If Cha is your dump Stat.....

[DMOE]

You're showing your age DMOE .. there hasn't been a comeliness stat since first edition DnD!!!

*suddenly realises that by pointing this out he also reveals that he is old enough to remember 1st edition rules ... runs away*

I've never played first edition DnD.....In fact Nibor told me about the comeliness stat on IRC so all I'm really showing is Nibor's age *grins and nods sagely*

[Fatherchaos]

Actually, comliness made a come back in hackmaster, aka "4th edition DND" and I believe one of the suppliments, combat something or another, that split stats into multiple abilities also reintroduced comliness as a substat of charisma.

[Pseudonym]

I've never played first edition DnD.....In fact Nibor told me about the comeliness stat on IRC so all I'm really showing is Nibor's age *grins and nods sagely*

Ummmmmm, yeah, Nibor told me about it too. Yeah, that's it. Nibor told me. I didn't know what he was talking about ... that old dude. I said yeah Nibor, that sounds wickety-wickety wack and then I grabbed my skateboard. First edition? Huh?

*shifty look*

[darkstorme]

A certain d20 expansion whose name will not be mentioned here proposed dividing Charisma into Charisma (which now was mainly devoted to personal magnetism and force or personality) and Appearance (APP), which was physical beauty, with a corresponding increase to the number of starting points one could work with.

I think that this, or the old comeliness stat, would be the ideal solution to debates such as these - but the engine, flexible though it may be, does not agree, so that's that on a NWN basis.  A crucial example of why the separation would make sense, however, has stuck with me:  a half-orc, no matter how genteel his manners, would not be invited into a high-society ball if his face were horribly and ritually scarred and he were missing an eye.  Conversely, if all that were left of his orcish heritage was a brutality of personality, an impressive build and a slight skin tone change, he'd have a much better chance.  The effective CHA (combined stat) doesn't change, but the balance between APP and CHA (divided stat), does.

Again, it's not something that can be applied here, but I liked the system, and felt it worth mentioning.

Also, Pseudonym - "wickety-wicket wack"?

[Nibor21]

*sulks*

[kuchida]

edited because i'm going to stop expressing opionions here..

[Acacea]

Meh, I can't consider Luck as part of an attribute, because you can't practice luck. Some people are lucky, some are not, regardless of charisma - but a lucky person may attract others because of it. Just like a lot of wealth may attract others, eh? Or some other thing, whether material or not.

I mean another person may be attractive because he's -un-lucky. You know? If he is charismatically unlucky. We know that character, the one where just EVERYthing seems to go wrong for, is a walking disaster, but no one can help but love him and continue to follow him into disaster time and time again?

I would never give a charisma bonus to luck, because it makes little sense to me, but that's just me.

Edit - And yes 10 is average, but I don't think anyone has implied otherwise - it likely just seems that way because it was used several times as "10 or below," and the original post was reminding not the players of average people but rather the ones describing far above average ones, with only an average or below charisma. Ie none of us think 10 is repulsive, but why describe your character as alluring, confident appearing, stunning in visual terms, and can wrap any man around her finger - if she is only average or below? Hope that clarified the way the number was used in the thread.

[MJZ]

I said yeah Nibor, that sounds wickety-wickety wack and then I grabbed my skateboard.

Sounds like something Michelangelo would say from "Turtles in Time" ....wait a minute...

[HooD!uM]

i bet ppl would stop dumpin on CHA if it affected how much xp or gold u got from npc/DM shop rewards

[SteveMaurer]

The most important thing to remember is to roleplay your attributes!  If you have a low Charisma, play a low Charisma.

All other things being equal, you are correct.  If you are playing a pretty elf with an 8 CHA, that elf should be played as off-putting.

But on the other hand, I don't feel the particular need to roleplay Rottie gaining a bad reaction roll - not when the first thing most PCs do when they see him for the first time is to draw their weapon.   Sometimes a low CHA really is only physical.

[merlin34baseball]

Not that 10 is a low Charisma score, but instead of being ugly Chaynce is just obnoxious... I think Charisma can be either physical OR other things that make people act different to you. In my mind its how people precieve you. I work in retail, and some beautiful women come in, then... they open their mouths and I wouldn't give them the time of day because of how their attitude is. So it's more than looks for sure!

[Xaltotun]

I agree completely with merlin34baseball.

Charisma, in-game as well as real-life, is the name given to people who have that certain je ne sais quoi.

They can be unattractive, but very charismatic; they can be stunningly attractive, but not at all charismatic, or even likeable.

As merlin34baseball said, sometimes when they open their mouths and speak...

[Dun'Raven]

*Nods in agreement*

Charisma tends to involve all the senses rather than just appearance - even though a normal human takes much of their info. from what they see.

There are many ways a person can be unappealing or low in charisma (or high) and a few simple thoughts that come to mind include :-

Body odour, Irritating voice, annoying or uncivilised habits such as nose-picking or knuckle craking or rolling eyes etc etc.

So much more to a person than the obvioud and indeed, it is amazing how much we take in about someone but process it unconsciously and automatically thus we rarely notice it and just find them "charismatic" or having the "X Factor" or "Je ne se quais" or whatnot.

[Patient_Ox]

I just use this for charisma, I think it's pretty accurate.

Charisma:
6-7: repulsive, ugly, very suspicious, very rude, unapproachable, frightening
8-9: unattractive, reserved, gruff, rude, suspicious, fawning, nondescript, unsettling, stuttering, lacking confidence
10-11: average appeal, slightly self-assured, averagely approachable, somewhat personable, average looks
12-13: above average appeal, self-assured, above average looks, popular
14-15: appealing, confident, attractive, personable, popular, outlined personality
16-17: very appealing, very attractive, confident, very popular, striking, magnetic personality


And.. If you have 6-9 CHA, I think people should have a lengthy description explaining WHY they are that terrible to be around.

[LightlyFrosted]

The guide that Patient Ox just posted actually seems to be a fair summation.  At that level of CHA, you don't need to have ALL of those things - but one or two should be prominent.  Similarly, if you find that your character is much higher in one regard than their charisma implies - say, someone with a charisma of eight or so who's the smoothest talker in all the land - there needs to be some real consideration about perhaps adopting attributes from a lower CHA rating than you have.  The stat is an average of your ability to influence people; if you're stronger than you should be in one regard, chances are you're off-putting in another way.

In the end, I think the point needs to be that in an RP-intensive server like Layonara, there's really no such thing as a 'dump stat'.  There's no such thing as a free lunch, and pulling points from Charisma is no exception; you aren't the most intellectual brain around if your intelligence is six, no matter what you the player are like, and you aren't going to be sweeping all the girls off their feet with a wink and a wave if your Charisma is below ten - or realistically, below twelve.  Of course, you may not realise that you're so unpersonable - self-assuredness in skills or abilities you don't actually possess can certainly be off-putting - but if you're going to play yourself as smooth, it doesn't hurt to actually be smooth.

As a final note, if you're going to try to bluff your way into a heavily-armed encampment, it might help to have someone who's actually trained themselves in bluffing.. or persuading.. or has a charisma of greater than 8...

[Patient_Ox]

The guide that Patient Ox just posted actually seems to be a fair summation.  At that level of CHA, you don't need to have ALL of those things - but one or two should be prominent.

Yes, that is exactly how the guide is meant to be used. Glad you caught on to that.

[miltonyorkcastle]

repulsive, ugly, very suspicious, very rude, unapproachable, frightening

Only one or two? Cripes. I try to play Steel as all of those things, heh. Well, maybe not ugly, if you don't mind cobalt skin, scars, and pointy teeth.

[lonnarin]

Let's see.  Charisma is either my drop-stat or my main one.  According to each character, I'll list their mental stats alongside charisma.

Farros: 8 wis, 16 int, 22 cha
- Sort of a social blending, confident guy.  He tries to appease everybody all the time, compliment deity or alignment enemies and be entertaining.  Of course his low wisdom makes him seem a tad crazed and fumbling many social norms.  He just looks good doing it.  He has leadership skills, which only scare the sane further.  He is also very well skilled socially, which makes him fairly manipulative and well-spoken... except when his player entity has been drinking.  He is also very strange and frightening, wearing an executioner's mask with a tux and singing songs of doom with a macabre sense of humor... that is to represent his skald class a tiefling race.

Modern Equivalent: Johnny Depp, Voltaire (the band), Deadpool, Alice Cooper, Richard O'Brian


Annie: 20 cha, 8 wis, 12 int

Super cutesy, pretty little brownie in a sun dress.  Wanders from person to person talking their ear off, offering them ale and pie.  Her alignment prevents her from willingly mingling with overtly evil people, though she will still give them pie and pray for them.  Courtesy, love, understanding.  She is a bit naive in her pacifistic ideals, and often scold paladins for being "mean" to evil people.

Modern Equivalent: Kitty Foreman, Little Orphan Annie, your favorite aunt who always leaves big wet lipstick marks on your cheek at reunions


and now, the drop-stats!

Kurn: 6 cha, 8 wis, 14 int

While he seems to at least grasp complex subjects, his simplistic focus on violence and greed make him a very difficult dwarf to be around.  Often insults even his closest friends as a matter of social interaction.  Seems oblivious to the feelings of others; rather sociopathic.  Hygeine is a foreign concept to him as he's often walking around reeking of bad cabbage and covered in monster bits.  If he wasn't so useful in battle as a merc, he'd probably be hunted down by now.  He is very prone to outbursts of rage and violence.

Mondern Equivalent: Scarface, Blackbeard the Pirate, Yosemite Sam, Sabertooth


Grovel: 6 cha, 14 int, 20 wis

This one is very filthy and feral, often eating dead monsters and humanoids in front of the party in wolf form.  Goblins eat anything not nailed down and smell verily of poop and even worse aromas.  His only saving grace is that he is diminutive which can make his lack of social norms seem, cute in a sick way.  His sharp mind and wit however give him the cunning of knowing when to say the right things and when to act differently for better results.  He also has persuasion training, mostly from being wise enough to structure his arguments soundly, and not at all from his not-to-pleasant demeanor.

Modern Equivalent: Smeagol Gollum, Gurgi, our cat Squeaky


Fenthon: 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha

I play this one as savvy in what he wants to say and how he acts around others because he has keen observation and social skills learned.  His lack of charisma and wisdom is most seen in that he doesnt appear to notice when he is using words and terminologies too learned for people to understand.  He will start explaining the minute details of alchemical theory or medicine with a half-giant, who sits there dumbfounded and uncomprehended to the thesis paper of a paragraph that just shot over his head.  He doesn't knopw how to back away from a debate, and will hold up the party for hours as he and a priest debate theology for hours and hours, or political theory with the paladin. He can be rather cold to people on an emotional level, and outright scare them when they see him obsessedly dissecting foes in the name of science.  He is much patterned after both Hannibal Lecter and Jeffery Combs, so just imagine an overly smug and educated voice droning on and on in a very self-satisfied manner.

Modern Equivalent: Hannibal Lecter, Jeffrey Combs, Sweeny Todd


Bjornigar Ironguts: 14 int, 6 cha, 8 wis

Low personal hygeine with a hefty keg of dwarven gas at his disposal, he falls into that same muck-covered reeking category as Kurn.  As a LN mindset, much of his friction with others and his brash actions stem from an almost blind, Archie Bunkerish adherance to tradition.  Women should stay in the kitchen and raise babies, elfs is all dainty lasses, Halflins take yer wallet, a law is a law is a law, no matter how absurd, unemployed people just dont want to work, if you dont work, yer a bum.  He's basically a very grumpy old man who shakes his fist and tells you to get a haircut.  Oh, and his gluttony and obesity dont help much either.  He does however keep a good almost infinite stock of fine foods, so he's like that one fat hairy smelly guy you know who hosts great barbecues.

Modern Equivalent: Archie Bunker, Dom Delouise, Rockefeller, my dad

[[b]MerlinAlpha[/b]]

Glad to see that for most this is common knowledge.
 
 I'd say that if you have both Wis and cha as low ranking stats, coupled with other skill points like intimidate. Your character would probably be a brute, rude and obviously not really know better. Can he learn to be better, if he has the Int for it, sure. But instinctively, nope. Now imagine a Barbarian with that! ^.^
 
 Fin: Wis 8, Cha 8, int 14. I play him as someone who has very poor people skills, who says what he thinks good or bad when ever, where ever (even more so if he is p****d at someone or group of people). But he has the ability to learn from his mistakes. And as someone has managed to see, he can open up and be less brutish than his usual.