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Acacea

IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« on: July 24, 2008, 11:06:14 pm »
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(Yet Another Incredibly Long-Winded Acacea Post)
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Hi. I'm not sure if this will do any good, but for those it might make a difference to, it bears reminding.

There is a big difference between something that is emoted, announced, or mandated to us, and what is spoken by an NPC. Obvious, right? Not always.

You see, there is very little time and manpower available to work on the module. There are many things that are great, many things that could use vast improvement, things that would have benefited from more personality or scripting. That is why write-ups, tidbits, summaries, and server messages exist. They give you a bit more to work with in order to roleplay a place or person properly. All of these show something as it is, as you are expected to perceive them. If a GM's server crashed and he has to resort to emoting that there is a huge, cascading waterfall, it is a bit mean-spirited to say IC, "Didn't someone say there was some kind of falls here? Must have meant to the ants!" or something. We make cracks about it OOC maybe, but IC, you see a waterfall.

NPCs, however, are biased. They have flaws, faults, opinions, and shortcomings. An NPC may say "There is a waterfall two miles ahead," may be quite mistaken, or a liar. He can insist until he is blue in the face, but the DM emotes that there is no waterfall. You don't see one. That's a difference between a server description of what exists, and an opinion given by a biased source.

Another example: In various writings and third person summaries of Mistone, Queen Allurial is written as being much loved by her people. She was by all accounts, benevolent, wise, and graceful. She was one of the Seven Sisters, Lucinda's Chosen, and yet even those with no love for magic came to greatly respect and love her. So she is presented to us.

If a DM, therefore, possesses her and emotes that she speaks with grace and kindness, but the DM his or herself is honestly not that great a typist, you may poke fun OOC. But don't start verses about the Queen's speech impediment - he does the best he can, and can only set the stage for you. Part of the game is being handed a cane and being told OOC "this is a hat, sorry." We ruin the game when we are unable to pretend that it is something other than what is shown. We could use more and better showing in many cases, yes! But in the end, it is our job as players to take what we are given and roleplay it, not tear it apart IC and "refuse to see a hat," simply because it wasn't a perfect representation. We are all guilty of this at some point, but it really takes the better player to bite your tongue and try not to ruin everyone else's immersion for it. We can take it OOC and remind the GM that there are really better ways to call a horse an ox, but leave it OOC.

Your character need not have loved the queen! You may indeed play someone who is not part of the norm. But there should be good reasons for it. If it is stated, under Allurial Mistone flourished, and kept safe, then should we be using the inability to have her involved in everything as a sign of her apathy, poor leadership, etc? Our characters may find fault with her. They may even believe things that are total lies, or have a twisted perception of events. They can spread it! But we, as players, should not be trying to convince other players of it. Our character's different interpretations should be delivered in a way that still represents what we were given as a server description and summary - that this one character has a really weird and messed up view of what was in reality a good and much loved queen.

I try to roleplay my character's general flaunting of authority and cynicism regarding its effectiveness. She still loved Queen Allurial, and might have gone MA Scout, had Milo not quit. It's not because I really had all that much interaction with her - that is how she was presented to me. I could latch onto all the OOC problems that existed in Mistone and go on tirades about how they were all her fault and what a terrible leader she must have been to allow it, but instead a surprising amount of us (surprising considering the amount of chaotic characters we have) still RP a general affection and respect for her, even if our characters are not exactly bending the knee in subservience.

By contrast, Port Hempstead is a mess. As a starting city on our server, it should be one of the best known and represented cities on Layonara. It's not. There are honest reasons for why it never quite made it up to par, but it doesn't change that it's still totally messed up, perception wise. An example of one reason, V3, as most remember, was not intended as a finale or anything, but a start. Its release was very rocky and with a lot of bugs and adjustments, but it was never meant to be the end. It wasn't supposed to stay a certain way. There were big plans, huge ones, remember the first announcement for V3? There was this grand plan about how it would continue on and things would change and all this stuff would happen. V3's initial release was built, not as a perfect representation of everything, but as something that set foundations for more to come. New haks, building tools, environments, these were major. A huge amount of rebuilding was done not for looks, but because of changes to tileset files that required areas that weren't even changing to be rebuilt from scratch or be screwed up.

Unfortunately, because of other projects, the module changed owners again in the middle of new stuff. It's not so much unfortunate because of the person, but rather because whenever that happens, often older things are dropped and new people have new goals. That's fine. More big plans! More grand schemes! Which also fall through, as new module op also leaves. Later, another new dev! Even better areas! Cool new challenges! Changes that start building again on what many of the v3 goals were about, such as lifting the magic level! ...But they're all new, epic based stuff for the most part, with few changes to core things. Fantastic new things, but the fact is, it is seriously unlikely that some place like Hempstead is ever going to have any serious new things to make it cooler or better represented. It's just a question of time and effort and information. Someone working at this stage has to really be pretty passionate about their project in order to keep it going, and that's not so easy with leftovers of other people's stuff.

So, what we have instead are 'server descriptions' and OOC summaries of these places. There are no NPCs claiming glory or justice. No GMs are using guards and leaders to boast about what the places are about, while emoting OOC the truth behind the lie. We are given OOC, unbiased pieces of information to aid us in our roleplay. The city's general ruling is NG. The Silverguard train with blunt weapons to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Deliar is a primary temple, who is CG and about freedom, trade, and luck. There are more guards than just those at the gate. Trent made captain at an young age because of his good heart in a time of darkness.

The port is not the only place with half blood issues, just the only one anyone ever uses for them, making it look far more contrasting and isolated than it is. Fort Vehl is not a haven of freedom and justice, its a pit of squalor. A half-orc is highly unlikely to be murdered in an alley in Hempstead. He might in Vehl. Part of the reason for the temple is fighting back against the nastiness that is all over the place in Vehl, not because it is a shining example of anything. They're there to fight what it is, not celebrate it. Their long struggle with it has jaded some of the clergy into believing criminals deserve "whatever they get," as well...

The port is led by a trade council, headed by the Vaerans, who are also good and in general supposed to be wise with a good head for the economy as well. Not necessarily a part of the description, but something the attentive might note - the Vaerans are not new to Hempstead, nor written for them. Anyone reading the Prunilla writeup can see the Vaeran sisters in the Dragon's Whisper... Harmony, the oldest is the one that was a driving force behind fighting the tyranny and darkness in Port Hempstead; her daughter leads the trade council now. Meadow, the middle one, is rumored to be the chosen of Prunilla, even though she never claims a title. Peace, the youngest, is the head priestess at Castle Mask on Dregar, having got the wanderlust early on. Anyone familiar with the halfling tribes in Mistone can easily recognize that the Vaerans are an entire clan, as well...


There are a lot of interconnecting things floating around. Is everyone expected to know these things? Of course not. That's silly, it's floating everywhere and half the GMs don't notice them, either. None of us is likely to see even a corner of a whole writeup of it until a few fabled handbook releases. But there is a difference in sincerely not knowing, and ignoring the GM telling you that there is a waterfall. If we have read OOC how a place is supposed to be, then we should be trying to RP ways that it meets that, not how it doesn't. Our characters may not like them, may disagree with them, but it should be presented in a way that goes with the props we were given. That's part of the game. Our characters are not living in the 21st century.

Kingdoms are not perfect IG, by any means. But just like we need to break laws and sneak into places with GM help, we don't decide that they have a completely different face than what is given us as a server description. The guards may very well slip up and let something else in perhaps... but we don't decide it happens for us. We don't stand in the middle of Prantz casting spells  because we can. Havoc is encouraged! Rebellion is encouraged! But you have to do it within the realms of the game. You can't say, "I strike him with this spiked cane!" if you have been told it is a feathered hat... nor emote that fat exploiting Froigrin cheated you out of thousands of gold in order to feed her growing hoards of millions. Anyone who has any understanding of what Deliar is about knows better. We have to roleplay the standard in order for the failings to stand out.

Likewise, please, the GMs are severely limited in communication and tools to represent every place perfectly. We have tools of our own that we can use, there is no need to be take everything harshly IC because of OOC circumstances. It is part of our role to help show how the environment is, according to the server, not create huge rifts in perception because of how we decide it is. There are things that completely do not fit, and times when GMs make mistakes - a Silverguard bullying with blades, perhaps, or referring to a queen of Brelin - but a simple tell may determine if it is just an honest mistake, or something intending to be a biased interpretation. Indeed, even the churches are pretty poorly treated in this way - character opinions and arguments are great, but too often tirades are made based on OOC information and opinion, and exist to attack a given OOC statement of the ideal. If they aren't meeting it, take it up out of character and see how the whole fares.

When you see something bad happen in a city announced to you OOC as largely good and fair, if it did indeed happen as the GM intended, then shouldn't it be treated as out of the norm. Shock! Dismay! Rumors of a Rael supporter amidst a city like Port Hempstead should be a huge deal... if you use the props we are given. If you decide your hamster is a dragon regardless of what GMs ask of you though, it's just a lot of confusion and only adds to the problem.

Why don't we help places become what they should be, instead of causing a rift in perception in order to deny what they are? There's no need to be silent about things that don't fit. Make suggestions. Point them out. How many rants have I gone on about how poorly the city is represented according to how it is supposed to be? That doesn't mean I take it IC. My character has met the Vaeran sisters... One of them is even the chosen of Prunilla... She helped destroy the Shadow Thieves... I'm not ruining all of the history and personality just because someone stuck a sign on the lawn. The day someone tells me, "The Vaerans have been forcibly removed from office and the city begins sliding into corruption again," or something, is when I will RP that interpretation, and I will certainly want to know more than that, since such a huge amount of stuff will be wiped out for the sake of it. I'm not going to force it because of accidents, though - I'd rather think of ways to make the inconsistent fit back in.

Otherwise it is like losing Ozlo to a faction mess-up. Or failing to stab Bloodstone in the spine, because when you rolled attack, the server lagged and spewed out 6 rolls - your first was a 20 and your last a 1, and GM decided to take the 1... Your PC uses a custom head and shows up headless, but try as you might to RP that he does in fact have a head, there's always a few people that refuse to acknowledge it IC, even after GM acknowledgment of head... This isn't about one city. Port Hempstead is just one huge part of a larger, core issue - sometimes we are told how a place is, but they just don't support it and come to bat. We can say, OOC, how hard would it have been for you to do X and support this better? Sometimes the answer is, "Very difficult," and sometimes "not very," but it doesn't happen, but either way, we play along. We can bring down empires with our characters, but not as players decide one doesn't exist. If they sometimes don't seem to do a perfect job in representing one because of mechanical limitations and time, we can still pretend - what is added to the module and GMing at this point is largely based on pure personal motivation and stubbornness at this stage in the game, so not everything is ever going to make it. :) It would be nice, but we can do a lot on our own with what we've got.

[/soapbox] :o Long. *Hides.*
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 12:13:20 am »
Acacea +1
 

Link092

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 02:15:52 am »
Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman
Acacea +1


+1 Speech with minor enchantment? :D
 

lonnarin

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 06:02:35 am »
Excellent Post!

On Mechanical Limitations:
Just to chip in on one minor issue of the guard's weapons, there is a huge difference between bludgeoning and nonlethal.  The guards weild warhammers that do 1d8 x3 dmg, which while less bloody than a sword, is still physical damage.  When players asked if they could do subdual damage with a bludgeroning weapon, they were told no.  And now when we ask why the guards killed Balthazar, we're told, no he didn't die, he was just knocked out.  Warhammers are lethal.  Please somebody tell Bjorn that they aren't lethal should we want to see a demonstration.  Or tell that the the double-hammer weilding guards in Prantz.  When we were told after the fact that we were retconning the whole death of Balthazar, that made me think... if he didnt die, hop the bindstone, walk back to get his grave, lost his gold in his pockets, etc... then would Muhk have killed the guards?  Did he get an option to beat them to unconsciousness with the bluntside or handle of his axe?  If we retcon one little quasi-factoid in the chain of events, then as skabot said, we must then retcon every event happening thereafter.  If you retcon one thing, you need to retcon every other related thing down the line, cause and effect, action and reaction.  If a butterly's wings flapping on the other side of the world causes a tornado, and there is no butterfly, then there is no tornado.

On NPC Alignments:
Now on the topic of the guards disposition, there are certainly bad apples in every bunch.  Andy Griffith is a far cry from many cops I've encountered, who try to provoke me into fighting and point guns to my head for having long hair and a beard.  Is this typical of all cops?  Certainly not!  For the most part they're LN-LG and helpful, smile and wave politely.  But just because the FORCE as a whole is LN-LG, it doesn't necessarily mean that not a single cop is LE, NE or any other alignment.  We have some wiggle-room to have corrupt guards on an otherwise decent force.  Not every alignment is uniform for those in uniform.

If we however depict that LG Andy Griffith is the town sheriff, it certainly should raise some eyebrows if we see him show up drunk one day, knock Barney Fife's teeth out, kick Opie in the head and shoot his dog for yapping too much.  If you need a corrupt guard, use another character from the toolset.  Don't suddenly turn the NG guy into a blackguard for the moment.  At the very least Andy should get an alignment shift and a noticable change in him. If that is the case.

So in total agreement to everything that is said.  We must be mindful of mechanical limitations true, but we can't be using these limitations as justification to switch events out as we choose and defy logic.  Once you retcon a timeline of events, all subsequent reactions to the primary event are false.  Once you possess a NG NPC and have him being curt and rude and abusing his authority to people who talk to him, eager to bash people's heads in and threatening to arrest them just for asking questions, he should no longer be viewed as NG.  He certainly acted at best LN on one encounter with Earl, though more akin to LE.  He's the CAPTAIN of the guard, it's his job to represent them!  It's his job to speak to people!  Not to suddenly turn all Mr. Hyde and start with "boy, you annoy me.  I'm ah gonna lock you up fer askin too many questions..."

As for Hempstead's alignment, any city which has a death penalty for tresspassing and sent all the dockworkers out of their rightful homes on a trail of bloody tears is NOT Good in any sense.  I could certainly see such things flying in LE Prantz, where praying in the streets or casting spells gets you locked away for life, or CE Arnax infested with bloodthirsty Demons, or even corruptable Kartharian, but a goodly city with a CG sponsor god Deliar acting like the Spanish Inquisition?  I think not.  Now maybe the city has been corrupted by forces within, maybe the Sisters changed over the years.  But please let's stop pretending that the city is still good.  It's not.
 

Pibemanden

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 07:11:12 am »
I have a much longer answer for this coming at some point, but I do disagree with Hempstead not being good anymore. The thing which is happening isn't anywhere near an inquisition, yes people were probably told to leave their homes. And yes there is death penalty for trespassing, but the fact is that these people, who are killed for trespassing, are not "normal" people.
Yes the pure 100 good family who lived close to the loving halforc who were like Honora and helped them out and cared for the community might be very sad, with good reason, that the half breeds were thrown out. But the ones living next door to the cursing dockworker who always got drunk and who had several bar fights and stuff like that to carry home with him causing trouble every now and then would surely think that living close to a person like that wasn't good for them or their children.
I am not saying that the races banned from Hempstead can't be nice, and hey one of my characters best friends is a dark elf, but that doesn't change that almost everyone except the select few of these races are actually nice and helpful. Yes the town could give them the benefit of doubt and let them in, but they choose not to and told the guards not to let anyone in.
I am sort of guessing the death for trespassing is also due to the limited intelligence of the races in question plus the inability of most of them to pay fines and such. Yes it might seem evil to someone who grew up in a modern world, but if you are used to death penalty for several severe crimes and a general feel of a world that doesn't take care of the weak, well then you wont blink. As it is stated in the alignments death penalty is accepted by good characters.
I do not know what happened in the event in question, I haven't heard of it IG or talked to anyone about it. But, the city of Hempstead wont in my opinion not chase down people who are of a "wrong" race, however they certainly have the right to chaseneseseraly them away from the gates, and dark elves... Well unless there is a very good reason, and no they don't fear Alantha that isn't why she walks there freely, they will kill any dark elf comming within their sight. They are protecting the citizens of the town, not the strangers who after the opinion, and openly posted law (They are not driving some secret we kill everyone we don't like campaign), have no right and no business in town.

Yes I know that it sound evil to people that you shoot trespassers and that you look down on some races. I have no issues with people playing these races or people standing up for them. But anyone who isn't 100% good in her/his heart would have doubts about the intentions of someone of these races.
 

Dorganath

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 08:59:53 am »
Quote from: lonnarin
Excellent Post!

On Mechanical Limitations:
Just to chip in on one minor issue of the guard's weapons, there is a huge difference between bludgeoning and nonlethal.  The guards weild warhammers that do 1d8 x3 dmg, which while less bloody than a sword, is still physical damage.  When players asked if they could do subdual damage with a bludgeroning weapon, they were told no.  And now when we ask why the guards killed Balthazar, we're told, no he didn't die, he was just knocked out.  Warhammers are lethal.  Please somebody tell Bjorn that they aren't lethal should we want to see a demonstration.

Well I thought I explained this the other night, but apparently not, so let me try again.

It is the practice of the Silverguard to carry blunt weapons for the purpose of using subdual force.  It's not a matter of whether the weapons can do lethal damage. Someone's bare hands can do lethal damage.  It's all a matter of where you stop.

In practice, the Silverguard aims to subdue, not kill.  Mechanics, however, can get away from a GM just as easily.  And it is that little clarification that prompted me to talk to you guys the other night.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 09:24:41 am »
Quote
When we were told after the fact that we were retconning the whole death of Balthazar, that made me think... if he didnt die, hop the bindstone, walk back to get his grave, lost his gold in his pockets, etc... then would Muhk have killed the guards? Did he get an option to beat them to unconsciousness with the bluntside or handle of his axe? If we retcon one little quasi-factoid in the chain of events, then as skabot said, we must then retcon every event happening thereafter. If you retcon one thing, you need to retcon every other related thing down the line, cause and effect, action and reaction. If a butterly's wings flapping on the other side of the world causes a tornado, and there is no butterfly, then there is no tornado.


I agree. But here's the trick: Balthazar's death is not retconned. Because of this:

Quote
In practice, the Silverguard aims to subdue, not kill.


In other words, we know, without the guards having to emote, that they will not kill unless given the order to do so (or if one feels like being the "bad apple," but since a GM hasn't denoted that as being the case, it isn't.). See Acacea's post above. OOC, mechanically, Bal died, but IC he did not. To retcon his death would mean that he did die IC and then it was decided afterwards to change that. Such is not the case here.

However, because we don't know that Muhk would choose not to kill the guards, he must emote that he chooses not to do so, or else we must assume they are dead.

Also, a note about the death penalty: simply because it exists does not mean that it is always enforced. That is actually the main difference between Prantz and Hempstead. Both have stringent laws. One follows the law to the "T" while the other, Hempstead, is more interested in doing good, and using the laws to promote good, rather than following them to the letter. So, yes: Hempstead is a good-aligned city.
 

Weeblie

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 10:04:43 am »
Quote from: lonnarin
As for Hempstead's alignment, any city which has a death penalty for tresspassing and sent all the dockworkers out of their rightful homes on a trail of bloody tears is NOT Good in any sense.  I could certainly see such things flying in LE Prantz, where praying in the streets or casting spells gets you locked away for life, or CE Arnax infested with bloodthirsty Demons, or even corruptable Kartharian, but a goodly city with a CG sponsor god Deliar acting like the Spanish Inquisition?  I think not.  Now maybe the city has been corrupted by forces within, maybe the Sisters changed over the years.  But please let's stop pretending that the city is still good.  It's not.


All your characters are evil. Every single of them. Every single PC character that your own character knows are evil too. Definitely! In fact, every single character above... say... level 5 are evil. Just consider the amount of lives they have taken during their course in game. 10,000...? I bet the average is even greater than that!

Surely mass slaughter cannot be considered non-evil, especially if one adds the fact that for almost all of the deaths, no one has ever "seriously" tried to persuade the other villian... erh... victim to lay down their arms first? Or... um... showing even the tiniest feeling of remorse after the 500th kill? I didn't think so either!

Hmmm... maybe it isn't all that easy to define what's good and evil in a fantasy world heavily involving killing in all their forms and shapes.

So please lets stop and pretend that one alone is fully capable of weighting all the factors against each other and decide something is not so. For... has one actually considered what else Hempstead has done for its population (i.e. good/evil isn't defined by a single action) and what the actual good effects of banning the half-non-good races during the nuclear-winter crisis were?
 

Script Wrecked

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 10:25:14 am »
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
In other words, we know, without the guards having to emote...


No, we don't.(1)

In Acacea's post above, the waterfall is explicitly emoted because it is at variance to what is actually depicted.

If a guard is doing non-lethal damage, it would be good form to explicitly make sure everyone knows that.

The game is wysiwyg, that's the whole point of computer games. What is being depicted in the computer screen is the base line; that is what people see; that is what people experience. If you are doing something at variance to that, you should let people know beforehand what is going on.



Regards,

Script Wrecked.



(1) Specifically, but not limited to, the newbie, freshly starting out.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 10:32:12 am »
Quote
you should let people know beforehand what is going on


The "beforehand" is the visible OOC stuff to be read about places/people/ via handbooks and LORE. The "we know" is not necessarily a "we know at this moment" either, but instead a "this information already exists and is persistent, and therefore overrides the action/info of the moment."

Granted, you note that your comment especially applies to the "newbie," and it is better if, to use this situation in example, the guards emote that they use subdual force.

Quote
The game is wysiwyg


Indeed. Hence why this game encompasses much, much more than what is represented IG. So IG is the baseline, yes (though I could even argue against that), but you imply that IG is the only experience and "sight." I disagree. My imagination is most of my game experience. The IG portion only fascilitates pieces of that experience. Such is the case for me, though; perhaps the same is not true of you and others.
 

Dorganath

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 11:33:13 am »
Quote from: Script Wrecked
The game is wysiwyg, that's the whole point of computer games. What is being depicted in the computer screen is the base line; that is what people see; that is what people experience. If you are doing something at variance to that, you should let people know beforehand what is going on.

It is, but as has been said countless times before, we are simply unable to represent absolutely everything in-game that would exist if our characters were "real".  Port Hempstead has more than two gate guards and one captain...by a significant number.  It does not take only 5 minutes to run from one end of the continent to the other.  Boat travel is not instantaneous.  There are halfling tribes in the Spirit Dunes, but I've actually heard someone say "Well I don't see them, so they must not exist" despite being told otherwise. The very long list goes on.

Baseline: Yes

The End of the Line: No

The GM Team does try to maintain consistency, but we're not perfect. As well, sometimes important information is missed in the stream of text that sometimes flies by the window.

I think one point of the original post that's being missed here is...there's a lot of assuming, and those assumptions lead people to fly off at light speed down a path of thought and action that gets out of step with what can/does/should happen.  People seize on the immediately visual and don't bother to find out the rest.  Unfortunately sometimes we need to go back and make corrections and clarifications. It happens, even with the best of efforts. We simply ask that the player base works with us in such matters so that understanding can be maintained.  As well, if something is still ambiguous, just ask.  Don't assume.
 

lonnarin

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 11:46:27 am »
http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/147312-roleplay-aeridin-style.html

Ed says here "Sorry, but dead is dead"  so you can see why I was confused on that particular issue.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2008, 12:31:41 pm »
Ahhh... Ed was referring to those situations that are not GM supervised, and also that was said in the context of the Aeridinite situation. Clearly, you can knock things out instead of killing them. However, without a GM present (such as during a quest), there's no way to "revive" the creature your character "knocked out." Granted, you can overlook mechanics and use imagination to interact with the not-present revived creature, but to say that you knocked out instead of killed the hundred giants you just battled with, that's stretching it. Context.
 

ycleption

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2008, 02:12:13 pm »
To return a bit to the original topic.

To me, roleplaying is about telling a story. I was introduced to roleplaying by people who shared my enjoyment of improv theater, and saw rp through that lens, which I've picked up to a certain extent.
Now, anybody who has done improv before knows the sacred principle, the most fundamental concept of improv is the rule of "yes, and..." Which is to say, take the information you are given and add to it. I think this is a principle that has a broad application to this game. When you are given OOC emoting or background information, accept it as part of your RP, and use it to create the scene that your character is in, make it part of the story you are telling with your character.

When we are told there is an invisible waterfall *smiles as the spray from the falls hits her*

When we are told Port Hempstead is the largest city in the world, and would not allow fully covered people to blithely enter *removes his helmet as he passes the gate, and spots the gleam of fellow adventurers' armor amidst the bustling crowd*

When we are told Vehl is a seedy den *keeps a hand on his sword, but tosses  a few coins to the urchins begging for a true*

When we are told Lor has a lot more guards than normal *slouches nervously, trying to blend in with the crowd and not meeting the guards' eyes*

When we are told Layo is a medieval type world, try to pretend that postmodern concepts would be alien to the general populace.

When we are told that even dwarves and elves and humans have some pretty ugly history with each other, and with the monstrous races even more so, try to pretend like the average party that goes out adventuring together probably gets some funny looks when they come back to the inn after a long day.

When we are told that joe average makes a fraction of what we adventurers spend on our first weapon, try to pretend like the average adventurer gets some funny looks when they wear that weapon to the inn after a long day.

You get the picture... I realize there is a fine line between poor RP because you're reacting only to what's on your screen, and poor RP because you're inventing the improbable or force emoting the masses of npcs. I also realize that there is a lot in this game that has not been well-defined in order to say "yes" so we can RP an "and..." However, I think that there is enough space for a lot of creative RP when we do work with the information that we are given.

And I have to admit, I am not always the best example when it comes to RPing like this; I have a hard time sometimes with RPing by computer, but I'll try to practice what I preach. :-)
 

Script Wrecked

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2008, 03:14:00 pm »
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
The "beforehand" is the visible OOC stuff to be read about places/people/ via handbooks and LORE. The "we know" is not necessarily a "we know at this moment" either, but instead a "this information already exists and is persistent, and therefore overrides the action/info of the moment."


The "beforehand" you are describing does not encapulate the totality of the information required to be given beforehand. It is relying on people having read all of the information, having retained all the information they have read, and that the information they have read is accurate and current. Given this is not the case, this "beforehand" is not a wholely reliable source.

More pertinently, this "beforehand" does not state whether lethal or non-lethal force was actually being used in this particular instance.

The "beforehand" I was refering to was specific and immediate to the situation at hand.

Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
Indeed. Hence why this game encompasses much, much more than what is represented IG. So IG is the baseline, yes (though I could even argue against that), but you imply that IG is the only experience and "sight." I disagree. My imagination is most of my game experience. The IG portion only fascilitates pieces of that experience. Such is the case for me, though; perhaps the same is not true of you and others.


Sorry, perhaps "common baseline", or "common experience" would have been a better turn of phrase. And to clarify, that was not my implication.

But the point I am trying to make still stands; if anyone is wishing to share the experience of the imagination they have, they have to communicate it to the other people involved, otherwise everyone else only has the computer game as their experience (plus the individual effects of their own imaginations).

Quote from: Dorganath
It is, but as has been said countless times before, we are simply unable to represent absolutely everything in-game that would exist if our characters were "real".  Port Hempstead has more than two gate guards and one captain...by a significant number.  It does not take only 5 minutes to run from one end of the continent to the other.  Boat travel is not instantaneous.  There are halfling tribes in the Spirit Dunes, but I've actually heard someone say "Well I don't see them, so they must not exist" despite being told otherwise. The very long list goes on.

Baseline: Yes

The End of the Line: No


Sorry, the point I am trying to make (poorly it seems) is that if something is at variance with what is depicted, that it needs to be communicated, and (to draw from your next point) not assumed. This is the delta between The Baseline and The End Of The Line; otherwise all we have is The Baseline.

Quote from: Dorganath
I think one point of the original post that's being missed here is...there's a lot of assuming, and those assumptions lead people to fly off at light speed down a path of thought and action that gets out of step with what can/does/should happen.  People seize on the immediately visual and don't bother to find out the rest.


If the assumption has been valid in previous cases, then only the person who knows it is not actually valid in this particular instance can rectify the situation.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.
 

Dorganath

Re: IC Opinions vs Server Descriptions - YAILWAP
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 03:24:34 pm »
Quote from: Script Wrecked
If the assumption has been valid in previous cases, then only the person who knows it is not actually valid in this particular instance can rectify the situation.

Valid, or assumed to be valid? ;)

You're right, but GMs don't always know knows what, and what may be ambiguous or confusing to some may be crystal clear to others.  So people should ask and not always assume that in the absence of information to the contrary their current assumptions are valid.

Unfortunately, many assumptions can be clarified quite easily without a GM spelling it out each time for every person.

Again, when there's a problem with communication, it often is a problem on both sides of things.

The important thing, when certainty is not assured, is to ask.
 

 

anything