Abuse of Power versus Roleplay Logic

[hawklen]

*giggles a bit* I had absolutly no problem with Rhynnie doing that. I actually groaned, thought no fair, then a few seconds later thought that was really good and laughed about it. Then cursed myself, if hawk was there, he might of been able to beat her! (Just kidding)

Remember, its  a DC40 fort check on that wiskey! and I rolled a 2...

[LynnJuniper]

I know next time (if there is one) I wont do this where prizes are involved and if I do Ill do it how Acacea suggested (Just to show off, not to take the prize!), and next time I do this with players (im used to using illusions on quests, not in player driven events) , Ill be sure to make it more clear that these things can easily be thwarted with a few simple tactics.

[Falonthas]

drogo entered cause he thought it would be fun
he wasnt there for gifts or prizes
he got to see some people he hadnt seen in a long time

and i was max hitting my roll for fort against that whiskey the first two times

and not sure why i didnt wobble then
i max at 33 with modifiers and the dc was 40

nobody should get mad
its for fun
and it was

[Chongo]

To halt any would-be-crusaders, my post was nearly simultaneous with Pan's and I was not going after him in the slightest.  I'm not stupid.

I'm done with the forums for a while.  This has not been good for anyone and the level of misinterpretation following such a high level of effort on my end has once again proven that it's better to walk away and forget about it instead of making any sort of effort at bettering the community's education.

[orth]

Are you reading the same thread as I?  I don't see the emotion you're lamenting *scratches head*

[Lalaith Va'lash]

This is about friendly opinions that happen to have varied and now we're figuring out what's right and what's wrong for the benefit of the server.

As a player who has lead many player lead events, including similar competitions and a variety of other things, I'm interested in hearing what people think as well, and will offer my opinion on the topic too.  I wasn't able to attend the particular event spawned this post, but can speak from other experiences.

1) What is the proper way of doing this in the future, what's the team's take on it, and how can we generally improve our playstyle?

I'm not a member of the GM team, but I do feel that if a player is attempting to run an event such as a competition they should be the deciding word in things.  A player, just as a gm would for a quest, puts a lot of time into player run events. In general, (Not at all saying this happened in this case)to have somebody come along and throw a large wrench into the works can be very frustrating.  That said, I think its the also the responsibility of the player running said event to be flexible and fair when it comes to characters RP.  Its a judgment call that if possible I strongly feel should be given to the player who planned the event. Its always another characters choice not to participate in the event afterall.

2) Is it okay to use an overwhelming roll for roleplay in general to turn events?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?

When used responsibly I'd say yes.  But, we also need to keep in mind the enjoyment of the other players around us too.  I also think there needs to be roleplay to go along with it.  For example, if you are trying to persuade my PC, even if you have a +40 persuade check, I'd like to hear a good argument too please.

3) Is it okay to use an overwhelming roll in a contest?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?

Again I think that people need to keep in mind the enjoyment of the others around them and take into consideration the effort the event planner put into it.  I would suggest before doing something like this as a player you should clear it with the event lead first. If they think that it will hinder the enjoyment of others who are participating based on the rules previously outlined, perhaps they will have another suggestion for you to RP the same avenue a little more fairly. But if they don't, I would drop the issue.  There is nothing worse then trying to respond to a ton of people at a busy event.

4) Is it okay to use a 'bluffing' tactic in a contest?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?

I defer back to question 3.  At times this could be seen as creative RP, but if you know you are sure to win because of it (i.e. no way for other players to call you on it), out of respect for the event planner and other contestants definitely ask the event lead first or don't do it.

5) Is it okay to use a guaranteed win 'bluffing' tactic in a contest?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?

Hehe, I see a pattern.  This is pretty much the same as 4 though.  I generally lean towards no on this one.  Unless the players competing and the player running the event are aware and okay with it.

Sometimes its okay, but a line needs to be drawn some place.  That is when I give the chalk to the player running the event.

as an aside:
One of the things those of us at The Leilon/Leringard Arms have been proud of, is our ability to run so much without need of a GM or a GM presence.  So, there won't always be a GM there anyway.  and regardless of that, I still defer to the player running the event, as long as they are being reasonable.  It is there planning time, idea, and event afterall (which players can choose to have their characters be a part of or not).

6) In a contest you can't win fairly to the letter of the intended rules, how far can you go to warp the contest to your own benefit and strengths?  And once again, what should we keep in mind when doing it?

How far? Far enough to keep with the RP your character and perhaps spice up an event, but keep in mind the enjoyment of the players (and the event planner) who are following the rules.  That last thing I would like to see is every player lead competition or event, turned into something it is not.  I'll admit, at times this could be fun, however, when you have eight players following the rules and having a good time, somebody is bound to be sore if there is no warning given, and no way to beat whatever roll is being made.

Okay?  Okay.

okay... Again, just my honest opinions after having the pleasure of running and witnessing many player run events and competitions.  Hope that all made sense, and I didn't repeat myself too much more than necessary

[Witch Hunter]

*giggles a bit* I had absolutly no problem with Rhynnie doing that. I actually groaned, thought no fair, then a few seconds later thought that was really good and laughed about it. Then cursed myself, if hawk was there, he might of been able to beat her! (Just kidding)
 
 Remember, its a DC40 fort check on that wiskey! and I rolled a 2...

 
 
 Let it be known for centuries to come that the only one that chugged down that whiskey was an Elf
 
 Regardless, from my point of view well...
 At first it was annoying, I won't lie, I was thrilled when I got my 20 but it's only a natrual response to such a result, especially when theres a reward involved!
 
 So yes, it was a bit off at first - from my point of view -BACK THEN-.
 But some 10 minutes after that feeling faded away, why? well to begin with the event was a blast regardless and it was much more than just the competition, and heck - even if she didn't do it at best I'd have a flag sitting in my pack
 
 
 But this is my point of view and only reflects how I felt towards it, how it should be dealt with in the future...well, roleplay counters roleplay
 Like Rhynn said - take the bottle and spill it all over her, we all know she's an illusionist!
 
 
 The event was super, the roleplay was super and the adventure was even better (I had a blast there).

[Guardian 452]

Looks to me that most of this thread could have been avoided with better communication up front, unfortunatly the more people trying to send tells behind the scenes durring roleplay REALLY slows things down and then people get more antsy and many times make thinks worse yet! Some times though it has to be done.... or a simple 3 to 10 minute pause turns into a HUGE thread on the forum!

Ceativity should be encouraged!!! I think it was a cool thing to hide that the drink wasnt empty!! But I also thing that should have been instantly followed by that person asking for a check to anyone looking at or handeling that bottle (this is my oppinion as a former GM). A player shouldn't assume that the others know you are an illusionist! or a great at persuasion or intimidation etc... and what your trying to do.

I know a GM will leave things for the other players to figure out... sometimes giving them a bone now and then.... But a player ran event I think people need to do more than assume.


Cool idea IMO, with poor follow thru after the fact.

I hope things arent changed to a point that players loose their creativity.... or all we have left is just another MMO.


2 cents and then some  

G-452

[lonnarin]

When Rhynn, no longer character A I suppose, did her illusion trick I snickered, then proceeded to recieve tell after tell from other people.  I addressed Rhynn, she addressed me, I didn't address the GM, the GM addressed me when I decided to call out 'no fair!'.  I deferred, I corrected, backed off, no biggie, no hurt feelings.  The GM's not in the wrong, he made a call and it's good to go!  

This was a character event and not a GM quest.  As such, as long as it does not violate any hard server rules like muling, pickpocketing, etc, it is the domain of said player running the event, and not the GM.  It's about the same issue of common courtesy as if a GM was running a quest, and suddenly another person popped up and kept telling him how to do things on his own quest.  (no, the DC's too low, no drow would act like that, that's too much treasure, that rogue should be allowed to pick the king's pocket with that roll despite the whole guard watching, etc...)  Of course, Leanthar already expertly addressed this point above, so I shall limit my input to the semantics of spellcraft itself.

An interesting note; any illusions to be cast would have technically been precipitated by the wizard waving their arms and chanting arcane-speak prior to the effects of the illusion being cast.  While NWN is hardcoded not to have any true illusion spells, a substitution spell could have been cast of the same level of the equivalent PnP illusion spell for realism. ie: if one wants to cast a level one illusion, they could cast a lvl 1 spell as a substitution so that other characters have the opportunity to catch the mage blatantly cast an illusion spell in front of them.  Say for example, I walk into a cavern of bandits who are about to attack me, and I waved my arms around screaming "abracadabra nanoo nanoo!" and suddenly vanished.  Do the bandits now logically assume A) that I had just cast an invisibility spell and they should watch out, or B) that I was never there in the first place and they should just go back to their posts?  It's an illusion, though the context in which it is cast ultimately yeilds its detectability.

In this instance, I feel that the lack of substitution led to unwarranted meta-magic.  The illusion could have either been cast prior to the event with nobody watching its casting, it could be cast blatantly so that all could see the waving arms, or the substitution spell could have logically been used with still spell and silent spell modifiers (+2 net spell level).  This is 99% the reason why Farros knows silly spells like Amplify, btw.  

In any case, spellcraft should never be used as a direct measure to produce or resist spell effects, to substitute for the actual casting of a spell, nor should it be used as a method of masking obvious casting.  Spellcraft's primary use is identification of spells being cast; those who don't have any ranks still see the "player x casts a spell" message.  (It also relates to the use of scrolls and some magic items on quests, though these uses are irrelevant to the curent situation)  

The spellcraft skill is intended to represent arcane knowledge, not spell DCs for a saving throw.  The spell DC is calculated by the formula "DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier."  Even giving a specialist's focus feats, this would be far lower than a straight spellcraft check.  Therefore, using spellcraft as a substitution for actual spell DC winds up artificially over-inflating the spellcasting capabilities of a caster.  While there should be application for creativity in using this skill, by no means does a +40 spellcraft automatically convince Broegar that he is a little girl with pink ribbons in her hair should he inevitably fail his will save.

Further, to require that somebody know spellcraft in order to even know if a spell is being cast at all is categorically unfair; NWN does not allow non-spellcasters to even attempt a spellcraft check unless they are spellcasters themselves.  Theoretically, this slippery slope of using spellcraft skill as an end-all means of detection would mean that a mage could walk through Prantz blatantly shooting fireballs at city buildings, and the guards would just have to sit there baffled as to why the city is on fire; they have no spellcraft skill.

I certainly don't think anybody was blatantly trying to cheat anyone, overstep their boundaries or spoil any fun in this instance; just a matter of miscommunication and misinterpretation of the manner in which skills & magic are represented.