Drow, Tieflings, Duergar, Orcs, Goblins, and the like...

[darkstorme]

This is just a general suggestion - I only mention it because I've not seen it in quests or mentionned in the forum w/r to quests - regarding those who give out quests (the characters, not the GM controlling them.)

They seem to show the same remarkable broad-mindedness exhibited by the regular individuals in Hlint.  While the Hlintarians may be accustomed to good-aligned all of the above, there's no reason (save if the individuals' names and deeds are known to the character) that they should want them involved with anything they need done.  Their mere prescence ought to cause trepidation, hesitation, or outright refusal to deal with the party if "that" stays with them.  If the character in question is wearing feature-obscuring clothing, an illusion spell, or a disguise, this should suffice, but if they're displaying their nature openly, they ought to encounter more resistance than they do.

As much as I love Layo, I've seen far too many of the races which are, on the whole, evil (such as Kell's own, of course), accepted with open arms.  I expected that Kell would have to earn the trust of those he met, or keep his nature hidden at all costs, but instead, this is only true with a limited few individuals who don't trust ANYONE, let alone a Tiefer.  I realize it's sometimes hard, but even those who know a few good individuals of the race in question ought to be suspicious of a new case.

It's been said before elsewhere, but I know that quests have a powerful influence on the future RP of the participants, so I'm posting it here.  Thanks, and thoughts?

[EdTheKet]

well, we've had dark elves destroy all crafthouses on Mistone (when all we had was a server with Mistone), have them attack Hlint around 5-6 times, had them occupy Spellgard for a few RL months and also the handbook shows them to be evil.
The "problem" is that people play to play with others and may consider it rude to be distrustful of others/ignore other players, even though it would probably be the proper way to react if you meet a new dark elf.

[Blackguy]

We need a worldwide attack of drow. Torture and screams. *smiles*

[darkstorme]

EdTheKet - 8/17/2006  4:11 PM

well, we've had dark elves destroy all crafthouses on Mistone (when all we had was a server with Mistone), have them attack Hlint around 5-6 times, had them occupy Spellgard for a few RL months and also the handbook shows them to be evil.
The "problem" is that people play to play with others and may consider it rude to be distrustful of others/ignore other players, even though it would probably be the proper way to react if you meet a new dark elf.

I'm aware of the logistical problems, of course.  But it is, to a certain extent, metagaming.  The only reason a player is hesitant to ignore/avoid/distrust the new dark elf is because they KNOW they're a good person - they have to be, they're a player.

While NPC Drow have every bit the evil reputation they're supposed to (likewise the other races), I don't see this carried over into player/player interactions and GM-controlled-NPC/player interactions as often as it ought to, given the established doctrine regarding the races.  Ironically, if they weren't listed as evil in the handbook and generally ruthless (vis. the attacks on Hlint and Mistone in general), there would be no problem - they'd just be another race, and they could have good characters as often as evil, and so would only be met with the approach one would usually take to a stranger, be that gregarious or mistrustful.  Since the races as a whole are supposed to be evil, however, avoiding rudeness to characters drawn from those races, while nice, is poor RP.

[FlameStrike]

Blackguy - 8/17/2006  9:29 PM

We need a worldwide attack of drow. Torture and screams. *smiles*

 *just grins*

[Acacea]

Asking for players to RP this will simply not happen; it's been posted about over and over and the "all races can be good!" argument comes up repeatedly. This mostly stems from not being able to personally see the things that go on regularly because the GMs don't have time to do the 23049823092nd drow raid.

NPCs however bug me to no end as well; player interactions are the result of either RP (they're just overly nice like that), or ignorance, or the reasons you posted (not wanting to be rude) but assuming all NPCs welcome you and roleplaying that is more along the lines of metagaming, from my view. Chatting up NPC merchants while you purchase things from them with not so much as a helmet and assuming that they are all cool with that is silly.

Heh, of course, this is from me, who would be delighted to play a drow who was killed on sight in a town if he had a weapon equipped, or have merchants refuse to sell to him (subrace drow, helmet no), or do so only at increased prices... so all CG drow rejoice that it is not so.

[Varka]

Acacea: I totally agree........
It is sad to see people trusting drow (by heart) but hey, everyone plays the way they wishes...  

Without saying too much, I even believe Varka is the only drow-hating mate in town (or at least shows it)...this shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone knowing/seeing him...

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Hey hey! Kobal may have grown into trusting 3 of them (which has taken more than 1 RL year), but none others. And those only because he does not notice the colour of their skin these days. They look like elves to him now.

Agreed, life should be harder for some races, but yelling the same curses at the new drow in town again and again, and then going into the discussion about outcast drow that follow A'zatta *sighs* ... let us just say Kobal has done that. The drow are drow until they prove otherwise. Talk means nothing.

@ Crafters: Do not forget that you are allowed to refuse to deal with such races, or at least charge them 50% above the normal prices!

[Acacea]

I should have said, "except for the dwarves," because the large majority of them are very good about it and are funny doing it as well

[Varka]

hhhmmm... Kobal it seems the drow have gotten under ye skin lad...ye being all manipulated.. hehe
Oi better smack some sense into tha' thick skull again
*finds his maul "Emma" and goes out hunting kobal down*

No, for reall....playing that cliché in Hhlint again and again about drow is not as fun as the first time - I do it now and then though...


Easy solution: Remove Drow (asi and tief as well) from being a player cha. *runs and ducks for cover* aaaahhhh!!!!! just kidding..

[darkstorme]

Well, by rights, Dwarves and Elves should have issues dealing with each other, let alone Drow.  Kell finds it a BIT hard to be anything more than mistrustful, given his own countenance, but you can bet my next character (an elf, just working on her backstory) will be terrified/homicidal (depending on the apparent strength of the drow) upon seeing one.

It may be a cliché, but it's just the truth - Drow and the other mentionned races are, on the whole, evil.  The more "righteous fire" clerics/paladins of Toran ought to be threatening them with arrest on sight, barring a successful persuasion attempt by the Drow in question.

Edit:  Sorry for appearing to pick on Drow - they just appear to be the most common of the (ostensibly) universally reviled player classes, followed by the Tiefers, who are merely distrusted.  And really, I'm picking on everyone who appears willing to treat a drow "even-handedly".  The only characters who can do that in a genuine sense are those whose backstory indicates they are completely naive, and have had no opportunity to hear of the drow/goblins/orcs/etc.

[Faldred]

Well, I'm not sure how it works now that Blood has been defeated, but I had always assumed that the Dragoncalled were just able to recognize others who had been likewise called.  This would explain the ability to set aside, at least to a point, certain racial prejudices for the more "evil" or "mistrusted" races.

[Black Cat]

*grins*
Well I play a goblin, and was greeted with distrust maybe only once. I heard a few 'bad' remarks once or twice and that's about it. I wouldn't mind begin treated with less niceness. I'm a goblin afterall. They live right out the gates of Hlint and attacks every merchant that happen to pass near.

I must say that I wear a hood at all times, so many player/character might not know I'm a goblin. Some even Rp not knowing it or having doubts. And i must say that I prefer that or maybe someone who would RP a reason to call me goblin (a spot on some strange features or maybe smell - though he just took a bath in Corax lake.) than people saying right away 'Look a stinky goblin'. How do they know that?

[darkstorme]

Well, as above, a disguise should (barring a spot check appropriate to the disguise) prevent the revulsion/hate/mistrust that would normally be directed towards a member of one of the circumscribed races.  It is, in fact, just as bad, when a player has gone to lengths to disguise their character, for a player to make a comment about their race (or worse, their name - sorry, Pyyran.)

The practice I'm railing against is unilateral acceptance of those individuals who run about uncovered and undisguised, openly displaying their racial characteristics.

... I had always assumed that the Dragoncalled were just able to recognize others who had been likewise called. This would explain the ability to set aside, at least to a point, certain racial prejudices for the more "evil" or "mistrusted" races.

That would be a great explanation... if it were explicitly stated anywhere.  However, with the new Path of Destiny and whatnot, I find it increasingly unlikely that this is the case.

[Acacea]

No one is summoned any longer. The characters just make their way to Hlint following rumors and fame and all that. Even when they were called, there is no branding mark on their foreheads, though clearly there is something that would set them apart from their fellows. Even if there was a branding mark... who cares? Chanda was called...enough said, right?

The wide acceptance of the undisguised, yes, along with the undisguised's assumption that they are welcomed by NPCs without the AI or scripting to know better...

[EdTheKet]

I had always assumed that the Dragoncalled were just able to recognize others who had been likewise called. This would explain the ability to set aside, at least to a point, certain racial prejudices for the more "evil" or "mistrusted" races.

Nope, you can't see if somebody's dragoncalled or not.

[Filatus]

Suddenly appearing at one of the bindstones looking a bit ghostly, usually is a big hint though.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Thank you for posting this, DS; I know we've ranted together about this on Yahoo enough to hammer out what needed to be said.

I started posting a response to this thread last night, at about two, but it was rather... Rambling.

The simple point is that most PCs don't seem to understand the fact that just because the monster (be it a goblin, orc, drow, or what-have-you) isn't actively trying to eat/slaughter anyone, doesn't make it less the monster it is. The leader of all Drow could walk into Hlint, and, as long as she didn't bear arms and was friendly enough to the adventurers, she'd be welcomed in with open arms!

Let's just ignore the countless times that the Drow have tried sacking Hlint. Let's just ignore the constant raids that the orcs and goblins make on our fair overgrown trading post. Y'know, let's even ignore the fact that the commonfolk would run in terror at the sight of any drow but Cymeran Vrinn in his shiny Az'atta-emblazoned armor.

The Bindstones accept them, so shouldn't we? *COUGH*Chanda*COUGH* (As an aside - I'm impressed with the dedication that player has shown to playing that character; playing a Corathite, especially one that's well-known, OOC, has to be hard.)

There are a very few characters who have backgrounds that would leave them without much reason to revile Drow in particular; Pyyran is one of those, as he's quite simply not from Layonara, originally, and has never had the misfortune to have a really bad series of run-ins with them. Tyeaan, on the other hand, grew up in Hlint, and I'm at least trying to reflect the commoners' attitude towards the nonstandard races.

On that note, though, let's talk about other subraces for a moment.

Aasimar are naturally good-leaning, while Tiefers are natually chaotic-leaning, among PCs. Those two are obvious. But what about others? What about, say, Grey Elves?

Grey Elves are supposed to be brilliant, arrogant, narcissistic, aloof... Everything that your average moon elf is, but moreso. Where are they? I can't say I've noticed any elvish characters acting along those lines. There's certainly not enough disdain for the nonelvish races even among the standard Elves.

What I think is lacking here is an understanding of the dynamics between the races and each other, and the races and the commonfolk.

Dwarves, I think have been gotten pretty spot-on. Humans, well, you can't say much about them unless you want to say EVERYTHING. Halflings like pie, and seem neutral. Gnomes, again, neutral to other races for the most part. Elves don't seem pro-elf enough, though maybe that's just what I'm seeing. Drow... You're reviled and feared by the surfacers, or hated and hunted by them, depending upon thier strength. What budding warrior wouldn't boast to say he had killed a Drow in his seventeenth year? Half-orcs. Here's an interesting group... When I think of half-orcs, I can only think of a few, but, with the exception of Honora, they seem to be considered about the same as orcs, and (refreshingly) hated. Orcs are generally run out of Hlint, while goblins don't seem to have too much trouble, after they show that they're not there to kill anyone, or keep thier features hidden.

Let's not forget the HUGE hatreds between races. Elves hate Drow, and vice versa. Dwarves and Duergar tend to kill each other on sight. Same with the Deep Gnomes and Duergar, and, well... Anything that has mines and Duergar, and typically the same with Drow.

Commoners are totally unaccepting for the purposes of this discussion. They will ALWAYS hate a Drow who isn't CLEARLY on our side (and even then they won't trust him or her), they will ALWAYS revile poorly-disguised Tiefers, and they consider Necromancers the scariest thing in the world. Garent and Talon are commoners, for all intents and purposes. Priests, priestesses, merchants, and the like, are more used to dealing with adventurers than Joe NPC, but the racial ideas are still there.

Always check to see if someone has a hood, or a hat, or anything, and whether or not it would hide that character's face; you'll get clues as to whether or not you can see thier faces by whether or not you see emotes for them. A *smile* generally means you can at least see thier mouth. If you want to smile, but don't want people to see you? Say that the smile's audible in your tone, or somesuch.

We have enough characters running around disguised for various reasons that reacting to a person's race or identity at an inappropriate, metagame-ish time, is just as poor RP as simply accepting a widely known scourge without some compelling reasons.

So... Yeah. Pay some more attention to your race, background, and even profession. How you were raised will affect how you act more than any mental ability score ever would.