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The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: DMOE on April 26, 2007, 06:31:58 am

Title: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: DMOE on April 26, 2007, 06:31:58 am
We have no comeliness Stat in the NWN nights engine....As such, Cha needs to represent a balance between characters attractiveness and 'people’ skills.  10 in NWN Stats is considered as average as I understand it...so with the above balance that would be pretty average looking and pretty average people skills.

I wonder how many people have Cha as their dump Stat...say 10 or lower and have amazingly attractive PC’s who also have great people skills?

Now...I’m sure some of you are saying....”what’s the harm in that?” Well....not everyone uses Cha as their dump Stat...Some people actually do sit and think how they wish their character to be looks and people skill wise and actually put the points into their Cha to reflect that.  In fact....everyone should be doing that at character creation....The whole point is that you can’t necessarily get all your Stats exactly how you’d want them so you do have to sacrifice some things.  If you’re playing your Cha 10 character as amazingly beautiful cause you wanted more Str or Con say....where’s your sacrifice?  The person putting their Cha at say 14 has made theirs.

Now remember it is all about balance...I have seen a Cha 8 character who was played as very good looking....Their IC people skills were terrible, I mean really terrible...It was some very excellent RP on the part of the player who was actually very sociable to be such an anti-social character all the time.

Take my own Cleric of Mist for example....She has Cha 12 and the following in her bio “She may be considered stunning by many but her eyes are what draw you to her, they seem to swirl, shifting with her mood much as the sea would in a storm but within them is a coldness that may detract from her beauty”....Anyone who has met her will agree she is NOT a people person...She is blunt, rude, judgemental and those are often her nicer traits!!! As such, I play her as being slightly more attractive than Cha 12 because her people skills are lower than those of Cha 12.....Obviously those are my perceptions of Cha 12 but most people can apply enough common sense so we are all pretty much working on the same page.

So have a thought when creating your character, requesting a description change and obviously RPing your character as to what the balance is between your characters attractiveness and people skills and if you want to be good at both...actually put the points into Cha to reflect that rather than getting yourself a 'freebie’ and using it as a dump Stat.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: kenty191 on April 26, 2007, 06:52:10 am
Karn has a charisma of 19 unmodified...

:)
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 26, 2007, 07:03:11 am
I largely agree that CHA is probably the most abused since it has the least impact on game mechanics of combat for many.  However, should the differences between a 10 CHA and a 14 CHA fighter be reflected during RP?  How often?  Should the 14 CHA always take charge over the 10 CHA?  How can we self-police that?  Should the GMs police it?

Personally, I think the following would go a long way:
- OR -
Basically, let's just all agree either that CHA is our dump stat (with a minimum of 10), or let's give ourselves someway to "see" the other persons leadership/beauty OOCly.

*uses widget and attempts to make FORT check as the "stunning" 8 CHA woman in the slinky dress walks past*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: DMOE on April 26, 2007, 07:13:07 am
Firstly...Cha covers a wide range of people skills including leadership.

To me...this means you could have Cha 14 and not be a strong leader, but instead just really likable.  People would be more inclined to follow your suggestions but you don't push yourself to be a 'leader'.  Equally so you can be Cha 10, a very strong leader and not necessarily that likable but respected for your leadership qualities.  I'm sure anyone here in the forces or Ex-forces will tell you that very few Sargent's come across as 'likable' but they are respected as leaders, generally :)

Why can't we simply trust people to RP their stats?  Why do we need another rule or another widget?

Yes it can be hard to Rp a lower cha than you say naturally have...But isn't that part of the challenge?

I personally not only look at a new characters Stats in relation to what I think will suit them but also to what I think I can play!!!
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Kindo on April 26, 2007, 07:14:05 am
I personally go almost entirely for personal strength and social skills when I think about Charisma as a character attribute. I have two characters, both of them have 8 points Charisma. I imagine them both to be about, or just under, average in "attractiveness" (honestly, we all have different taste, so it's wrong to say that anyone with high charisma would be considered "gorgeous" by all), and I would answer that if anyone ever queried me about my characters' appearance, but their social skills are horrendous and they are not at all motivational leaders. I think Charisma as a social stat, rather than physical appearance stat, is much more interesting, and thus, I play it like that. Attractiveness through words and character, rather than flesh, is the way to go.

Quote from: kenty191
Karn has a charisma of 19 unmodified...
Hotness overload!
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 07:34:42 am
It's both physical and mental simply because one's physical attractiveness affects how others react to him, whether it's conscious or not. Look at all the men who date the hot retarded chicks with the people skills of toads. That's comeliness affecting charisma score, right there. It's not all of it, and I would say 'less' of it than force of personality, but it definitely is involved. There are a lot of threads on it though so I'll stop there. ;)

There are a lot of ways we can juggle and balance the stat - like Kindo saying it's not so much that his character is hideous but rather his social skills that are at fault. Likewise a hideous general in command can hold an army together in the most dire of situations with a good charisma (and other stats too of course, otherwise he's all talk ;) ).

It's when you start getting the "stunning woman with a winning smile" AS WELL as the "welcoming, inviting, likeable, alluring" equaling a total of 8 CHA that is the bad part. I could probably swing either way with a 10 at the expense of the other, but not both really. Hehe.

I'm not really ready to give up and have it be a universal dump stat though.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Faldred on April 26, 2007, 10:12:04 am
At the risk of sounding immodest to quote myself... from my article Roleplaying Attributes (http://www.layonara.com/roleplaying/109544-roleplaying-attributes.html) (emphasis not in the original):

Quote
A "beautiful" person can have the Charisma of a stick, and an "ugly" person can rule an empire by sheer will. This is, of course, extreme, and human (or demi-human) nature leads us to naturally perceive those with what be believe to be positive physical traits as more charismatic, so it has some place.
 
But much more so than that, Charisma is the couter-point to Wisdom. Whereas the latter is about force of will focused inward on one's self, Charisma is about the ability to impose one's will on others, hence its inclusion as a "mental" ability. Leadership, to be slightly cynical, is about getting people to do what you think they should be doing, or, in other words, manipulating them. This is not necessarily a bad thing -- the Paladin may believe that she is showing people the True Path and helping them focus their energies. Of course, the same ability can be used by the dark side to dominate or (mentally) oppress others. In any case, the abilities come from some combination of physical appearance, force of personality, leadership skill, smooth talking, and apparent moral authority.

...

Charisma, from a role-playing standpoint, offers probably a wider set of options than Wisdom or intelligence do. A middle-of-the-road Charisma could be a slick-talking attractive person who just has no leadership skills or could just as well be an excellent managerial type who faints at the thought of public speaking.
The most important thing to remember is to roleplay your attributes!  If you have a low Charisma, play a low Charisma.  I list five factors to consider for Charisma -- if your ability score is below 10, then you'd better be, in general below average on most of those points, and anywhere you're above average should be offset by another trait (or two).
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: kenty191 on April 26, 2007, 10:22:25 am
I like to think of Karn (Cha 19) as appearing quite handsome and he does appear to have a way with the ladies (even if it doesn't serve him), and on the whole is quite friendly and likeable HOWEVER his wisdom is 8, his insightfulness is zero, and so, at times he will blunder in and say exactly the wrong thing, thereby countering his usual charm.

Karn can also try REALLY hard to be likeable, when facing royality for example, as he has in the past.

In contrast I think Elzhabehl (Cha 10) though not hideous, is certainly very serious looking, always wears a frown and generally looks rather annoyed making those around him reluctant to approach. However to go back to the leadership point, his high intelligence (19) makes many follow him, and he is very authoritarian and proud by his very nature, that is not to say he is a 'good' leader, just that he can lead.

A bit of an overall view there...
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: LordCove on April 26, 2007, 11:18:00 am
Yup...agree with the above.

Sall ( Cha 10 ) ...not a dump stat in my book, I dont have one, but, if I was a little more wised up about NWN when I made him, I might have ;)
Wouldn't now of course  :)

But...as some know. He is not totally sociable. He is not a great leader, or at least doesn't think he is, despite what some say. And of course....isn't the greatest looker...as his IG description kinda suggests " weary looking..and such.."

It is a shame there isn't more visible uses for Charisma ingame other than adding a few points to Persuasion and such ( despite the obvious for Sorcers/Bards and Clerics )

I would probably like to know if the supposed handsome and stalwart fighter leading and inspiring us into battle has 6 CHA or 16 CHA...I'd be able to RP whether I'd go along or not. You get an idea of someone's CHA ( roughly )..simply by looking at them....where as INT, WIS and other's you dont.

But...*shrugs*....what do I know   :)

A new widget is added to our inventory that will query the CHA of the targeted PC.  -  Pen n Popper

Although a fantastic idea, and I love it!... of course, creates a whole lot of work for the Teams which isn't totally necessary.

Maybe's instead a little note on our IG character description telling what Charisma is?
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: magnusarin on April 26, 2007, 12:15:14 pm
The thing is, none of the mental stats (int, wis, cha) are easy to RP and it's always easier to play these stats lower than higher. I don't think you can seperate these stats when discussing a character's personality.
My examples in game are this. My first character Trajan has 14 int and Wis but only 10 cha. He's got a decent diplomacy check but I've very rarely used it. When I role play Trajan hardly ever decides where a group is going to go and he never volunteers to lead anything unless no one else will do it. But that said he's a personable guy to his friends. He's fairly quick witted and perceptive offering insight and humor to a group but little leadership.
On the contrast is my paladin Orin who has 10 int 14 wis and 16 cha. He's an earnest guy who doesn't understand higher end jokes. He's not necessarily friendly, but he's polite, attractive and when he wants to be, very persuasive and he's a decision maker.

If you take charisma by itself Orin would be the more well liked with more friends and Trajan would be someone that unless he was your friend you'd probably never notice. But I think you need to look at your combination of mental stats.

In a similar vein, how does extreme intelligence get played? I'm a smart guy, but not 20 intelligence smart and there aren't a great deal of game mechanics that support it, especially with the lack of Knowledge skills like in PnP. You just have to trust people to play a character as they see fit. Been that way in DnD for about 30 years.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Drizzlin on April 26, 2007, 12:30:30 pm
Quote from: Pen N Popper
I largely agree that CHA is probably the most abused since it has the least impact on game mechanics of combat for many.  However, should the differences between a 10 CHA and a 14 CHA fighter be reflected during RP?  How often?  Should the 14 CHA always take charge over the 10 CHA?  How can we self-police that?  Should the GMs police it?

Personally, I think the following would go a long way:
  • No CHA may be set below 10 on the character creation page, including dwarves and halforcs.
- OR -
  • A new widget is added to our inventory that will query the CHA of the targeted PC.
Basically, let's just all agree either that CHA is our dump stat (with a minimum of 10), or let's give ourselves someway to "see" the other persons leadership/beauty OOCly.

*uses widget and attempts to make FORT check as the "stunning" 8 CHA woman in the slinky dress walks past*


That is crazy, that would be like saying all elves MUST come in with a 20 dex because they recieve a +2 dex bonus. Half orcs are less charismatic and flat out ugly on the average. That is why they have a -2 to charisma. Now your arguement for all other pcs to be at there average of 10 can be justified, but to say that the negative modifiers for certain races should not be at their average is IMO wrong, because it is in fact their average scores.

IF you were to say that pcs should be required to have stats no lower than their racial averages, then you would have an argument, but once you start requiring every race to ignore their negatives had have 10 as their base average stats, then we can just get rid of every single race and all make humans.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 26, 2007, 12:40:40 pm
True!  It would be unfair to those races.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 26, 2007, 01:34:14 pm
I personally don't think there should be a widget to measure character stats because of metagaming, plain and simple *shrug* You can go ahead with the argument of "Oh, but it's looks, right?" Sure, but then there's the mind vs. what you see element getting involved, and then the fact helms and such are part of it and...

Honestly, I think it has a better chance of getting messy than clarifying. Not to mention, for the newer roleplayers who just joined, oh my. Poor things.

I'd also like to point out... No one really rolls CHA checks, do they? I see DEX checks and reflex and the occasional INT, but no CHA...Instead of having widgets or the GMs to police us, why not just roll a CHA check when using the influence on someone else? That's technically how things work, right? Some girl described as pretty gets big, innocent eyes and begs for you to take her to Dregar and kill things for her...Rolls a CHA check...Ouch, that's low!

Okay, it can either be roleplayed out as a plain no, or you can think she's having a bad day and help out of sympathy ;) Not every "beautiful" person is beautiful every day, anyhow!

Not everyone roleplays their stats correctly, and honestly, I think we should just let them do as they please. It's a character, it's a game... I think over-policing just takes out the fun factor. I get a touch irritable when people get nitpicky over my character, but hey, that's life.

The same argument of CHA can be used for DEX too...How many times do you see characters being described "graceful?" Honestly, I think the three stats (STR, DEX, CON) can also be a sort of backup against CHA, and CHA being more personality forward. STR could be your build, DEX your flow, and CON how you weigh against the bulk of muscles (STR).

*coughs*
I'm getting too in-depth.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: DMOE on April 26, 2007, 01:48:30 pm
Quote from: Interia_Discordius


Not everyone roleplays their stats correctly, and honestly, I think we should just let them do as they please. It's a character, it's a game... I think over-policing just takes out the fun factor. I get a touch irritable when people get nitpicky over my character, but hey, that's life.


So you think it's perfectly fair if a player accepts they will have a weaker Str or Con say to ensure that they have the 'correct Cha' when another player states they are amazingly beautiful and have a Cha 10 or below so they can have the points elsewhere?

You think it's over-policing to suggest people act in a fair and reasonable manner to other people who do make the effort rather than take a freebie cause they can?

Yes, it is a game, and yes it is supposed to be fun....Doesn't mean you should abuse aspects of it though or that asking people to think about if they are doing that is removing that fun.  

Also how are people supposed to grow and learn as RP'ers if they don't try and RP their stats?
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 26, 2007, 01:53:16 pm
Since Faldred did it, I suppose I will, despite being at severe risk of having tomatoes thrown at me. Especially since my view of charisma is quite different than the "standard" view.

Anywho, in reply to a post by Dib Monkey, I explain my view. Here's his post:

"I'm playing a character with a charisma of 6, but I've taken skills in persuade, bluff and intimidate to reflect on oratry skills and a general striving to better communication.

I am almost always polite, without trying to influence others (if anything I am a little too polite, showing my inability to speak naturally) I am rarely outspoken unless through genuine dislike of another chracter's action and attempts at humour are often clumsy (although with int 14 I allow for some wit)

In an average interaction with a group this may not come through, as being polite is all that is necessary and generally accepted during a game. Is this acceptable, or even with cha skills should I be playing it differently?

(I have spent some time thinking about this so no quick judgments, I'd like some critical advice)"

And here's my reply. Strangely, mine was the only reply.

"There is lots of commentary to be found on what it means to have low/high charisma within this forum alone. That being said, and without having interacted much with the character, I'd wager that what you've described above is entirely within the realm of correctly playing the attribute.

My bit of reasoning is based on the notion that Charisma represents force of personality. It's what makes a person stand out (why it's associated with beauty) and pressure others (why high charisma can lend to leadership). Everyone's got some, but like any other attribute, some have more than others. Having a low charisma isn't saying that you can't pressure people, or that you don't on occasion stand out, it's saying that you stand out less often, are less likely to pressure people, than someone with an above average charisma. It does not represent an ability to pressure people or stand out, but rather a propensity to. This is the main reason charisma as an attribute often gets muddled and people argue its affects. The other attributes all represent ability (hence the name, ability attribute). Strength represents how much you can lift; Intelligence represents how well you employ logic, your level of cognition; but Charisma doesn't represent how pretty you are, but rather the likelyhood that you choose to use that beauty to a certain end. There are beautiful people who don't often stand out, just as there are ugly people that do.

From what I read above, your choice to play your character as very polite falls directly in line with how a more or less uncharismatic character might act, because it's a choice, whether deliberate or natural to the character, that means the character stands out from the crowd less, and isn't interested in pressuring the crowd.

The fact that your character has skills designed to pressure people (persuade, intimidate, etc.) represents not only that you can, but that you might be halfway decent at pressuring people. However, your character's low charisma means that you seldom employ those skills, that ability to sway someone. And that's exactly how you play your character.

Hope this helps.
-milty"

Right, so extrapolating from what I previously said, Charisma, as I view it, does not actually represent either beauty or people skills. Beauty is beauty, and people skills are people skills. Charisma is a whole other cookie. Charisma is a matter of your character's desire to use his/her beauty and/or people skills to get what they want. Really, that's what all the stats are about. Your best stats determine what you use to get what you want. G'ork has a high strength, so he smashes things to get what he wants. Malor has a high intelligence, so he outwits things to get what he wants. Granted, that is a gross oversimplification of how it works, but you get the picture.

Charisma is the same thing. Kali has a high charisma, so she uses a winning smile and her stunning red hair to get what she wants. Now, what about some other lovely young woman with stunning red hair and a winning smile that prefers to smash things to get what she wants? Naturally, she would have a low charisma, but still be pretty (this line I think most people here agree with). On the flip side of that, what if there was a particularly ugly woman who preferred to use her excellent people skills to get what she wants. She would have a high charisma, but still be ugly. And finally, what if we have a stunning woman, gorgeous even, who also is trained fully in the arts of persuasion and diplomacy... but actually relies on her quickness and speed to get what she wants. In this case, she has people skills, she has beauty, yet she still has a low charisma. Why? Because she isn't interested in using the skills or her beauty to get what she wants. She can draw a knife and stab you with it before you can blink, and she prefers that method to batting her eyes or playing the diplomat.

Now, this doesn't mean that she'll never use her beauty or people skills to get what she wants; her low charisma means she prefers not to. This is just like if you rely on a high strength but on occasion you turn to your wits to win a battle when you realize strength alone might not accomplish the task. Again, this is a gross simplification of all that goes on in a complicated, well rounded person, but it's a foundation for understanding the stats.... in my most humble opinion..... ;)
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 01:53:37 pm
Most characters -are- graceful, though. That's very rarely a matter of not playing stats correctly - few characters use Dex as a dump stat. Meaning it's usually 10+. It's the non-used mental attributes that are typically used as an 8.

And helms wouldn't subtract from your charisma score. Not unless your charisma is solely about looks, in which case it can't be very high anyway, and as well you're likely not going to be wearing a helm in the first place. In fact if one is a warrior type with decent charisma it may only add to the confident bearing he has about him or something. *shrugs*

And yes, people do roll Charisma checks. Seen it on and off quests. Not really common no, but I don't roll for a lot of things because I know for the most part what she is and is not capable of...sometimes I roll private checks to make sure there are no critical failures, but otherwise I rarely roll any ability checks. Sometimes a charisma on first meeting someone. A dex on juggling with her toes while standing on her hands. Whatever. Still.

How is that any different from such a widget? I'm not in favor of the tool as I don't think it's particularly useful, but I don't see any metagaming aspect to it as charisma is after all about how OUR characters are influenced by THEM. How is it metagaming to simply look at the number when seeing how far you're really going to allow your character to be taken in by the alluringly persuasive heartthrob tactic, when if their charisma is 8, they are the ones that are taking things out of character?

Again...not really for such a widget but I see little difference in me seeing you roll a charisma check with a negative modifier and noting you have 8 charisma, and me clicking an observe button and seeing that you have 8 charisma.

The very point that it -isn't- different from rolling a check is why I don't see the point in it...not fear of metagaming. ;)
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 26, 2007, 01:55:53 pm
I just think that the people who abuse are going to abuse and the people who RP it correctly are going to. Either way, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference outside of DM quests, as people follow the person who knows the terrain the most and beauty is covered by armor.

Like I said, when and if it makes a difference, a CHA check should be rolled. That way, the GMs don't have to do anything and we can police each other. The widget sounds like just another mess in the toolset, even if it's only one.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 02:01:25 pm
Eh, frankly I just can't get along with the interpretation of an 'ability score' (note the word ability) being a "do I choose to use my ability" score. I completely understand the gist, it just don't jibe for me.

Could we say that someone has bulging muscles but chooses pacifism has low strength even if he can lift a car, simply because he -chooses- to use a different path? Someone that is light and quick that wishes she were as clever as the wizard and didn't have to resort to thievery and such to get what she wanted - eventually trying her hand at it: high int low dex because it's her choice, despite her previous stats sort of pointing the reverse?

Or is it only charisma that gets this "I choose therefore I am" mentality? Despite that some want to be the center of attention and try -and fail- to use looks or charm because they don't have any but rather don't have the wisdom to realize they're butt-ugly with the affability of a rabit goat?

It just seems to me like if charisma is charisma because you want it to be, that should go for other mental stats as well, and hey if not them why not them all? And then where would characters who took different paths than they wanted be? Technically they all would be what they wanted, because to want is to have the proper ability scores, it seems. :P

The choice of whether or not influence is used is just as often a matter of arbitrary choice or the wisdom/intelligence to know which tool is best for the occasion.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: ycleption on April 26, 2007, 02:06:52 pm
As people have mentioned, part of the problem is that charisma represents too many things.
Th other part of the problem is that how a given character reacts to "charismatic" action is highly individualistic. Maybe I'm the jealous type and so am less affected by a beautiful person. Maybe I respect honestly and so am more swayed by utter tactlessness than by eloquent diplomatic speech. Maybe I'm insecure about my own personal strength, and so resent the force of personality others possess. A crowd in a tavern and a gathering of diplomats probably react very differently to the same "combination of physical appearance, force of personality, leadership skill, smooth talking, and apparent moral authority." In some specific places and situations, a low charisma character might even have a social advantage over a higher charisma character.
Unfortunately, the game doesn't recognize all of this. I think a widget would only exacerbate the problem, because people might feel they "should" react to people in a certain way, to the neglect of roleplaying.
I definitely agree with the original post that some people want to have the extra stat points without accepting the repercussions that should come with that, or make a token effort to represent low CHA without actually rping it (the character descriptions "stunningly beautiful, but with an icky aura"), but I don't think there is anyway to really control it, without imposing unrealistic limitations.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: DMOE on April 26, 2007, 02:16:06 pm
Quote from: Interia_Discordius
I just think that the people who abuse are going to abuse and the people who RP it correctly are going to. Either way, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference outside of DM quests, as people follow the person who knows the terrain the most and beauty is covered by armor.

Like I said, when and if it makes a difference, a CHA check should be rolled. That way, the GMs don't have to do anything and we can police each other. The widget sounds like just another mess in the toolset, even if it's only one.


It makes a different the minute one player reads the character description of another player and therefore decides how their character will react to them....obviously not all choose to have character descriptions but a lot do and a lot of people read them to decide basic things about the character they are talking to.

As for people following the persons who knows the terrain the most....Gee thanks for deciding that all our time is spent on server simply 'bashing'

As Acacea stated...This does not happen with any other Stat in the same way it does with Cha and I see no reason why we shouldn't ask people not to abuse it...
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 02:19:04 pm
Likewise to ycleption I think a widget isn't really an answer - I envision it being used and having other characters decide my low cha is ugliness or foul smell, or that her high charisma is perfection in form or something and leaving most just unsure of how to react - knowing that they're supposed to be influenced somehow by this mysterious number but if it's not played, not knowing how exactly. My characters' strengths and flaws are mine to make, not someone else's! :P I just need to have the numbers to back up what I envision.

As far as the relationship between ability-based skills and an ability score's effect on them...I hate how it works. :) It really bugs me that a character with 4 dex will end up with a whole -3 to a maxed tumble. Sorry, you can barely walk without hitting yourself in the head with your foot, but you can bend and tumble and whirl away from any blow that strikes you? Come on...just put some points in dex.

Likewise a 6 charisma with maxed diplomacy skills... There's a reason the low charisma is there, and it's not because "I really have a high one but don't choose to use it right now," in my opinion, heh. I also know everything, I just am choosing not to share it all with you! I don't think it should require the ability score to put points in it, I just think that the "ability modifier" is pretty weak in the long run, whether positive or negative.

*stop posting now...* Whoops...

As an edit after re-reading some previous posts, I just wanted to add that I don't feel this thread was created in an attempt to force any form of roleplay or lock anyone into a police state; rather, it is just reminding others to work your numbers into your character concept, which is something most of us do already. If you already do, then what's the worry? ;) However, there are a few that don't bother making the numbers match what they put forth, which is, yes, kind of annoying to those that do roleplay their attributes... which is what inspired this reminder. :P
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 26, 2007, 02:22:07 pm
I didn't decide all time was spent on the server bashing, it was just an example...

And it's fine to ask, but really, CHA is different for everyone really. I don't think I'd feel right pointing at someone and saying "You're abusing your use of CHA" when beauty is in the eye of the beholder and personality is the drawback and not the looks.

In other words, CHA just feels too open...I'll just leave it an open playing field like I think NWN meant it to be and hope they're policing themselves and balancing it out somehow, cause I don't have the powers to know or care to.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 02:28:18 pm
Hehe well chances are if they're written up as the stunning elf that shamelessly wraps all the men around her finger to get her way, but has a 6 cha, that's a good indication and is the point of the post :P Most things are interpretive, no one is trying to say that there are not many different aspects to the ability, simply reminding everyone to balance them out. Just like anything else, really. There are many different types of intelligence, as well. But if you are a genius with languages and so-so with everything else, you don't give yourself an 8 INT because "I have a weakness with math."
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 26, 2007, 02:34:33 pm
*giggle*
Okay, thanks for spelling it out for me. No sarcasm, that's sincerity. I don't think I've seen much of that though, really...That's sort of why I assumed it was a given and was arguing more of the blurry 10-12 CHA areas. But yeah, if it's seriously that low...

Would anyone actually do that? o.0

Whole point I was arguing against in the end though, do we really have to make changes on the actual game for CHA? (widgets etc?) For that aspect, I felt nothing should be done... **shrug**
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Faldred on April 26, 2007, 02:35:29 pm
Quote from: ycleption
A crowd in a tavern and a gathering of diplomats probably react very differently to the same "combination of physical appearance, force of personality, leadership skill, smooth talking, and apparent moral authority." In some specific places and situations, a low charisma character might even have a social advantage over a higher charisma character.

If you play your character's abilities correctly, the reactions you get in any given situation should be more genuine.  Two folks with an identical Charisma score, but each having a different weighting of those five factors should evoke different reactions to the same situation.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: DMOE on April 26, 2007, 02:38:50 pm
Well for those of us who do play our Cha properly...we sometimes don't get into parties etc because of how we RP the Cha of our characters.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but as we DO know that a 10 Stat is average then someone describing themselves as a highly beautiful, people person with a below 10 Cha is pretty much abusing the system.  People wouldn't describe themselves as strong with a Str 10 or below.

Cha is only to open if people don't bother to RP it, IMHO.

You do have the power to know if people make the effort to RP it correctly...We're an RP server so people should be making the effort..again IMHO

As Acacea said in her edit....

"As an edit after re-reading some previous posts, I just wanted to add that I don't feel this thread was created in an attempt to force any form of roleplay or lock anyone into a police state; rather, it is just reminding others to work your numbers into your character concept, which is something most of us do already. If you already do, then what's the worry? However, there are a few that don't bother making the numbers match what they put forth, which is, yes, kind of annoying to those that do roleplay their attributes... which is what inspired this reminder. :P"
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: ycleption on April 26, 2007, 03:05:48 pm
Quote from: Faldred
Two folks with an identical Charisma score, but each having a different weighting of those five factors should evoke different reactions to the same situation.


Yes, that's true...

I guess my point is just that while people should roleplay their attributes, in a multi player environment a sufficiently complex character will often evoke reactions that may not be suggested by their attributes.
For example, my druid has a charisma of 8... I'd like to think I roleplay that well; to most people (excepting most other druids and misties) she's rude, brusque, and tactless. She sarcastically sneers, smirks, and scoffs with regularity. Yet, somehow, she often finds herself in leadership roles, I think because many characters don't like to challenge her outspokenness. It's honestly surprised me how accepting people are of her behavior.

Again, I agree whole-heartedly with the initial post, but I think that there is some flexibility that needs to be kept in mind. Requesting that people think about their stats when they create their characters is entirely reasonable, and I wouldn't even object to requiring explanations of how players intend to portray their stats in character submissions. I do however, strongly object to in game mechanisms to evaluate other players stats, because I think we should react to other characters on the basis of HOW they roleplay their stats, not what the exact number is.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: LynnJuniper on April 26, 2007, 03:26:06 pm
Rhynn -- Total CHA (Buffed/Items) 21 -- She's mean sometimes but persuasive and very very pretty. Sometimes I feel like people can't help but be drawn to her even though they may want to kill her sometimes. Its all intentional. I still think high CHA characters can (and need to) have character flaws that would make others not like them. Rhynn for example, has appeal even if its in the eye of the Beholder (or Squishy)

Ya'asar -- Here's my CHA 8 Character. Still handsome, however he has 0 people skills. He's convicted but he is completley unable to express himself properly without letting the haughty arrogance of the grey elf pour through

Eyafares -- CHA -- Sorceress (Scaling). Shes an enchantress. I believe firmly that enchantresses and illusionists should have CHA as an important stat just as I believe DEX would be important for Evokers and Wisdom for Diviners. That said she's manipulative in different and more magical ways then Rhynn. She also has a few things to cover up with the much needed CHA.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: MJZ on April 26, 2007, 04:42:33 pm
Quote from: Kindo
I personally go almost entirely for personal strength and social skills when I think about Charisma as a character attribute. ... I think Charisma as a social stat, rather than physical appearance stat, is much more interesting, and thus, I play it like that. Attractiveness through words and character, rather than flesh, is the way to go.

I agree with you here very much. Your behaviour, manner of speaking, the way you carry yourself and the way you move is a *huge* influence on whether you're deemed attractive, anyways. I don't think CHA is THE stat for appearances - after all, a fellow with a decent STR stat is well-built and therefore likely to come off as attractive in that respect, a lady with high DEX is going to be very graceful and hence come off attractive that way, etc. Like Kindo mentioned, different people have different taste, so it's a bit odd to think one stat should govern Physical attractiveness for all people of all races and personalities.

However! Like I mentioned, your social skills *are* a pretty big part of how you are perceived. Someone technically less physically "attractive" but with a far greater knowledge of the human (elven/dwarven/halfling/orcish/etc..) psyche is going to know how to flirt and get attention through a high CHA stat much more successfully than another born with fairer features, who say laughs like a horse, belches frequently and loudly at meals, and puts their foot in their mouth whenever they open it (ie CHA 8 ).

I wouldn't attribute attractiveness and personal magnetism entirely to physical appearance, so I don't feel CHA is directly tied to appearance. I basically agree with Faldred's description of CHA - and I feel this is going to have implications as to your perceived attractiveness, even if you're not to be considered a beauty queen/king by most.

I feel these sorts of things are best to be handled by character descriptions. Ie, if you feel your character is average-looking but has a padded CHA stat, "despite his rather plain appearance, something in this man's eyes and the manner in which his smile spreads across his face seems to magnetize you" or whatever. Likewise for if CHA is your dump stat, but you still feel your character is on the good-looking side of things.

That said, I have to add: it aggravates me that people would write elaborate descriptions of their character's beauty and grace, if they have 6-8 CHA. Witch and I had a bit of a rant about this a while ago - even though I don't think the two are completely tied together, let's be reasonable. How can you be a paragon of beauty with a below average CHA? If you've ever met someone who was technically very attractive but had absolutely no social skills, was highly stupid or insensitive or abrasive or arrogant or what have you, they don't seem attractive the next time you meet them. *Shrugs*

Ariel - 19 unbuffed, 21 total CHA. Persuasive? If she wants to be, but you have to consider you character. Just because you have a high CHA, doesn't mean you're uber-manipulative. Pretty? Well, without dwelling on it in the description and without inputting references to it specifically during RP, she comes off as attractive to people she meets. How? I dunno, I guess I manage to convey it without being blatant about it. At level 9 she's got one person eternally devoted to her, one person who thinks she is the voice of The Force that runs through the universe, one person who never knew kindness in love with her... well, those things are pretty well directly related to the stat, I think.

I think it boils down to what you use your CHA stat for. Eg Ariel's alignment title being "reconciler," I think that's a fair assessment of what she uses her CHA for. Someone with a manipulative bent is going to be using their skills in that direction, a paladin is going to be using their skills for leadership, etc. CHA is a lot more flexible I think b/c it depends on your personality. If you're physically strong, you're just physically strong. You can't be strong in a "specific" way - about the only variation there is if you're a dexterous fighter who uses precision instead of great force. Same with the other stats - you can't really be "healthy" and "tough" in a certain way, CON is pretty much just CON, DEX is pretty much just DEX. CHA's a little trickier, is all.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 05:08:29 pm
MJZ, I think that's pretty much where most people are on this thread, despite the comments on whether it governs physical attraction or not. None of us that I know of think Charisma = Hot, and gladly factor in many other things both into 'appearance' and 'attraction,' but as the original post said, it's not completely separate either - what's up with the gorgeous chicks with the winning smiles wooing all the men with 8 charisma? "Oh yes I'm just a little flirt that gets all the boys sending me flowers!" *Rolls eyes* :P

As for being trickier, INT and WIS are also tricky in similar ways :) The mental stats are harder to 'fake' than the physical ones for most of us! The page Faldred links to is a great sticky, though.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Honora on April 26, 2007, 06:05:30 pm
And one more wrinkle; you can be a CHA 28 human that makes Halle Berry look like Rosanne Barr, and chances are an elf still won't find you pretty.  Or persuasive.

Let's not forget the racial element :).  What good is smooth, peach-blush skin if there's no beard for the dwarves?  Or sun-kissed golden hair to your waist, if it's a gnome?
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Pseudonym on April 26, 2007, 06:35:06 pm
I'm not normally a huge fan of spammed attribute checks and skill rolls for very little purpose but I do find charisma to be a useful one to throw out there every now and again, esp as Acacea said when you first meet someone.

My method with my main PC is *flashes his most winning smile* *cha check* 1d20+0. Takes all of two seconds and just (hopefully) lets people know his most winning smile is still not that winning! As such, although he is played as flirtatious (sure, it's a RP stretch for me!) most of the women he knows have an appropriate lack of awe and simpering towards the poor guy!
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Gulnyr on April 26, 2007, 06:44:24 pm
Generally, race has little to do with it.  The rules are set up to account for a world of multiple races that interact with each other fairly regularly.  There are occasional exceptions (like Elves on Voltrex), but generally a high-Charisma persuasive character is very charismatic and persuasive regardless of race.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: magnusarin on April 26, 2007, 06:55:28 pm
When talking about any stat, whether it be Cha, Str or Dex, we're talking about raw, natural ability. Sam the Orc is naturally better at swinging an ax than Bob the halfling. That doesn't mean Bob can't train himself through feats and attribute points to one day be better with an ax than Sam. You can be the most intelligent character in the world, but if you choose fighter over wizard in PnP you're often not going to seem that way because you don't have alot of intelligence based skills as a fighter and a mage has tons.

A charisma score is just the natural ability of a character to sway other people to his own point of view. Doesn't mean he's being deceptive or manipulative, people just naturally tend to see where he's coming from or want to be in his good favor. Whether it's out of fear, attraction or likabilty is up to the player who makes him. Again, that character doesn't ever have to put a point in diplomacy or intimidate to capitalize on this natural ability. Given time another character could start to garner that same respect even though they aren't naturally persuasive people. You can learn these things. In real life people take speech classes, work on grooming, and read books on rhetoric and become amazingly persuasive.

Unforunately, Charisma is the hardest stat to use because except for Intimidate, there's no real way to effect another PC. In PnP a character never has to believe a high bluff check if they feel their character wouldn't and you don't have to trust someone despite a high diplomacy. I personally always take these into account, but if a known evil person would come up to my paladin it doesn't matter how high these checks are, my paladin isn't going to trust him. Hell, look at presidents. Some people love Bill Clinton and thought he was a very charsimatic leader. Others hate him and found him to be a snake. In the case of charisma it really comes down to trusting players to RP it as best they see fit and as another character, judging characters on what the other player gives you to work off of. It's the least fleshed out of all stats.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: LightlyFrosted on April 26, 2007, 07:04:21 pm
Charisma is tricky.  Looking at some of the associated skills (at least in the PnP), one finds Diplomacy (which suggests at the very least, some iteration of people skills), but simultaneously Intimidation, Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Use Magic Device - the list goes on.  Analyzing them, it seems like a thorough knowledge of psychology is as important to a high-charisma character as physical beauty.

Being attractive MIGHT help you with diplomacy.  If.. the people you are trying to persuade are attracted to you, that is.  And heck, being attractive might even be a detriment - who says that the fairly unattractive person you're trying to persuade isn't a little resentful?  Put together with bluff (with which it is too often used interchangably), this suggests that these charisma-based skills are grounded in knowing which buttons to push in someone's mind, to get a desired reaction - not NECESSARILY making them like you, just getting them to believe or do what you want them to.

Having a memorable appearance may in fact be detrimental to a disguise check.  Depending on the use of the disguise check (sneaking around, for example), being personable might not even come into the factor.  Still, without knowing how people act and react, be it instinctive or trained, a disguise would have an extremely low effectiveness.

Intimidation isn't about being strong and being able to hurt someone.  Heavens knows Layo has hundreds of characters who, although fairly lithe, are dangerous enough that being bigger or stronger than them just makes it easier for them to gut you like a trout.  Again, this is a persuasive skill.  You don't need to be obviously able to hurt someone - you just need to convince them that you're capable - and willing to do so.

Performance CAN be aided or abetted by being beautiful, but also involves a fair amount of technical skill, as well as a rapport with the audience to which one is performing.  Were it PURELY technical skill, it might better fit into dexterity - after all, the nimble movements that are involved in playing an intstrument are paramount to a technical performance - or intelligence, while the oratory components might be absorbed by diplomacy...  were it not for the rapport required with one's audience.  If one is going to try to tell one's captors jokes, in order to get out of a tight bind... well, don't tell the 'fat sailor' jokes to the group of moderately obsese naval officers who just press-ganged you.

I could go on.  The point is, Charisma is varied...  but if you want to reliably get the response you desire from others, it's fairly important.  While I'm not entirely sure where physical beauty factors in, I'd say that Charisma IS a talent you can 'turn on or turn off'....  but you need to have it in order to turn it off.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 26, 2007, 07:31:18 pm
As a note, the gist of my ramblings is not that an ability score equals "do I choose to use my ability score." I'm sorry it was read that way. The point is actually that your ability scores align with your natural tendencies. They correlate, but they are not equal. It's a matter of causality.

It's not because you have a high strength that you prefer to use strength to accomplish things, rather, it's because you prefer to use strength that you have a high strength.

I fear the issue is in how I presented one of my statements:

"Kali has a high charisma, so she uses a winning smile and her stunning red hair to get what she wants."

That sentence should read, "Kali uses a winning smile and her stunning red hair to get what she wants, so she has a high charisma."

Notice that the ability score depends on motivations, because you don't practice at something unles you're motivated, and you don't get better at something unless you practice (setting aside any "natural" ability). Motivation ultimately begats ability. When you're creating a character, if you think about what motivates them, you should be able to derive what their ability scores will be, and perhaps even what their class will be. Of course, you can work backwards, choosing to assign stats and class and then develop a personality to align with the ability scores. Still, are the ability scores causing (or reflecting, as Acacea suggested I was saying) the personality or is the personality causing the development of the ability scores?

This is the real question I was attempting to answer. I am of the opinion that motivation (personality, desire) determines ability. Ability scores are not simply "Natural Ability." I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that for the simple fact that natural ability doesn't account for the action present in a person's life- action that is determined by motivations. And many come at the process of role playing and developing a character by acting as though the abilities determine the motivations. I think this is literally backwards.

That's my overall schema for ability scores in general. Charisma falls under this as well, but as has been said, it's a trickier stat. Unlike the other ability scores, Charisma seems to border between being a physical stat and a mental stat. I (and others, though in different ways) suggest it is not a physical stat, but solely a mental stat. I explain this through my overall understanding of ability scores. Like the other ability scores, Charisma (or perhaps, to be more explicit, the level of Charisma) represents the practice (plus natural ability) in charismatic things (using beauty or rhetoric to persuade), which itself represents the motivation to practice charismatic things. Ultimately that means a high charisma is derived (but not equal to)from a character's high motivation to pursue charismatic things.

Now, to respond to the example of the Cha 8 fellow who thinks he can get along with his looks and/or personality but then ends up making a fool of himself. For one, recall that sometimes people try things they don't usually prefer to use because they think (whether of high or low int/wis) their normal method won't work. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes you and I know they will fail, but the character is unaware, as has been suggested. However, that doesn't change the prior motivational tendencies. So that brings up the whole question of, what happens if a character's motivations change?

If a character's motivations change, the ability changes (and possible alignment/class changes) don't happen overnight. If, the Cha 8 fellow who used to rely more on his tougness than his charisma to get along, decides for whatever reason he now prefers to use "force of personality" to get by, then it will be (or, at least, should be) represented by an increase in his Charisma score. Now, that also means that everyone around him, for quite some time as he practices, will consider him quite foolish in his feeble attempts at persuasion through charismatic means. But eventually, assuming his motivation holds, the practice will pay off and his ability to persuade using charismatic skills will increase. In other words, his Charisma will increase.

On another note, how skills relate to the ability scores in DnD work fine until you get to high/epic levels. Then it gets wonky. Really, I think there should be rank caps on skills based on the correlating ability scores. To use the tumble example, a Dex of 4 might mean you can never get more than 8 ranks in tumble. A dex of 14 means you can never get more than 28 ranks in tumble, etc. That is a simple 1:2 ratio, but you get the picture. Because even someone that is extremely clumsy can roll on the ground. But, like has been said, they can't exactly do flips and arial moves.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 07:47:20 pm
I agree that I wouldn't ban a skill or anything but a cap is more what I was talking about, as 4 DEX = -3 tumble seems well, outrageous :P

I didn't misunderstand the motivation causing ability scores part, and I don't think anyone disagrees that one becomes better at something because one trains it it? Or that one trains it it because one desires to be better in it. To summarize it as "if one desires it one gets it" is a little bit broad for me but yes, if our characters wish to do something in a certain way they will likely train in order to better themselves... higher scores come with practice, of course. It's all words and doesn't actually make a difference until I come against what is basically the same issue I have with the DEX example.

A 6 CHA character with maxed out persuade (equal to a mere minus two to the skill in the long run) making perfect sense because he does not want to influence anyone seems kind of off for me. Clearly if he has a maxed out persuade and other social skills, he has the ability to exert his opinions, directions, whatever, over someone else, and very well at that. The fact that he simply does not choose to doesn't seem to equate with a low ability score for me, though.

I think the confusion came in my wording, not yours - when I said "not a 'do I choose to use my ability score'" I did not mean "should I choose to use my stat number or not?" but rather, "I may be great at any number of things but because I choose not to use them I do not have the ability score to reflect that capability." If that makes any sense. :)
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on April 26, 2007, 08:01:37 pm
Ahh.

Yes. I am in agreement (obviously) about such issues as having extraordinary skills without the attributes to match.

Though, I do have to point out that a problem with our preference for, say skill caps, comes against issues in that a person may be inherently shy (low charisma) but be forced as a child (especially in the case of royalty) to learn the technical aspects of the art of persuasion. So, this person might actually know how to persuade someone with rhetoric in so far as it's possible for them to be exceptional at it, but still prefer never to speak in public. In this case, it's not a matter of self motivations leading to ability/skill, but outside motivations, which can be just as potent and certainly complicates things like skill level and ability scores, especially where mental skills/abilities are involved. The physical stuff seems a bit more straight foreward (It's impossible to be feeble yet be able to swim for miles). but still, even that has issues, since it's possible for a person with slowfingers to be a good pickpocket. I guess the point is that none of it is truely straight foreward and requires some measure of interpretation, which everyone in this thread seems to agree on. My hope (and I think the hope of the originator of this thread) is that those interpretatons are at least backed up by thoughful reflection and not simply a matter of, "Ehh, who needs charisma?" *dump*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 26, 2007, 08:20:54 pm
As mentioned before though, it has several aspects that balance each other out. :) A person who is a little slow with many of the schools of logic, a below average intelligence with his grasp on them, but is well trained and just generally brilliant with another would not have an 8 intelligence despite having below average in other things - it would be offset by what he IS intelligent with. Likewise with charisma, right? A high ability in one facet but low one in several others sort of 'averaging out.'

And yeah our discussion on it doesn't really have much to do with the thread, since whichever perception you prefer clearly thought is being put into it, which is all that is asked for! *Snickers*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Pseudonym on April 26, 2007, 08:48:22 pm
Quote from: DMOE
We have no comeliness Stat in the NWN nights engine....


You're showing your age DMOE .. there hasn't been a comeliness stat since first edition DnD!!!

*suddenly realises that by pointing this out he also reveals that he is old enough to remember 1st edition rules ... runs away*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: DMOE on April 27, 2007, 02:06:23 am
Quote from: Pseudonym
You're showing your age DMOE .. there hasn't been a comeliness stat since first edition DnD!!!

*suddenly realises that by pointing this out he also reveals that he is old enough to remember 1st edition rules ... runs away*


I've never played first edition DnD.....In fact Nibor told me about the comeliness stat on IRC so all I'm really showing is Nibor's age *grins and nods sagely*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Fatherchaos on April 27, 2007, 02:12:02 am
Actually, comliness made a come back in hackmaster, aka "4th edition DND" and I believe one of the suppliments, combat something or another, that split stats into multiple abilities also reintroduced comliness as a substat of charisma.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Pseudonym on April 27, 2007, 02:40:46 am
Quote from: DMOE
I've never played first edition DnD.....In fact Nibor told me about the comeliness stat on IRC so all I'm really showing is Nibor's age *grins and nods sagely*


Ummmmmm, yeah, Nibor told me about it too. Yeah, that's it. Nibor told me. I didn't know what he was talking about ... that old dude. I said yeah Nibor, that sounds wickety-wickety wack and then I grabbed my skateboard. First edition? Huh?

*shifty look*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: darkstorme on April 27, 2007, 03:17:47 am
A certain d20 expansion whose name will not be mentioned here proposed dividing Charisma into Charisma (which now was mainly devoted to personal magnetism and force or personality) and Appearance (APP), which was physical beauty, with a corresponding increase to the number of starting points one could work with.

I think that this, or the old comeliness stat, would be the ideal solution to debates such as these - but the engine, flexible though it may be, does not agree, so that's that on a NWN basis.  A crucial example of why the separation would make sense, however, has stuck with me:  a half-orc, no matter how genteel his manners, would not be invited into a high-society ball if his face were horribly and ritually scarred and he were missing an eye.  Conversely, if all that were left of his orcish heritage was a brutality of personality, an impressive build and a slight skin tone change, he'd have a much better chance.  The effective CHA (combined stat) doesn't change, but the balance between APP and CHA (divided stat), does.

Again, it's not something that can be applied here, but I liked the system, and felt it worth mentioning.

Also, Pseudonym - "wickety-wicket wack"?
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Nibor21 on April 27, 2007, 03:47:37 am
*sulks*
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: kuchida on April 27, 2007, 06:51:03 am
edited because i'm going to stop expressing opionions here..
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Acacea on April 27, 2007, 07:40:22 am
Meh, I can't consider Luck as part of an attribute, because you can't practice luck. Some people are lucky, some are not, regardless of charisma - but a lucky person may attract others because of it. Just like a lot of wealth may attract others, eh? Or some other thing, whether material or not.

I mean another person may be attractive because he's -un-lucky. You know? If he is charismatically unlucky. We know that character, the one where just EVERYthing seems to go wrong for, is a walking disaster, but no one can help but love him and continue to follow him into disaster time and time again?

I would never give a charisma bonus to luck, because it makes little sense to me, but that's just me. :)

Edit - And yes 10 is average, but I don't think anyone has implied otherwise - it likely just seems that way because it was used several times as "10 or below," and the original post was reminding not the players of average people but rather the ones describing far above average ones, with only an average or below charisma. Ie none of us think 10 is repulsive, but why describe your character as alluring, confident appearing, stunning in visual terms, and can wrap any man around her finger - if she is only average or below? Hope that clarified the way the number was used in the thread.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: MJZ on April 27, 2007, 07:42:17 am
Quote from: Pseudonym
I said yeah Nibor, that sounds wickety-wickety wack and then I grabbed my skateboard.

Sounds like something Michelangelo would say from "Turtles in Time" ....wait a minute...
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: HooD!uM on November 09, 2009, 07:15:27 am
i bet ppl would stop dumpin on CHA if it affected how much xp or gold u got from npc/DM shop rewards :P
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: SteveMaurer on November 10, 2009, 07:22:02 pm
Quote from: Faldred
The most important thing to remember is to roleplay your attributes!  If you have a low Charisma, play a low Charisma.

All other things being equal, you are correct.  If you are playing a pretty elf with an 8 CHA, that elf should be played as off-putting.

But on the other hand, I don't feel the particular need to roleplay Rottie gaining a bad reaction roll - not when the first thing most PCs do when they see him for the first time is to draw their weapon.   Sometimes a low CHA really is only physical.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: merlin34baseball on November 11, 2009, 12:23:51 am
Not that 10 is a low Charisma score, but instead of being ugly Chaynce is just obnoxious... I think Charisma can be either physical OR other things that make people act different to you. In my mind its how people precieve you. I work in retail, and some beautiful women come in, then... they open their mouths and I wouldn't give them the time of day because of how their attitude is. So it's more than looks for sure!
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Xaltotun on November 11, 2009, 07:55:46 am
I agree completely with merlin34baseball.

Charisma, in-game as well as real-life, is the name given to people who have that certain je ne sais quoi.

They can be unattractive, but very charismatic; they can be stunningly attractive, but not at all charismatic, or even likeable.

As merlin34baseball said, sometimes when they open their mouths and speak...
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Dun'Raven on February 14, 2010, 04:53:41 am
*Nods in agreement*

Charisma tends to involve all the senses rather than just appearance - even though a normal human takes much of their info. from what they see.

There are many ways a person can be unappealing or low in charisma (or high) and a few simple thoughts that come to mind include :-

Body odour, Irritating voice, annoying or uncivilised habits such as nose-picking or knuckle craking or rolling eyes etc etc.

So much more to a person than the obvioud and indeed, it is amazing how much we take in about someone but process it unconsciously and automatically thus we rarely notice it and just find them "charismatic" or having the "X Factor" or "Je ne se quais" or whatnot.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Patient_Ox on March 07, 2010, 04:44:28 pm
I just use this for charisma, I think it's pretty accurate.

Charisma:
6-7: repulsive, ugly, very suspicious, very rude, unapproachable, frightening
8-9: unattractive, reserved, gruff, rude, suspicious, fawning, nondescript, unsettling, stuttering, lacking confidence
10-11: average appeal, slightly self-assured, averagely approachable, somewhat personable, average looks
12-13: above average appeal, self-assured, above average looks, popular
14-15: appealing, confident, attractive, personable, popular, outlined personality
16-17: very appealing, very attractive, confident, very popular, striking, magnetic personality


And.. If you have 6-9 CHA, I think people should have a lengthy description explaining WHY they are that terrible to be around.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: LightlyFrosted on March 07, 2010, 06:05:39 pm
The guide that Patient Ox just posted actually seems to be a fair summation.  At that level of CHA, you don't need to have ALL of those things - but one or two should be prominent.  Similarly, if you find that your character is much higher in one regard than their charisma implies - say, someone with a charisma of eight or so who's the smoothest talker in all the land - there needs to be some real consideration about perhaps adopting attributes from a lower CHA rating than you have.  The stat is an average of your ability to influence people; if you're stronger than you should be in one regard, chances are you're off-putting in another way.

In the end, I think the point needs to be that in an RP-intensive server like Layonara, there's really no such thing as a 'dump stat'.  There's no such thing as a free lunch, and pulling points from Charisma is no exception; you aren't the most intellectual brain around if your intelligence is six, no matter what you the player are like, and you aren't going to be sweeping all the girls off their feet with a wink and a wave if your Charisma is below ten - or realistically, below twelve.  Of course, you may not realise that you're so unpersonable - self-assuredness in skills or abilities you don't actually possess can certainly be off-putting - but if you're going to play yourself as smooth, it doesn't hurt to actually be smooth.

As a final note, if you're going to try to bluff your way into a heavily-armed encampment, it might help to have someone who's actually trained themselves in bluffing.. or persuading.. or has a charisma of greater than 8...
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: Patient_Ox on March 07, 2010, 06:59:03 pm
Quote from: LightlyFrosted
The guide that Patient Ox just posted actually seems to be a fair summation.  At that level of CHA, you don't need to have ALL of those things - but one or two should be prominent.


Yes, that is exactly how the guide is meant to be used. Glad you caught on to that.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on March 09, 2010, 09:42:06 am
Quote
repulsive, ugly, very suspicious, very rude, unapproachable, frightening


Only one or two? Cripes. I try to play Steel as all of those things, heh. Well, maybe not ugly, if you don't mind cobalt skin, scars, and pointy teeth.
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: lonnarin on March 09, 2010, 06:22:52 pm
Let's see.  Charisma is either my drop-stat or my main one.  According to each character, I'll list their mental stats alongside charisma.

Farros: 8 wis, 16 int, 22 cha
- Sort of a social blending, confident guy.  He tries to appease everybody all the time, compliment deity or alignment enemies and be entertaining.  Of course his low wisdom makes him seem a tad crazed and fumbling many social norms.  He just looks good doing it.  He has leadership skills, which only scare the sane further.  He is also very well skilled socially, which makes him fairly manipulative and well-spoken... except when his player entity has been drinking.  He is also very strange and frightening, wearing an executioner's mask with a tux and singing songs of doom with a macabre sense of humor... that is to represent his skald class a tiefling race.

Modern Equivalent: Johnny Depp, Voltaire (the band), Deadpool, Alice Cooper, Richard O'Brian


Annie: 20 cha, 8 wis, 12 int

Super cutesy, pretty little brownie in a sun dress.  Wanders from person to person talking their ear off, offering them ale and pie.  Her alignment prevents her from willingly mingling with overtly evil people, though she will still give them pie and pray for them.  Courtesy, love, understanding.  She is a bit naive in her pacifistic ideals, and often scold paladins for being "mean" to evil people.

Modern Equivalent: Kitty Foreman, Little Orphan Annie, your favorite aunt who always leaves big wet lipstick marks on your cheek at reunions


and now, the drop-stats!

Kurn: 6 cha, 8 wis, 14 int

While he seems to at least grasp complex subjects, his simplistic focus on violence and greed make him a very difficult dwarf to be around.  Often insults even his closest friends as a matter of social interaction.  Seems oblivious to the feelings of others; rather sociopathic.  Hygeine is a foreign concept to him as he's often walking around reeking of bad cabbage and covered in monster bits.  If he wasn't so useful in battle as a merc, he'd probably be hunted down by now.  He is very prone to outbursts of rage and violence.

Mondern Equivalent: Scarface, Blackbeard the Pirate, Yosemite Sam, Sabertooth


Grovel: 6 cha, 14 int, 20 wis

This one is very filthy and feral, often eating dead monsters and humanoids in front of the party in wolf form.  Goblins eat anything not nailed down and smell verily of poop and even worse aromas.  His only saving grace is that he is diminutive which can make his lack of social norms seem, cute in a sick way.  His sharp mind and wit however give him the cunning of knowing when to say the right things and when to act differently for better results.  He also has persuasion training, mostly from being wise enough to structure his arguments soundly, and not at all from his not-to-pleasant demeanor.

Modern Equivalent: Smeagol Gollum, Gurgi, our cat Squeaky


Fenthon: 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha

I play this one as savvy in what he wants to say and how he acts around others because he has keen observation and social skills learned.  His lack of charisma and wisdom is most seen in that he doesnt appear to notice when he is using words and terminologies too learned for people to understand.  He will start explaining the minute details of alchemical theory or medicine with a half-giant, who sits there dumbfounded and uncomprehended to the thesis paper of a paragraph that just shot over his head.  He doesn't knopw how to back away from a debate, and will hold up the party for hours as he and a priest debate theology for hours and hours, or political theory with the paladin. He can be rather cold to people on an emotional level, and outright scare them when they see him obsessedly dissecting foes in the name of science.  He is much patterned after both Hannibal Lecter and Jeffery Combs, so just imagine an overly smug and educated voice droning on and on in a very self-satisfied manner.

Modern Equivalent: Hannibal Lecter, Jeffrey Combs, Sweeny Todd


Bjornigar Ironguts: 14 int, 6 cha, 8 wis

Low personal hygeine with a hefty keg of dwarven gas at his disposal, he falls into that same muck-covered reeking category as Kurn.  As a LN mindset, much of his friction with others and his brash actions stem from an almost blind, Archie Bunkerish adherance to tradition.  Women should stay in the kitchen and raise babies, elfs is all dainty lasses, Halflins take yer wallet, a law is a law is a law, no matter how absurd, unemployed people just dont want to work, if you dont work, yer a bum.  He's basically a very grumpy old man who shakes his fist and tells you to get a haircut.  Oh, and his gluttony and obesity dont help much either.  He does however keep a good almost infinite stock of fine foods, so he's like that one fat hairy smelly guy you know who hosts great barbecues.

Modern Equivalent: Archie Bunker, Dom Delouise, Rockefeller, my dad
Title: Re: If Cha is your dump Stat.....
Post by: [b]MerlinAlpha[/b] on October 02, 2010, 03:16:56 am
Glad to see that for most this is common knowledge.
 
 I'd say that if you have both Wis and cha as low ranking stats, coupled with other skill points like intimidate. Your character would probably be a brute, rude and obviously not really know better. Can he learn to be better, if he has the Int for it, sure. But instinctively, nope. Now imagine a Barbarian with that! ^.^
 
 Fin: Wis 8, Cha 8, int 14. I play him as someone who has very poor people skills, who says what he thinks good or bad when ever, where ever (even more so if he is p****d at someone or group of people). But he has the ability to learn from his mistakes. And as someone has managed to see, he can open up and be less brutish than his usual.