolds, why not with quests?" when the difference between kobolds and quests is exactly the one I am speaking of. 1xp vs 100k.
 

Pibemanden

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2007, 06:54:54 pm »
If you are going for the sole purpose of leveling you could level faster than quests in most cases by simply just killing the right CR of creature. Then you would rather see the xp ratio being 100k xp vs. 100k xp or maybe even tipped sligtly in favor of killing over questing.

Again I am not trying to say that the idea is wrong, just saying the time for it is.
 

Pseudonym

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2007, 07:36:42 pm »
A couple of thoughts.

Is the life of one worth less than the life of thousands? I suppose it depends on who that one 'is' to your character. If that one is the life of a family member many would probably work harder to prevent them harm than to save faceless thousands.

A high CR (reflecting their combat effectiveness) of an opponent doesn't necesarily make them more difficult to roleplay with/against.
Layo: Maybe the CR2 kobold chief is far more stubborn about relaxing the knife at the throat of the little boy than it was convincing Blood to glance towards the distracting thrown pebble so Triba could sneak up on him?
RL: Maybe Miyamoto Musashi was the trickiest swordsman but also the most gullible and all his samurai buddies used to use the jedi mind trick on him to get him to do what they wanted?

Point is, maybe the opponents with the potential for globe-spanning harm are not necessarily more difficult to deal with (reflected by the DCs of the skill checks) than someone with a more localised potential for harm?
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: CR Modified Quest XP
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2007, 08:56:56 pm »
Sneaking up on Bloodstone requires a stupendously sneaky creature (Triba). Bloodstone basically had one weakness. If negotiation fails, you've got to retreat.

Sneaking up on the goblin chief can be done by most anyone not wearing heavy armor. The Goblin Chief can be killed in numerous ways. If negotiation fails, a sneak attack in the back does nicely.

You don't become an exceptional being without maintaining an impressive amount of ability on almost all spheres- physical, social, political, etc.

That's my view, anyway.
 

 

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