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Author Topic: If Cha is your dump Stat.....  (Read 3836 times)

Acacea

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2007, 02:19:04 pm »
Likewise to ycleption I think a widget isn't really an answer - I envision it being used and having other characters decide my low cha is ugliness or foul smell, or that her high charisma is perfection in form or something and leaving most just unsure of how to react - knowing that they're supposed to be influenced somehow by this mysterious number but if it's not played, not knowing how exactly. My characters' strengths and flaws are mine to make, not someone else's! :P I just need to have the numbers to back up what I envision.

As far as the relationship between ability-based skills and an ability score's effect on them...I hate how it works. :) It really bugs me that a character with 4 dex will end up with a whole -3 to a maxed tumble. Sorry, you can barely walk without hitting yourself in the head with your foot, but you can bend and tumble and whirl away from any blow that strikes you? Come on...just put some points in dex.

Likewise a 6 charisma with maxed diplomacy skills... There's a reason the low charisma is there, and it's not because "I really have a high one but don't choose to use it right now," in my opinion, heh. I also know everything, I just am choosing not to share it all with you! I don't think it should require the ability score to put points in it, I just think that the "ability modifier" is pretty weak in the long run, whether positive or negative.

*stop posting now...* Whoops...

As an edit after re-reading some previous posts, I just wanted to add that I don't feel this thread was created in an attempt to force any form of roleplay or lock anyone into a police state; rather, it is just reminding others to work your numbers into your character concept, which is something most of us do already. If you already do, then what's the worry? ;) However, there are a few that don't bother making the numbers match what they put forth, which is, yes, kind of annoying to those that do roleplay their attributes... which is what inspired this reminder. :P
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 02:22:07 pm »
I didn't decide all time was spent on the server bashing, it was just an example...

And it's fine to ask, but really, CHA is different for everyone really. I don't think I'd feel right pointing at someone and saying "You're abusing your use of CHA" when beauty is in the eye of the beholder and personality is the drawback and not the looks.

In other words, CHA just feels too open...I'll just leave it an open playing field like I think NWN meant it to be and hope they're policing themselves and balancing it out somehow, cause I don't have the powers to know or care to.
 

Acacea

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2007, 02:28:18 pm »
Hehe well chances are if they're written up as the stunning elf that shamelessly wraps all the men around her finger to get her way, but has a 6 cha, that's a good indication and is the point of the post :P Most things are interpretive, no one is trying to say that there are not many different aspects to the ability, simply reminding everyone to balance them out. Just like anything else, really. There are many different types of intelligence, as well. But if you are a genius with languages and so-so with everything else, you don't give yourself an 8 INT because "I have a weakness with math."
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 02:34:33 pm »
*giggle*
Okay, thanks for spelling it out for me. No sarcasm, that's sincerity. I don't think I've seen much of that though, really...That's sort of why I assumed it was a given and was arguing more of the blurry 10-12 CHA areas. But yeah, if it's seriously that low...

Would anyone actually do that? o.0

Whole point I was arguing against in the end though, do we really have to make changes on the actual game for CHA? (widgets etc?) For that aspect, I felt nothing should be done... **shrug**
 

Faldred

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 02:35:29 pm »
Quote from: ycleption
A crowd in a tavern and a gathering of diplomats probably react very differently to the same "combination of physical appearance, force of personality, leadership skill, smooth talking, and apparent moral authority." In some specific places and situations, a low charisma character might even have a social advantage over a higher charisma character.

If you play your character's abilities correctly, the reactions you get in any given situation should be more genuine.  Two folks with an identical Charisma score, but each having a different weighting of those five factors should evoke different reactions to the same situation.
 

DMOE

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2007, 02:38:50 pm »
Well for those of us who do play our Cha properly...we sometimes don't get into parties etc because of how we RP the Cha of our characters.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but as we DO know that a 10 Stat is average then someone describing themselves as a highly beautiful, people person with a below 10 Cha is pretty much abusing the system.  People wouldn't describe themselves as strong with a Str 10 or below.

Cha is only to open if people don't bother to RP it, IMHO.

You do have the power to know if people make the effort to RP it correctly...We're an RP server so people should be making the effort..again IMHO

As Acacea said in her edit....

"As an edit after re-reading some previous posts, I just wanted to add that I don't feel this thread was created in an attempt to force any form of roleplay or lock anyone into a police state; rather, it is just reminding others to work your numbers into your character concept, which is something most of us do already. If you already do, then what's the worry? However, there are a few that don't bother making the numbers match what they put forth, which is, yes, kind of annoying to those that do roleplay their attributes... which is what inspired this reminder. :P"
 

ycleption

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2007, 03:05:48 pm »
Quote from: Faldred
Two folks with an identical Charisma score, but each having a different weighting of those five factors should evoke different reactions to the same situation.


Yes, that's true...

I guess my point is just that while people should roleplay their attributes, in a multi player environment a sufficiently complex character will often evoke reactions that may not be suggested by their attributes.
For example, my druid has a charisma of 8... I'd like to think I roleplay that well; to most people (excepting most other druids and misties) she's rude, brusque, and tactless. She sarcastically sneers, smirks, and scoffs with regularity. Yet, somehow, she often finds herself in leadership roles, I think because many characters don't like to challenge her outspokenness. It's honestly surprised me how accepting people are of her behavior.

Again, I agree whole-heartedly with the initial post, but I think that there is some flexibility that needs to be kept in mind. Requesting that people think about their stats when they create their characters is entirely reasonable, and I wouldn't even object to requiring explanations of how players intend to portray their stats in character submissions. I do however, strongly object to in game mechanisms to evaluate other players stats, because I think we should react to other characters on the basis of HOW they roleplay their stats, not what the exact number is.
 

LynnJuniper

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2007, 03:26:06 pm »
Rhynn -- Total CHA (Buffed/Items) 21 -- She's mean sometimes but persuasive and very very pretty. Sometimes I feel like people can't help but be drawn to her even though they may want to kill her sometimes. Its all intentional. I still think high CHA characters can (and need to) have character flaws that would make others not like them. Rhynn for example, has appeal even if its in the eye of the Beholder (or Squishy)

Ya'asar -- Here's my CHA 8 Character. Still handsome, however he has 0 people skills. He's convicted but he is completley unable to express himself properly without letting the haughty arrogance of the grey elf pour through

Eyafares -- CHA -- Sorceress (Scaling). Shes an enchantress. I believe firmly that enchantresses and illusionists should have CHA as an important stat just as I believe DEX would be important for Evokers and Wisdom for Diviners. That said she's manipulative in different and more magical ways then Rhynn. She also has a few things to cover up with the much needed CHA.
 

MJZ

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2007, 04:42:33 pm »
Quote from: Kindo
I personally go almost entirely for personal strength and social skills when I think about Charisma as a character attribute. ... I think Charisma as a social stat, rather than physical appearance stat, is much more interesting, and thus, I play it like that. Attractiveness through words and character, rather than flesh, is the way to go.

I agree with you here very much. Your behaviour, manner of speaking, the way you carry yourself and the way you move is a *huge* influence on whether you're deemed attractive, anyways. I don't think CHA is THE stat for appearances - after all, a fellow with a decent STR stat is well-built and therefore likely to come off as attractive in that respect, a lady with high DEX is going to be very graceful and hence come off attractive that way, etc. Like Kindo mentioned, different people have different taste, so it's a bit odd to think one stat should govern Physical attractiveness for all people of all races and personalities.

However! Like I mentioned, your social skills *are* a pretty big part of how you are perceived. Someone technically less physically "attractive" but with a far greater knowledge of the human (elven/dwarven/halfling/orcish/etc..) psyche is going to know how to flirt and get attention through a high CHA stat much more successfully than another born with fairer features, who say laughs like a horse, belches frequently and loudly at meals, and puts their foot in their mouth whenever they open it (ie CHA 8 ).

I wouldn't attribute attractiveness and personal magnetism entirely to physical appearance, so I don't feel CHA is directly tied to appearance. I basically agree with Faldred's description of CHA - and I feel this is going to have implications as to your perceived attractiveness, even if you're not to be considered a beauty queen/king by most.

I feel these sorts of things are best to be handled by character descriptions. Ie, if you feel your character is average-looking but has a padded CHA stat, "despite his rather plain appearance, something in this man's eyes and the manner in which his smile spreads across his face seems to magnetize you" or whatever. Likewise for if CHA is your dump stat, but you still feel your character is on the good-looking side of things.

That said, I have to add: it aggravates me that people would write elaborate descriptions of their character's beauty and grace, if they have 6-8 CHA. Witch and I had a bit of a rant about this a while ago - even though I don't think the two are completely tied together, let's be reasonable. How can you be a paragon of beauty with a below average CHA? If you've ever met someone who was technically very attractive but had absolutely no social skills, was highly stupid or insensitive or abrasive or arrogant or what have you, they don't seem attractive the next time you meet them. *Shrugs*

Ariel - 19 unbuffed, 21 total CHA. Persuasive? If she wants to be, but you have to consider you character. Just because you have a high CHA, doesn't mean you're uber-manipulative. Pretty? Well, without dwelling on it in the description and without inputting references to it specifically during RP, she comes off as attractive to people she meets. How? I dunno, I guess I manage to convey it without being blatant about it. At level 9 she's got one person eternally devoted to her, one person who thinks she is the voice of The Force that runs through the universe, one person who never knew kindness in love with her... well, those things are pretty well directly related to the stat, I think.

I think it boils down to what you use your CHA stat for. Eg Ariel's alignment title being "reconciler," I think that's a fair assessment of what she uses her CHA for. Someone with a manipulative bent is going to be using their skills in that direction, a paladin is going to be using their skills for leadership, etc. CHA is a lot more flexible I think b/c it depends on your personality. If you're physically strong, you're just physically strong. You can't be strong in a "specific" way - about the only variation there is if you're a dexterous fighter who uses precision instead of great force. Same with the other stats - you can't really be "healthy" and "tough" in a certain way, CON is pretty much just CON, DEX is pretty much just DEX. CHA's a little trickier, is all.
 

Acacea

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2007, 05:08:29 pm »
MJZ, I think that's pretty much where most people are on this thread, despite the comments on whether it governs physical attraction or not. None of us that I know of think Charisma = Hot, and gladly factor in many other things both into 'appearance' and 'attraction,' but as the original post said, it's not completely separate either - what's up with the gorgeous chicks with the winning smiles wooing all the men with 8 charisma? "Oh yes I'm just a little flirt that gets all the boys sending me flowers!" *Rolls eyes* :P

As for being trickier, INT and WIS are also tricky in similar ways :) The mental stats are harder to 'fake' than the physical ones for most of us! The page Faldred links to is a great sticky, though.
 

Honora

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2007, 06:05:30 pm »
And one more wrinkle; you can be a CHA 28 human that makes Halle Berry look like Rosanne Barr, and chances are an elf still won't find you pretty.  Or persuasive.

Let's not forget the racial element :).  What good is smooth, peach-blush skin if there's no beard for the dwarves?  Or sun-kissed golden hair to your waist, if it's a gnome?
 

Pseudonym

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2007, 06:35:06 pm »
I'm not normally a huge fan of spammed attribute checks and skill rolls for very little purpose but I do find charisma to be a useful one to throw out there every now and again, esp as Acacea said when you first meet someone.

My method with my main PC is *flashes his most winning smile* *cha check* 1d20+0. Takes all of two seconds and just (hopefully) lets people know his most winning smile is still not that winning! As such, although he is played as flirtatious (sure, it's a RP stretch for me!) most of the women he knows have an appropriate lack of awe and simpering towards the poor guy!
 

Gulnyr

Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2007, 06:44:24 pm »
Generally, race has little to do with it.  The rules are set up to account for a world of multiple races that interact with each other fairly regularly.  There are occasional exceptions (like Elves on Voltrex), but generally a high-Charisma persuasive character is very charismatic and persuasive regardless of race.
 

magnusarin

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    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #33 on: April 26, 2007, 06:55:28 pm »
    When talking about any stat, whether it be Cha, Str or Dex, we're talking about raw, natural ability. Sam the Orc is naturally better at swinging an ax than Bob the halfling. That doesn't mean Bob can't train himself through feats and attribute points to one day be better with an ax than Sam. You can be the most intelligent character in the world, but if you choose fighter over wizard in PnP you're often not going to seem that way because you don't have alot of intelligence based skills as a fighter and a mage has tons.

    A charisma score is just the natural ability of a character to sway other people to his own point of view. Doesn't mean he's being deceptive or manipulative, people just naturally tend to see where he's coming from or want to be in his good favor. Whether it's out of fear, attraction or likabilty is up to the player who makes him. Again, that character doesn't ever have to put a point in diplomacy or intimidate to capitalize on this natural ability. Given time another character could start to garner that same respect even though they aren't naturally persuasive people. You can learn these things. In real life people take speech classes, work on grooming, and read books on rhetoric and become amazingly persuasive.

    Unforunately, Charisma is the hardest stat to use because except for Intimidate, there's no real way to effect another PC. In PnP a character never has to believe a high bluff check if they feel their character wouldn't and you don't have to trust someone despite a high diplomacy. I personally always take these into account, but if a known evil person would come up to my paladin it doesn't matter how high these checks are, my paladin isn't going to trust him. Hell, look at presidents. Some people love Bill Clinton and thought he was a very charsimatic leader. Others hate him and found him to be a snake. In the case of charisma it really comes down to trusting players to RP it as best they see fit and as another character, judging characters on what the other player gives you to work off of. It's the least fleshed out of all stats.
     

    LightlyFrosted

    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #34 on: April 26, 2007, 07:04:21 pm »
    Charisma is tricky.  Looking at some of the associated skills (at least in the PnP), one finds Diplomacy (which suggests at the very least, some iteration of people skills), but simultaneously Intimidation, Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Use Magic Device - the list goes on.  Analyzing them, it seems like a thorough knowledge of psychology is as important to a high-charisma character as physical beauty.

    Being attractive MIGHT help you with diplomacy.  If.. the people you are trying to persuade are attracted to you, that is.  And heck, being attractive might even be a detriment - who says that the fairly unattractive person you're trying to persuade isn't a little resentful?  Put together with bluff (with which it is too often used interchangably), this suggests that these charisma-based skills are grounded in knowing which buttons to push in someone's mind, to get a desired reaction - not NECESSARILY making them like you, just getting them to believe or do what you want them to.

    Having a memorable appearance may in fact be detrimental to a disguise check.  Depending on the use of the disguise check (sneaking around, for example), being personable might not even come into the factor.  Still, without knowing how people act and react, be it instinctive or trained, a disguise would have an extremely low effectiveness.

    Intimidation isn't about being strong and being able to hurt someone.  Heavens knows Layo has hundreds of characters who, although fairly lithe, are dangerous enough that being bigger or stronger than them just makes it easier for them to gut you like a trout.  Again, this is a persuasive skill.  You don't need to be obviously able to hurt someone - you just need to convince them that you're capable - and willing to do so.

    Performance CAN be aided or abetted by being beautiful, but also involves a fair amount of technical skill, as well as a rapport with the audience to which one is performing.  Were it PURELY technical skill, it might better fit into dexterity - after all, the nimble movements that are involved in playing an intstrument are paramount to a technical performance - or intelligence, while the oratory components might be absorbed by diplomacy...  were it not for the rapport required with one's audience.  If one is going to try to tell one's captors jokes, in order to get out of a tight bind... well, don't tell the 'fat sailor' jokes to the group of moderately obsese naval officers who just press-ganged you.

    I could go on.  The point is, Charisma is varied...  but if you want to reliably get the response you desire from others, it's fairly important.  While I'm not entirely sure where physical beauty factors in, I'd say that Charisma IS a talent you can 'turn on or turn off'....  but you need to have it in order to turn it off.
     

    miltonyorkcastle

    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #35 on: April 26, 2007, 07:31:18 pm »
    As a note, the gist of my ramblings is not that an ability score equals "do I choose to use my ability score." I'm sorry it was read that way. The point is actually that your ability scores align with your natural tendencies. They correlate, but they are not equal. It's a matter of causality.

    It's not because you have a high strength that you prefer to use strength to accomplish things, rather, it's because you prefer to use strength that you have a high strength.

    I fear the issue is in how I presented one of my statements:

    "Kali has a high charisma, so she uses a winning smile and her stunning red hair to get what she wants."

    That sentence should read, "Kali uses a winning smile and her stunning red hair to get what she wants, so she has a high charisma."

    Notice that the ability score depends on motivations, because you don't practice at something unles you're motivated, and you don't get better at something unless you practice (setting aside any "natural" ability). Motivation ultimately begats ability. When you're creating a character, if you think about what motivates them, you should be able to derive what their ability scores will be, and perhaps even what their class will be. Of course, you can work backwards, choosing to assign stats and class and then develop a personality to align with the ability scores. Still, are the ability scores causing (or reflecting, as Acacea suggested I was saying) the personality or is the personality causing the development of the ability scores?

    This is the real question I was attempting to answer. I am of the opinion that motivation (personality, desire) determines ability. Ability scores are not simply "Natural Ability." I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that for the simple fact that natural ability doesn't account for the action present in a person's life- action that is determined by motivations. And many come at the process of role playing and developing a character by acting as though the abilities determine the motivations. I think this is literally backwards.

    That's my overall schema for ability scores in general. Charisma falls under this as well, but as has been said, it's a trickier stat. Unlike the other ability scores, Charisma seems to border between being a physical stat and a mental stat. I (and others, though in different ways) suggest it is not a physical stat, but solely a mental stat. I explain this through my overall understanding of ability scores. Like the other ability scores, Charisma (or perhaps, to be more explicit, the level of Charisma) represents the practice (plus natural ability) in charismatic things (using beauty or rhetoric to persuade), which itself represents the motivation to practice charismatic things. Ultimately that means a high charisma is derived (but not equal to)from a character's high motivation to pursue charismatic things.

    Now, to respond to the example of the Cha 8 fellow who thinks he can get along with his looks and/or personality but then ends up making a fool of himself. For one, recall that sometimes people try things they don't usually prefer to use because they think (whether of high or low int/wis) their normal method won't work. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes you and I know they will fail, but the character is unaware, as has been suggested. However, that doesn't change the prior motivational tendencies. So that brings up the whole question of, what happens if a character's motivations change?

    If a character's motivations change, the ability changes (and possible alignment/class changes) don't happen overnight. If, the Cha 8 fellow who used to rely more on his tougness than his charisma to get along, decides for whatever reason he now prefers to use "force of personality" to get by, then it will be (or, at least, should be) represented by an increase in his Charisma score. Now, that also means that everyone around him, for quite some time as he practices, will consider him quite foolish in his feeble attempts at persuasion through charismatic means. But eventually, assuming his motivation holds, the practice will pay off and his ability to persuade using charismatic skills will increase. In other words, his Charisma will increase.

    On another note, how skills relate to the ability scores in DnD work fine until you get to high/epic levels. Then it gets wonky. Really, I think there should be rank caps on skills based on the correlating ability scores. To use the tumble example, a Dex of 4 might mean you can never get more than 8 ranks in tumble. A dex of 14 means you can never get more than 28 ranks in tumble, etc. That is a simple 1:2 ratio, but you get the picture. Because even someone that is extremely clumsy can roll on the ground. But, like has been said, they can't exactly do flips and arial moves.
     

    Acacea

    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #36 on: April 26, 2007, 07:47:20 pm »
    I agree that I wouldn't ban a skill or anything but a cap is more what I was talking about, as 4 DEX = -3 tumble seems well, outrageous :P

    I didn't misunderstand the motivation causing ability scores part, and I don't think anyone disagrees that one becomes better at something because one trains it it? Or that one trains it it because one desires to be better in it. To summarize it as "if one desires it one gets it" is a little bit broad for me but yes, if our characters wish to do something in a certain way they will likely train in order to better themselves... higher scores come with practice, of course. It's all words and doesn't actually make a difference until I come against what is basically the same issue I have with the DEX example.

    A 6 CHA character with maxed out persuade (equal to a mere minus two to the skill in the long run) making perfect sense because he does not want to influence anyone seems kind of off for me. Clearly if he has a maxed out persuade and other social skills, he has the ability to exert his opinions, directions, whatever, over someone else, and very well at that. The fact that he simply does not choose to doesn't seem to equate with a low ability score for me, though.

    I think the confusion came in my wording, not yours - when I said "not a 'do I choose to use my ability score'" I did not mean "should I choose to use my stat number or not?" but rather, "I may be great at any number of things but because I choose not to use them I do not have the ability score to reflect that capability." If that makes any sense. :)
     

    miltonyorkcastle

    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #37 on: April 26, 2007, 08:01:37 pm »
    Ahh.

    Yes. I am in agreement (obviously) about such issues as having extraordinary skills without the attributes to match.

    Though, I do have to point out that a problem with our preference for, say skill caps, comes against issues in that a person may be inherently shy (low charisma) but be forced as a child (especially in the case of royalty) to learn the technical aspects of the art of persuasion. So, this person might actually know how to persuade someone with rhetoric in so far as it's possible for them to be exceptional at it, but still prefer never to speak in public. In this case, it's not a matter of self motivations leading to ability/skill, but outside motivations, which can be just as potent and certainly complicates things like skill level and ability scores, especially where mental skills/abilities are involved. The physical stuff seems a bit more straight foreward (It's impossible to be feeble yet be able to swim for miles). but still, even that has issues, since it's possible for a person with slowfingers to be a good pickpocket. I guess the point is that none of it is truely straight foreward and requires some measure of interpretation, which everyone in this thread seems to agree on. My hope (and I think the hope of the originator of this thread) is that those interpretatons are at least backed up by thoughful reflection and not simply a matter of, "Ehh, who needs charisma?" *dump*
     

    Acacea

    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #38 on: April 26, 2007, 08:20:54 pm »
    As mentioned before though, it has several aspects that balance each other out. :) A person who is a little slow with many of the schools of logic, a below average intelligence with his grasp on them, but is well trained and just generally brilliant with another would not have an 8 intelligence despite having below average in other things - it would be offset by what he IS intelligent with. Likewise with charisma, right? A high ability in one facet but low one in several others sort of 'averaging out.'

    And yeah our discussion on it doesn't really have much to do with the thread, since whichever perception you prefer clearly thought is being put into it, which is all that is asked for! *Snickers*
     

    Pseudonym

    Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
    « Reply #39 on: April 26, 2007, 08:48:22 pm »
    Quote from: DMOE
    We have no comeliness Stat in the NWN nights engine....


    You're showing your age DMOE .. there hasn't been a comeliness stat since first edition DnD!!!

    *suddenly realises that by pointing this out he also reveals that he is old enough to remember 1st edition rules ... runs away*
     

     

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